you want changes? make a loud coordinated racket nicely i might add

you want hrothgar and vieras to be treated like a normal race?
you want housing to be better?
you want kaiten back or something else combat related?
are you tired of the glam system/want it to be better?
basically do you want the game to get better or changed?

BE NICE WHEN YOU DO THIS BTW WE DON'T NEED TO GET UGLY TO DO THIS AND IT ONLY HURTS OUR IMAGE

then you all need to come together and stop fighting amongst yourselves for no god damn reason, and make a coordinated loud effort let the devs and i can't stress this enough SE know that the community deserves to be heard from all points of the world, all skill levels (except the people who don't want to put bare minimum effort in cause ik somebody will bring that up), fashion fantasy players, RPers, etc... let them know we won't sit idly by while something thats angered almost every community (if you managed to piss off the JP players you did something very wrong) (JP EU NA etc..) like the kaiten removal (for good reason i might add). we want better communication between the dev team and the players, we shouldn't recieve radio silence after the massive outrage of kaiten removal, and immediately recieve an apology for overbuffing BLM in PvP when it happens that makes no god damn sense. and it would be nice and help them take a load off if they did poll players or something like that or only select groups that could represent certain parts of the game/communities

we need to come together and start a movement, get content creators in on it get a # started anything and everything. anyone who's willing to lend a hand would be appreciated. if we as a community want the game to be better and see changes made we as the community need to come together at least for this.

ik we're only a small group of people but that doesn't mean we can't expand try to get people from other nationalities to support us. this should be a worldwide movement since there's players all over the world who enjoy the game.

(i doubt anyone is willing to back this up or if they'll even read it. but hey there's my piece, and if you wanna get behind it and help be my guest. i have literally 0 idea how we'd do this but it's what needs to be done i suppose we could do something like #save TF2 but idk)

All true.

Also you will find people, likely on this forum who will argue against everything you think is beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

All true.

Also you will find people, likely on this forum who will argue against everything you think is beneficial.

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true but even they can't admit FFXIV is a perfect game or else everyone would play it (no game is perfect and doesn't need to be looked at or improved on) and even they should join this movement

You know the devs are Japanese, right?

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

You know the devs are Japanese, right?

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which is why you push for it to evolve into a worldwide movement. also jus cause they aren't english speakers (or i'd assume alot of languages) doesn't mean we should be getting ignored or any other nationality that they don't speak the language of. plus we can still send a message to SE who does have offices and teams over here.

thats like saying the devs only speak in hieroglyphics so might as well stop trying to improve the game or suggesting things fellas. we've breached the communication barrier before and in different ways and we can do it again

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

which is why you push for it to evolve into a worldwide movement. also jus cause they aren't english speakers (or i'd assume alot of languages) doesn't mean we should be getting ignored or any other nationality that they don't speak the language of. plus we can still send a message to SE who does have offices and teams over here.

thats like saying the devs only speak in hieroglyphics so might as well stop trying to improve the game or suggesting things fellas. we've breached the communication barrier before and in different ways and we can do it again

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This! I absolutely agree with this! In the past people had told me that the devs won’t listen to my request in adding the Garlean glam. But when I’ve heard of the Q&A on February, I immediately asked them if they’re going to add the gear in the future, and Yoshida said he will! And that made me SO happy after patiently requesting it for so many years!

So never give up!

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

which is why you push for it to evolve into a worldwide movement. also jus cause they aren't english speakers (or i'd assume alot of languages) doesn't mean we should be getting ignored or any other nationality that they don't speak the language of. plus we can still send a message to SE who does have offices and teams over here.

thats like saying the devs only speak in hieroglyphics so might as well stop trying to improve the game or suggesting things fellas. we've breached the communication barrier before and in different ways and we can do it again

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thats not even remotely a logical supposition to make based on previous patches, game improvements, and live letters. we aren't ignored, we just don't have a dedicated CM to play hold the hands of forum posters.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

thats not even remotely a logical supposition to make based on previous patches, game improvements, and live letters. we aren't ignored, we just don't have a dedicated CM to play hold the hands of forum posters.

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one word HEALERS

I am fluent in Japanese as well so I go to the Japanese forums, and really the tone is quite different with far fewer complaints and an ample amount of "self-policing" between users when redundant threads exist.
However, with the recent issue in Crystal Conflict and perceived over-powered condition of Black Mages, the forum erupted with multiple threads for the same issue with quickly escalating amount of pages... and many posts deleted by moderators.
That seems to have led to a fairly quick fix and letter from Yoshida-san.

I wonder if the quick fix was due to how it was the Japanese fans who erupted, and thus the whole "they listen more to Japanese fans" seems to warrant some merit.
I see far more critique in the English forums for sure (and many of these seem to be valid) but very few feedback (or moderator attention) from the development team.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

one word HEALERS

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and? saying that players aren't satisfied with the design of healers gameplay isn't as impactful a statement as you think it is. the kaiten changes that even you list are the result of feedback from the forums. they just weren't the changes that people wanted. and thems the breaks of game development.
and that not even pointing out that the largest MMO does the same thing with non english speaking players.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

and? saying that players aren't satisfied with the design of healers gameplay isn't as impactful a statement as you think it is. the kaiten changes that even you list are the result of feedback from the forums. they just weren't the changes that people wanted. and thems the breaks of game development.
and that not even pointing out that the largest MMO does the same thing with non english speaking players.

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so we should just sit back and take it? great logic. i guess when aliens take over i guess we should just roll over and take it. also an entire role being boring or worrying to the point even content creators are kinda wondering why yoshi-p ignores healer questions in their own personal Q&As isn't a big statement? yes it wasn't the change people wanted EMPHASIS ON EVEN JP PLAYERS WERE OUTRAGED SO WHERE DID THEY GEET THAT PEOPLE WANTED THE CHANGE FROM? but instead of explaining himself further or giving us a taste of what was going to happen to SAM they just took it out with nothing to show for it except "plans for the future" that they refused to elaborate on. thats exactly the kind of communication we should be against. that's how we get reworked SMN that feels barebones but is defended by saying "oh they'll add onto it in the future expansions" sure cause people wanna wait a year and a half for a fleshed out kit right? do i even need to bring up MNK? and how many times it's been changed before finally hitting a good ground? it's basically the ryze of final fantasy 14 at this point

The image or this forum is irrevocably broken due to past whinnins. Almost no one is unable to post feedback without directly addrees the devs and their work as 'lazy', 'out of touch' or 'garbage'. If I was a dev I will just plain ignore any post with such things.

If you want to be heard, stop feeding troll post, respect the developers as human beings and maybe you will be heard. Also, understand that asking for things doesn't mean they must be done just because you want it and accept that will not change.

I must add that this forum barely represents the player base. Probably way less than 1%. So, just for posting here doesn't mean that everyone in game want such change.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The image or this forum is irrevocably broken due to past whinnins. Almost no one is unable to post feedback without directly addrees the devs and their work as 'lazy', 'out of touch' or 'garbage'. If I was a dev I will just plain ignore any post with such things.

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Obviously resorting to insults isnt the way to go but you would be a bad dev if you did this.

I wanna be wrong on this because I got enough of it playing Korean MMOs, but I'm pretty sure they only make changes based on forum feedback when they see it on the Japanese forum. Every once in a while someone necroposts a <PROBLEM> megathread on the English forums from 2015 where there are hundreds of pages of people signing on to say they'd love to see an issue addressed, and the issue will be something super basic, but here we are still dealing with it in 2022. Meanwhile, Japanese players blew up the forums and accused Yoshi of BLM pvp bias and the game got shut down, like, a day later to make immediate job changes. Compare that to like... the english dps forums blowing up over kaiten changes and they won't even issue a statement about their intent behind it. Or the issues with packet loss, where people on NA/EU were complaining about the lag for ages and never got a response. Then it affected Japanese players and all of a sudden they got a lodestone announcement about it.

I agree with your sentiment that there needs to be a focus on the game as an international product. Lots of studios forget this. They go global, but they only want to listen to players who speak their language while ignoring their much larger audiences abroad and it results in the product falling apart. I saw this in Tera, I saw it in BDO, I saw it in Maplestory, etc. etc. People told me to come play XIV because this game was different, but the only area where I see a difference is that the devs actually play the game and seem to care about it. And that is nice. But the rest of it is the same song and dance. Stupid monetary policies (b2p + subscription + cash shop that sells things that should just be in the game, why), dripfeed of content, and no actual communication about game changes no matter how much people beg them for it. We're never given a window into like, okay, WHY did you remove kaiten. WHY did you remove lord/lady of crowns. WHY did you turn the cone aoe into a circle. It just happens and when we don't like it, we can go scream into the wind on the forum while it's ignored for 2 years.

If you want to see change when it's gotten to this point, you have to be willing to let go, I think. Know why AST keeps getting reworked? Because it's got lower numbers of people playing it than the other healers. That's it. WHMs and SCHs never seem terribly happy either, but they keep crawling back to the job and square doesn't actually read feedback; they just observe metrics and change things based on that. Notice how they're doing a DRG rework that every DRG is dreading? Why? No communication there. They're just doing it. Hope you like it! If you don't, no point complaining about it. Just play something else and hope that in a year they see those metrics and change it again. I seriously don't think they read anything here and this is all pointless. I want to be wrong though.

This is a good point. If you have a complaint, you should be polite about it. Developers are human and if their customers are always rude to them, why would they want to continue working for SE? If they continue working for SE, why would they want to listen to customers who are always nasty?

It's exactly that toxic relationship that has destroyed WoW. The constant criticism led to people quitting or not working there and the ones who remained no longer wanted to listen to their customers because they are always nasty. Ignoring their customers then destroyed the game. We don't want to do that here.

So in-game riot events? hash tag everything from forum threads to twitter posts with #ffxiv and whatever issue we want changed?

Maybe a mega thread would be a good idea rather then the constant creation of different threads with the same flavor. Being polite yes given much of what is posted by some is simply rude and derogatory towards the director and developers and game as a whole.

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Originally Posted by ElizanderNorisse

This! I absolutely agree with this! In the past people had told me that the devs won’t listen to my request in adding the Garlean glam. But when I’ve heard of the Q&A on February, I immediately asked them if they’re going to add the gear in the future, and Yoshida said he will! And that made me SO happy after patiently requesting it for so many years!

So never give up!

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All that proves is that the best likelihood of getting anything accomplished requires getting the ear of the lead developer and only certain people have that access.

Because we have to wonder if the general consensus of the forums ever reaches his ear or if it gets stopped before it gets to him.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This is a good point. If you have a complaint, you should be polite about it. Developers are human and if their customers are always rude to them, why would they want to continue working for SE? If they continue working for SE, why would they want to listen to customers who are always nasty?

It's exactly that toxic relationship that has destroyed WoW. The constant criticism led to people quitting or not working there and the ones who remained no longer wanted to listen to their customers because they are always nasty. Ignoring their customers then destroyed the game. We don't want to do that here.

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I would agree that it isn't necessary to be rude if someone has a complaint regarding the de team - except that the forum posts are typically not "rude" no "nasty" here, there's not need for hyperbole. There are literally hundreds of well thought out, constructive, and valid discussions that have been ignored. Note that I am not saying that every post should be acquiesced to - I am simply stating that there has been little or no acknowledgment that the feedback would even be considered.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would agree that it isn't necessary to be rude if someone has a complaint regarding the de team - except that the forum posts are typically not "rude" no "nasty" here, there's not need for hyperbole. There are literally hundreds of well thought out, constructive, and valid discussions that have been ignored. Note that I am not saying that every post should be acquiesced to - I am simply stating that there has been little or no acknowledgment that the feedback would even be considered.

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There are some rude posts. It's not hyperbole. I find the forum to be very negative a lot of the time as well. There is no reason that a criticism cannot be surrounded by positivity and appreciation for what is liked about the game.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

thats not even remotely a logical supposition to make based on previous patches, game improvements, and live letters. we aren't ignored, we just don't have a dedicated CM to play hold the hands of forum posters.

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There is also the problem of hundreds of threads that reach 2-10 pages, all about the EXACT same issue, rather than one giant thread that has all the grievances compiled in that easily searchable location.

Hrothgar hair, large thread has a CM response.
Unlocking hempen styles, larger thread with a CM response.
Eureka bots, many small threads no CM response.

There are definitely a lot more examples that can be found, but those are three that come to mind instantly when thinking about CM responses.

without a CM, it is unlikely anything posted here will go.. anywhere.

developers are unlikely to have the bandwidth to just peruse the english forums, and thats fine... because it isnt their job (I doubt many even look at the JP forums either). thats the job of the largely silent (if one even exits) Community Manager. could that be because of the general attitude here? maybe. but that is what they are hired to do. pass along player issues and concerns. the NA forums seems to be mostly people that complain about all aspects of the game however, and if something gets changed that they wanted, they then complain it wasnt REALLY what they wanted, it should have been this. so, listening to the NA forums seems to be mostly a lesson in futility

(yes, I believe the game has issues, I dont think its perfect, but, I dont see how making the NA forums "heard more" according to the OP will actually make the game... better)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There are some rude posts. It's not hyperbole. I find the forum to be very negative a lot of the time as well. There is no reason that a criticism cannot be surrounded by positivity and appreciation for what is liked about the game.

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Agreed, there are *some* rude post- the vast majority are not. In addition, if posts are negative in tone, that in itself is not problematic if there is a valid reason - i.e. there is a problem, a bug, a QOL issue, etc. So, for example I could post about a QOL issue and make a suggestion, it should be as per the forum guidelines. Will I typically add a "you guys are doing a great job I love this game each time - or words to that effect? No - but you do you.

As Kes13a posted, it's very unlikely that this posts are ever read directly by the dev team, it's most likely that they are first filtered by a CM. I would also expect that they are then filtered by someone else.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

which is why you push for it to evolve into a worldwide movement. also jus cause they aren't english speakers (or i'd assume alot of languages) doesn't mean we should be getting ignored or any other nationality that they don't speak the language of. plus we can still send a message to SE who does have offices and teams over here.

thats like saying the devs only speak in hieroglyphics so might as well stop trying to improve the game or suggesting things fellas. we've breached the communication barrier before and in different ways and we can do it again

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Except that this is a community forum. It's a place for the players to chat amongst ourselves. It's not a direct line to the devs. And before it's brought up; forum moderators are not developers.

so basically what i thought would happen people would just roll over and take it. good to know that games as a whole are never going to change

you bring up larger threads get recognition lets mosey on over to oh idk the FIVE HUNDRED PLUS PAGE STORY THREAD that has nothing said on it or the fact alot of people feel it was rushed/got the fan service treatment. or something that is actually well constructed and would be a huge benefit for the game that just gets ignored like my thread on advanced hall and expert halls since it only got like 3 pages of talk, it should just be ignored right? oh and you really wanna bring up the hrothgar hair issue? especially after seeing the fiasco of that? just cause it gets acknowledged doesn't mean it gets handled properly if at all. when modders DAY 1 can do their job for them it's a shit show. and something we should be worried about

once again unsubbing WILL not work they don't care if even 1% of players quit the game over something as trivial as hrothgar and vieras or kaiten or housing etc... they're still making plenty of money off bots and people who play this game like a single player RPG or a social MMOgame. notice it's not even worth being called an MMORPG anymore with how much the game tries to give players ways to just avoid everyone in the actual combat content. and no trusts are not "future proofing" content you future proof content by making them worth running, and fun or challenging. or allow people to have an alternative way to get caught up to the current main story WITHOUT spending money i might add.

yes there is no CM here, yes we have some doo doo threads, troll threads, etc... but thats gonna happen so does that mean the threads that are well thought out or actual pose good questions/problems should be ignored? should the hrothgar thread be completely ignored just cause hurr durr not JP thread? are you seriously sitting here and telling me you'd rather sit by and watch a game slowly degrade than even attempt to do something about it?

and yes forums are for people to criticize it and suggest things. YOSHI-P HIMSELF ASKED FOR KAITEN REMOVAL FEEDBACK HERE FFS. and also for people to get help which still happens in certain sections of the forum liek the DOH DOL sections. while yes moderators or CM aren't devs they should have an open channel with them or people who do if they don't speak japanese to bring up threads that are worth bringing up. it would literally be the easiest way to get feedback from across the world.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Except that this is a community forum. It's a place for the players to chat amongst ourselves. It's not a direct line to the devs. And before it's brought up; forum moderators are not developers.

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Then why does the "Leave a Suggestion" option in the Support Desk say "Feedback and suggestions regarding FFXIV can be posted on the official FFXIV General Discussion forums." if it's not meant to be a place where the devs can see it?

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

so we should just sit back and take it? great logic. i guess when aliens take over i guess we should just roll over and take it. also an entire role being boring or worrying to the point even content creators are kinda wondering why yoshi-p ignores healer questions in their own personal Q&As isn't a big statement? yes it wasn't the change people wanted EMPHASIS ON EVEN JP PLAYERS WERE OUTRAGED SO WHERE DID THEY GEET THAT PEOPLE WANTED THE CHANGE FROM? but instead of explaining himself further or giving us a taste of what was going to happen to SAM they just took it out with nothing to show for it except "plans for the future" that they refused to elaborate on. thats exactly the kind of communication we should be against. that's how we get reworked SMN that feels barebones but is defended by saying "oh they'll add onto it in the future expansions" sure cause people wanna wait a year and a half for a fleshed out kit right? do i even need to bring up MNK? and how many times it's been changed before finally hitting a good ground? it's basically the ryze of final fantasy 14 at this point

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None of that has to do with communication. It has to do with design choices and the playerbase doesn't get to tell the devs what to change and design. Blizzard stopped doing that years ago, and next to no game dev does it. so stop with the WoW tier hyperbole.
You wanna complain, go ahead. Theres tons of it on the forums.
The devs aren't at beck and call to explain their reasoning and appease you. They don't speak english, so we get less interaction, and not many game publishers or producers have dedicated CMs to speak to foriegn languages to make sure that they feel coddled the way the Western MMO audience feels.
You're just going to have to accept that for FFXIV, you aren't the most precious audience member.

WHAT DO WE WANT!? NOW!

WHEN DO WE WANT IT!? CHANGE!

I will say, something else that might help is getting someone to do a write up of our complaints in a clear, concise way. A lot of you people write mini novels on here about subjects you're passionate about, so we have a lot of people in the community who could help on that front.

Side tangent, people need to stop being weird about people criticizing the game or trying to shoot down things. People criticize things they love too, you know! It's not to crap on the game or anything like that. I think we all love this game, some just express it and verbalize it in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

without a CM, it is unlikely anything posted here will go.. anywhere.

....

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Can we possibly get someone that speaks Japanese & English (I know you guys are here!) to chime in on this on their Japanese social media or JP gen discussion? Everyone says they pay attention to those channels, so could be worth a try. Just need to keep it respectful!

A couple points Yoshi-P has made:

If you're going to try to communicate with the devs, please do so in a polite manner.
If you want them to actually know what's going on, provide subtitles. He's pointed out that they watch various feeds here and there and while the media tour was going on, highly recommended the use of subtitles.

I think we're going to get a lot of changes moving forward, just because we're not getting it today doesn't mean we wont' get it later down the line and that it isn't being worked on.
The graphical update alone is huge, I don't believe that they'll just stop at that the impression I am getting is that 7.0 is essentially going to be a fresh start of sorts.
So I am expecting more overarching updates.

It's not like they're unaware of issues like the glam system, they're fully aware of it and have mentioned it multiple times before.
So it's clearly something on their minds which I assume they'd want to get around to when given a chance in a reasonable manner.
It makes sense to make the big changes with 7.0 since EW was the conclusion of what started in 1.0, EW needed to be more cohesive with the rest of the game.
With 7.0 tho they'll have a lot more freedom in this regard to make the game look and feel different.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Can we possibly get someone that speaks Japanese & English (I know you guys are here!) to chime in on this on their Japanese social media or JP gen discussion? Everyone says they pay attention to those channels, so could be worth a try. Just need to keep it respectful!

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*raises hand*

The JP forums are far less active compared to the English forums for sure.
However, it seems like moderator attention is quicker there because when anything possibly defamatory / harassing is posted it is quickly deleted.
In contrast, personal attacks / snide remarks / negative comments about the devs are largely ignored in the English forums.

This makes me think that moderators definitely pay more attention to the Japenese forums compared to the English forums -- perhaps they are mostly Japanese people? (Yoshi P has said the moderation team is very few in number).

Another thing is complaints are very few in the JP forums and there's a lot of self-policing among the posters.
This can be a problem itself because people will start to hesitate stating their opinions, but I see a lot of "that has already been discussed in an identical thread posted 7 years ago <link>" etc.
Also, a lot of advanced apologies "I am so sorry if this has been discussed in the past, if my idiotic language upsets you I apologize in advance, may my ancestors forgive me for any possible trespass lest I shall committ harakiri..." etc etc.

However, in the recent case with CC and the "over-powered Black Mage" incident, the JP forums erupted with multiple threads about the topic. One thread was specifically "Requesting BLM Downgrade" which was pretty un-characteristically unpolite.
That thread received 33 pages of responses so far, and 83 posts have been deleted, especially in its early days. It seemed like moderators were always hovering over that thread to purge anything negative.
One post only mentioned "Yoshi P plays BLM so he must have been biased." and it was removed shortly after by a mod.

Even then, the amount of commotion resulted in news articles being posted in the media. This likely resulted in the whole letter from Yoshi P.