[Feedback] Scholar in Crystalline Conflict (Patch 6.15)

Hello everyone
I'm a SCH main CC player , my best rank is 48 in elemental (4424 points ATM).
After several games, I have some feedback.

Pre-announcement :
1. This post focus on CC only , FL is currently broken.
2. This post contains 3 sections, general issues, mechanic issues, and my personal suggestions.
3. Followed by 2, my the suggestions might not be accurate on numbers.
4. Due to the limitation , I will finish the rest content in reply.
5. Feel free to discuss and show your ideas here.
6. I am not English native , sorry if I make any mistake in advance :)

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Section 1 : General Issues
In summary , SCH is lack of potential to carry the team in solo matching.

The core of SCH is to pressure the enemies by giving debuffs to them and buffs to team.
However , the pvp meta is secure early kills and snow ball by chain CCs and bursts.

SCH is well performed in low rank games since players in low rank can't really corporate each other and manage to execute. Thus SCH can slowly pressure them to doom.
SCH is poor performed in high rank games, ppl know how to execute, yet SCH has 0 CC and burst ability to chain up.

As a healer, compare with other 3, SCH has no flipping chance.
WHM - LB and hex are game changing abilities, use them properly , ez fight back.
SAG - LB gives you everything , 99.8 % fight back is possible.
AST - instant heal (for saving teammates) , 75% slow, bind .. game changing LB (+30% /-30%)

short sum in section 1 : Don't climb in high rank on SCH, you cant carry low MMR team.
Try AST , you will find a new world.

Section 2 : Mechanic Issues
In summary, the mechanics make SCH a front , beside from range, and need the ability to see future for the next 4s.

As in sec1 , the mechanic of SCH is to spread shield / dots out for pressures, however ,
the "Deployment Tactics" charge 15s , so you'd rather wait for CDs (30s) to get dots and shield on or just pick one as favor.

Mummification is another issue , which lead SCH a front instead. Consider that there is no gap closing skill in SCH while others are flying all around the map ,
the cast range of Mummification make it hard to chain up with team , it can only counter play.
You need to "walk" to melee range and cast which is actually putting yourself in a sweet kill spot as a healer.

Expedient is actually a powerful skill , but consider it a 30s CD skill, the mitigation and sprint is kind of under, but after all it is fine.
The issue in Expedient is actually "Recitation", which should be powerful , yet it is a joke if you cast "Adloquium".

Adloquium , don't know where to start , 4000 heal / 4000 shield and grand 10% damage buff , can spread but don't expect it too much.
With Recitation it only become 4000 heal / 6000 shield ( what a joke). Spreading shield and buff sounds good ,
but in practice , you can just ignore the shield spread , since it is only 4000 shield, it is instantly absorbed before you try to spread it to be honest.

Limit Break, super powerful , game changing , over healing keep your team alive, only if you can predict where your team is going to engage 4 seconds later.
Try to imagine WHM cast lb , and 4s later the beam shoot out, AST cast LB and 4s later the buff arrive, SAG cast lb and the zone show after 4s.
You can't even move the position since the fairy is glued on ground.

Short sum in sec2 : No CC , no burst and you need to spend alot CDs for little benefits, you also need to be oracle to cast LB properly.

Section 3 : Personal Suggestion

1. Make LB instant effect the team after casting LB, I don't see any reasons that SCH need to be oracle.
2. Make LB fairy follow you , the fairy has legs and wings.
3. Remove Adloquium and add Succor instead.
4. Follow by 3, remove Deployment Tactics for spreading shield meanwhile.
5. Mummification should be range , or it worth at least 12k damage, 6k is a joke.

short sum : Fix the mechanic issues base on my personal opinions.

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Ending :

I like SCH both in PVP and PVE. Not sure so far about the pick rate and win rate for SCH , but I do think this job is under average ( I might be wrong tho).
In CC , it is currently DPS meta, a support job with no CC no burst no flipping LB is totally out meta.

So far I saw the community focus more on DPS jobs such as NIN and BLM, SCH is a low key job, not many attentions in the community , so I hope this post can ring some bells.

SCH is so low key that ppl realized it and Wintrade with SCH , haha. You know it , I know it , many Wintraders .
Beside WTers , I dont see much SCHs in Top 100 . So I think my viewpoint in this job might be accurate in some degree.


Last , thanks for reading this long post , again , I might no be right but feel free to leave a comment .

Best wishes , and may you all have a good climb.

Disagree that SCH is weak. It's just slightly behind AST in carry potential, far ahead of WHM and SGE... I don't even consider SGE a healer, it's just a DPS that happens to heal their chosen buddy with some of their spells (kind of like DNC.) Sorry for the book I'm about to write, but I see a lot of people bagging on SCH and I think it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how it impacts games.

I don't know or really care what "the meta" is. You can't pick your team, you can't pick your classes. So any "meta" arguments are meaningless outside of custom match context. What your team is going to want to do, what the enemy team is going to want to do against your team, is entirely defined by what classes you have and, when applicable, who the players are (I'm sure anyone that plays a lot of games knows some players to be total Leeroys that will absolutely dive early and often, others might be more careful and stick to cover, etc.) I've had a team that was AST SCH SGE PLD GNB. You think we were trying to burst and CC chain people down? LOL no, that's not even an option for us. Instead, we focused on outlasting the opponents, winning by making favorable trades and just wearing them down, and SCH is absolutely unparalleled in that. Assuming you're playing it correctly. I'd also argue that initial kills in mid, especially before the crystal unlocks, are *completely* meaningless. Whoever you killed will be back in 10 sec, long before you push the crystal anywhere meaningful, and with full mana and cooldowns. The only significant thing it does is deny ~12 sec of LB generation, but even that is rarely meaningful. Burst meta isn't really a thing. I've had at least a few dozen games that I can think of that we won by counter-pushing from 95% or worse. People get sloppy when they think they're about to win, and blowing a bunch of cooldowns to kill one person means you're all meat for their respawning buddies. Effective use of Guard and good positioning largely negate burst-focused gameplay. Or, hell, just making one player out to be the sacrificial lamb - cool, you blew your wad to dunk on one person, now what's left in the tank to deal with her friends with full cooldowns? It's *very* common in Dota 2 for teams to willingly take the 4v5 *and win* because that one person that died forced out so many cooldowns and abilities from the enemy team, and it's no different here.



I've played against 5 DPS teams and completely dumpstered them because of how damn good SCH is at wearing enemies down - as long as no one on your team is completely dumb and overextending against such a team, you can and *will* wear them down over time. 4k shields doesn't seem like much, but it is literally the difference between that MNK 100-0'ing your BLM or not (even moreso if they have Bio debuff on them.) Mummification doesn't seem like much, but when you only get 4 heals in total (not accounting for gradual mana regen), taking 25% off the top of each of them is a huge deal (not to mention reducing any personal shields or healing by the same amount.) If you have a SCH and they have a WAR, that WAR is going to be miserable because you absolutely gut their sustain - Mummification nerfs their shield *and* their self-healing, and then Bio takes it down even further since their healing is directly related to damage done - and then you also factor in that damage dealt to shields does not count towards life leech and it's even worse!

I don't think anyone will contest that AST isn't the strongest healer right now. It's frankly overpowered, entirely due to its obscene healing potential with Aspected Benefic double casting. The damage is good, too. Macrocosmos should probably be reverted to 8k, even. But WHM is by far the weakest healer in high skill. Between LBs, literally the only spell they have that's remotely meaningful is poly, and that's a non-damaging effect with a long cooldown and which doesn't even disable movement. I've literally walked way from kill attempts if they didn't also layer a bind or heavy in on top of it. It's extremely good for punishing Leeroys and other greedy play but it's not really that great at setting up kills against competent teams, at least not compared to what other healers get. I'd honestly rather have AST's damaging heavy->bind AOEs than poly. And I'd rather have Mummification than poly.

If you think SCH is weak, either your DC just has a severe lack of other healers and tanks (SCH wants teams that are focused on durability and attrition and particularly wants a DK on the team to stack with Sole Survivor), or you're honestly not playing it to its full potential. Make sure you're pre-buffing before the gates open - anywhere from 2-5 sec left on the clock, and pop Expedient as swift sprint ends/as your team runs down the ramp into mid so that everyone enters combat with 5-6 sec of +10% dmg and the shield plus auto sprint and the DR buff. Try to look for an opportunity to land your buffed Bio on an enemy and spread it, or even set yourself out as bait to try and get them to come to you. If the enemy hangs back and you can't safely play bait (some teams simply have too much burst potential), burn the recitation on a buffed spreadlo to refresh your team's buffs instead.

Always try to keep Bio up on multiple targets if fights are relatively even. If your team is winning, you should spreadlo instead of bio spread to keep pressing your advantage - +10% dmg across your entire team is *massive.* In those cases, Bio based on who will suffer the most from -10% damage: enemy DPS at or about to have LB, enemy WAR or DRK reliant on damage for self-healing, enemy DPS that you know to be more competent than the others, etc. Keep Bio on cooldown, and always try to keep at least one Adlo on your most effective DPS. 10% damage up is an enormous benefit, try to prioritize a DPS either in their LB (BLM, GNB, etc) or who is likely to use theirs soon (MNK, DRG, SMN, etc.) Don't be afraid to use both charges of Adlo proactively - it's not a very good spell as actual healing (8k total recovery makes it the weakest of the bunch, though at least it doesn't have Cure 2's cast time), though sometimes it's just barely enough to save someone's life when they're guarding.

Mummification has a very short range so you need to know when it's safe to sprint in and throw it out. Obviously you want to try and hit as many enemies as possible with it (not just the kill target) because of the obvious synergy with Bio. I don't think it needs more damage or a range increase. At most, I would maybe bump it to 35% healing reduction, but I don't see it as necessary. And Mummification+Sole Survivor is already insanely oppressive. Even AST can't outheal incoming damage when they're under 45% healing down and Recuperate is worthless. Mummification is generally best used after the enemy team is engaging other targets, or when you're planning on being bait. Adlo yourself (ideally spreadlo your team), run in and guard right as enemies get into attack range (~25 yd.) Position yourself during guard to where you can tag your team's designated targets, and try to hold Expedient to pop as you exit guard. Even if you die, you buffed your team beforehand, you landed a Mummification on the kill target plus likely any others nearby, your team is buffed with Expedient, and in an ideal scenario you also got bio on a priority target (ideally spread, but that's a lot of GCDs and oGCDs to fit in while you're getting pummeled and trying to spam Recuperate.)

If you aren't in the top half of damage done every game, then you did something wrong or the game was such a one-sided stomp you simply didn't get enough opportunities to bio the enemy team. SCH should always be in the top 5 DPS for the game and should often be one of the top 3. Remember that your raw damage output is a primary reason to play SCH over any other healer - SCH is all about that attrition. Many classes can do 30k+ burst in 2 GCDs plus oGCD, and two ticks of 4500 damage puts many classes dangerously close to being gibbed by those burst combos... and that's from a single player, not a group. It's easy to dismiss dot damage as meaningless filler, but that's just indicating a fundamental misunderstanding of how it drains heals out of the enemy team that they would otherwise have in the tank. More times they have to run away to potion or risk not having enough healing left to survive a burst, etc.

Ult is tricky to use. I do agree they should sharply reduce the "startup" time for it. I don't think it should be instant, but the ~3-4 sec it currently is is pretty ridiculous, especially since buffs are snapshot when you cast it, not when Seraph actually appears. Seraph disappearing when you die and not moving from her place is the primary balancing factor for what is otherwise an *absurdly* overpowered ult. Remember that SCH's "actual" healing is likely 30-40% higher than what's displayed on the scoreboard (since your own healing by Recuperate spam will obviously be dramatically inflating that amount) since half of all of your healing is shields, and shields are not added to the tally. Seraph puts out a *ridiculous* amount of healing and shielding during her 20 sec duration and fighting in her AOE is almost certainly a losing battle unless you're already ahead or you can quickly kill the SCH. That said, it can be worth it to pop Seraph even if you will be moving outside of her healing range - Excog and Seraph Flight are very, very strong buffs and Consolation stacks with Adlo, meaning your team can enter the next fight with 10k shields, one-time CC immunity, and an 8k Excog. And they can always flee back towards Seraph for healing if needed.

Remotely competent players will *immediately* target you the second you pop Seraph. You should plan on immediately ducking into guard, or cast it from a safe position and run out of LOS as soon as you throw her out. Be *very* careful of enemy NIN, MNK, or DRG with LB available - nothing feels worse than popping Seraph only to immediately get dunked by the MNK or neck snapped by the NIN (and it's easy as hell to miss DRG's death puddle in the middle of a hectic fight, I usually just try to watch their LB gauge and assume they're beelining for me if it's suddenly empty.) Though as long as you get your team with the buffs and you survive long enough to get the Consolation and Recitation buffed move off, it's not really the end of the world if you die - especially since they almost certainly had to blow multiple cooldowns to kill you, which are now no longer available to fight your buffed teammates with. In most cases, it is *not* advisable to sit on Seraph and wait for "the perfect moment." Toss her out even if it's only just you and a buddy that will get the initial buffs. Because she sticks around for a while and is healing throughout, it's okay to throw her out early if needed.

SCH is also excellent at hugging the point and delaying with Seraph. As long as you don't have to burn all of your heals just making your way in, between Expedient, two adlos, and Seraph constantly pumping out healing while you're turtling, a solo SCH can stall the point for a surprisingly long amount of time as long as the enemy team doesn't have full cooldowns available as you run in. I've won a *LOT* of games by just straight up stalling the point with Seraph out while my teammates respawn. The enemy team *must* use cooldowns to kill you, which means they won't have them when your respawning teammates initiate on them. In an ideal scenario, pre-buff with adlo, Expedient before you get into range, spread bio on the enemy team, and mummification as you hit Guard. You want to maximize the amount of healing and cooldowns you can drain from the enemy team while you stall.

Nah, man. SCH is fine. I don't think it needs any changes at all, frankly. I'm not sure about your DC, but there's at least 3 players on Crystal top 100 that I know are SCH mains (not counting me), and another dozen or so that I know play SCH regularly (primarily healer mains that play all four.) Maybe your DC is super super DPS-heavy and light on healers and tanks. SCH works perfectly fine in 4 DPS teams, but it really excels with tank and healer heavy teams where it can maximize its attrition pressure. I don't think I've had a single game in the past three or four hundred where I felt like SCH just wasn't able to pull its weight. All of my losses have been from teammates throwing (including me) or from the enemy team just plain outplaying us. I've never felt like SCH was just too weak to be meaningful. I honestly think the class is on the ragged edge of being overpowered, if anything. Maybe you haven't had any games with a good DRK? Sole Survivor stacking with Mummification is just dumb.

Thanks for your reply , but to short , what you were talking are all on papers .
About the pre buff before battle it is a case by case . Usually ppl won’t YOLO before the crystal unleashed.
So if you pre cast too fast , enemies will just stay back for 7-8sec since they can see your buffs status.
And when the fight start you are in CDs .
Edit* and you were saying early kill worth nothing yet you pre buff even before the game start ?
I disagree to your points since you are making the whole issue ideal in your side.

Let’s go through some of your points:
1. Try to keep dots on all target

It sounds good but don’t forget , if you spread shield once , you need to wait a full 15s for dots spread.
Which lead to my mechanics issues .

2. SCH should be top damage in match

The better your team is , the less damage you will make . If you really know how SCH work ,
You will understand this statement.
But I will explain for you , if your team execute well , enemies die before your dots makes damage
If your team burst well , you’d rather spread shield and damage buffs.
And if the enemies are also good , the will spread beside stick together.

3. Sage is not healer

In this point I do agree with you , but as long as it is green I will compare it
The LB has super carry potential and it can adjust the position once.
What I was talking is that SCH is lack of carry potential.

Short sum : I don’t think your view points are full , they seem narrow and take case by case .
And in elemental, SCH used to be top 1 lmao, it end up the SCH top 1 had super lucky 30+ games
with DCed enemy (which is also SCH, same server and same FC ) ha ha ha .

Honestly, I'm thinking players on Elemental just suck if they're getting 100-0'd as quickly as you're making it sound. Are they just leeroying in every single time or something? You can't get burst down if you don't overextend and make actual, effective use of guard and purify. If that's the case, yeah SCH will be weak. But you shouldn't be able to goomba stomp from player to player unless they're all just awful.

You should always be keeping a spread for Bio. You are better off spreading Bio than spreading Adlo in most cases. Just single target Adlo on the players that will make most effective use of the buffs (which can include you.) Like I said, it's not a very good heal so you should primarily be using it proactively.

I pre-buff because there is literally no reason not to. Early kills don't matter that much, but there is literally no reason not to pre-buff. It's one of the biggest mistakes I see other SCH players make, even the others in top 100. *ALWAYS* pre-buff. You can get 6-8 sec of Catalyze by time your team reaches the field (depending on map, route, specifically when you buff, etc), enough for an initial opener if an enemy presents themselves. Your second charge of spread will be at ~8 sec. So you're going into mid (or around) with 6-8 sec of Galvanize and Catalyze, 10 sec of Expedient, and you'll have 15 sec of Recitation. If enemies hide, that's fine - just spreadlo the recitation on its last second or so. You'll have both charges of spread by that point. Then just spread Bio when an enemy appears. This is stuff you should have learned long before you reached top 100.

Honestly, dude, I can only assume that players on Elemental are really, really bad if you're seeing every game just be nothing but goomba stomps to the point that you can't make effective use of Bio and SCH in general. Also, Seraph is a *lot* better than Mesotes. Like, it's not even a question of which is better.

True. SCH wouldn't be the top DMG dealt if your team and the opposing team are decent.

SCH is a very heavy support oriented job, very much team-dependent like BLM pre-buffs. Its not a bad direction imo, just lacking in things compared to other healers, especially AST and WHM.

Eventhough SGE is not technically a healer, its LB is actually a death zone for melee and absolute area deny for ranged, an extremely strong support LB. Mesotes is the strongest area control LB imo.

I think more healing potencies on Seraph should help, just full on stalling power like what the devs intended.

You shouldn't be top damage, no, but you can easily place top 3 if you're spreading properly and being active. If you're not in the top damage, then either the game was a stomp or you weren't spreading bio enough. If the game showed rDPS instead of flat damage, SCH would probably be top damage in every single game. And probably near the top in healing, too.

Mesotes is good but there's so many ways to deal with it. The only hard part is how badly server ticks can screw you over with it (attacking someone that just left it will still ping off because the server hasn't updated their position yet, etc.) You can't really deal with Seraph other than just choose to not let them fight in her very large healing AOE. She already does a ton of healing, giving her more healing would be incredibly overpowered.

SCH doesn't need any changes. I really don't want it to become the next FotM overpowered bullshit.

I see how perfect SCH is in your mind , which you can’t answer most of the issues .

My standing isn’t 100-0 in initial but early kills by burst and CC chains .
By insulting other data centers won’t make you better IMO.

And about the spread dots/healing issues. Ofc the priority of damage is greater than shield .
But what if you see a up coming AOE damage (such as dragoon LB )?
There is always occasions that you need to spread shield , and after that you will have to wait for CDs
which in my case this is a mechanical issue.

About pre-buff issue it is a case by case topic, not more to say . But pre buff before the gate even open in 2-5s ?
I have nothing to speak with this , before you engage , your “pre buff” expired if the enemy only have eyes to see the UI.
All they need to do if they see you pre buff this early, which is stay back a bit .

LB yes , it is powerful but please tell me which LB in all jobs are not powerful?
The main issue I am talking is , the limitations of casting SCH LB properly needs to have the ability to see what future likes.
There are tons of cases that your team is under severe damage and your LB helps nothing before they die or retreat.
There are tons of cases that your LB casted but the enemies pull back in 4 seconds.
Compare with other jobs , I see no reason why SCH has the 4 second limitation in casting LB.

Once again, I need to emphasize,
SCH well performed in low rank games since low rank players can’t corporate well.
SCH poor performed in high rank games since high rank players know how to CC chain and burst well.
And I well speak more details in this standing .
The current match making system will pair you lower rank teammates if your MMR is high
which lead the result that high MMR SCH need to support a low MMR teammates
and not much you can do, since SCH has no burst no CC and no gap closing abilities.
Compare with high MMR NIN, RDM, BLM
They can follow low MMR team and execute well, or simply execute well by themselves .

You might kept argue about my points, but the truth is there are so few SCH in each Data center that reach top 100.
Even that you mentioned there is at least 3 in your DC (btw which I cant confirm) ,
but there are 100 slots dude ! How is 3 not an issue ? Not to mention top 30 , are there even SCH ?
Try to see some high ranked matches more and tell me if I am wrong , or perhaps in your mind you see two SCH in most of the games.

The pick rate and win rate of SCH so far base on my personal observation it is lower than average, but yea , I might be wrong.
But check the wolves league every week , do you see SCH ? This is one of the proof that stands with my statements.

Last, there are still many mechanic issues I mentioned, yet you kept focusing on Bio which I have no concerns in this skill.
and stop insulting other data center. I also used to be top 100 in my DC but I am currently 4k MMR and the line in my DC is 4.2k.

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Originally Posted by Cytus

I see how perfect SCH is in your mind , which you can’t answer most of the issues .

My standing isn’t 100-0 in initial but early kills by burst and CC chains .
By insulting other data centers won’t make you better IMO.

And about the spread dots/healing issues. Ofc the priority of damage is greater than shield .
But what if you see a up coming AOE damage (such as dragoon LB )?
There is always occasions that you need to spread shield , and after that you will have to wait for CDs
which in my case this is a mechanical issue.

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It's no more a mechanical issue than AST needing to manage their Double Cast charges, or anything else any class does. I guess I don't see where you're going here. Maybe you aren't managing your cooldowns effectively?

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About pre-buff issue it is a case by case topic, not more to say . But pre buff before the gate even open in 2-5s ?
I have nothing to speak with this , before you engage , your “pre buff” expired if the enemy only have eyes to see the UI.
All they need to do if they see you pre buff this early, which is stay back a bit .

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And then you just rebuff again and it's the same. SCH has literally 100% uptime on their buffs, you can't just wait it out. Expedient has an actual cooldown but you aren't going to pop Expedient automatically when you know there's competent, coordinated players that will just wait it out (which isn't something you see in literally over 95% of games.)

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LB yes , it is powerful but please tell me which LB in all jobs are not powerful?
The main issue I am talking is , the limitations of casting SCH LB properly needs to have the ability to see what future likes.
There are tons of cases that your team is under severe damage and your LB helps nothing before they die or retreat.
There are tons of cases that your LB casted but the enemies pull back in 4 seconds.
Compare with other jobs , I see no reason why SCH has the 4 second limitation in casting LB.

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1 or 2 sec would be fine, 4 sec is definitely too long. Needing to "see the future" is just what we call game sense, man. It's something that comes with experience and game knowledge. You usually need to cast Seraph early, and that sucks, but there's a delay before Mesotes takes effect, too, and Celestial River has a *really* long cast animation before it pops off - it's damned near as awkward to use as DNC ult.

If enemies pull back, it's not a problem. Seraph Flight and Excog are buffs, Consolation has a 20yd AOE (the size of a raid boss arena) and doesn't care about LOS, Seraph herself has a 30yd range on her hugs and I'm *pretty* sure they ignore LOS (I've been hugged by Seraph while sipping behind a wall, but maybe that was just really bad server delay.) Injured players tend to pull back to heal and potion or chase down a medpack, anyway, and that will put them back into hugging range for Seraph. It's something your team simply adjusts to.

Like, all of your complaints so far are literally just "learn to play the class," man. They're things that all classes have to deal with in different ways. AST less than most, but I think we're all able to admit that AST is overpowered, and overpowered classes shouldn't be the measuring stick you use.

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Once again, I need to emphasize,
SCH well performed in low rank games since low rank players can’t corporate well.
SCH poor performed in high rank games since high rank players know how to CC chain and burst well.
And I well speak more details in this standing .
The current match making system will pair you lower rank teammates if your MMR is high
which lead the result that high MMR SCH need to support a low MMR teammates
and not much you can do, since SCH has no burst no CC and no gap closing abilities.
Compare with high MMR NIN, RDM, BLM
They can follow low MMR team and execute well, or simply execute well by themselves .

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There is no MMR in this game whatsoever. None. Rank and even crystal credit are not very good at estimating player skill.

SCH is terrible in low skill games, because its strength is entirely in how effectively your teammates leverage your buffs. Incidentally, this makes SCH exceptional for "burst them down" games because it's a guaranteed 10% buff and 4k extra HP for everyone on your team with 100% uptime. If your games are such that everyone is constantly getting goomba stomped, then SCH should be top tier. AST would still be above it because AST is overpowered, but think of how good The Balance is. Now realize that SCH always gets The Balance and has 100% uptime on it instead of 75%, and it gives your teammates 5-10% extra HP. Yeah, SCH bad, sure, whatever.

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You might kept argue about my points, but the truth is there are so few SCH in each Data center that reach top 100.
Even that you mentioned there is at least 3 in your DC (btw which I cant confirm) ,
but there are 100 slots dude ! How is 3 not an issue ? Not to mention top 30 , are there even SCH ?
Try to see some high ranked matches more and tell me if I am wrong , or perhaps in your mind you see two SCH in most of the games.

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Top 100 is a terrible basis to use because it has nothing to do with player skill. Some of the dumbest, most incompetent players I've ever seen are in the top 25 on Crystal. They got there early and have stayed there by abusing overpowered classes (I know of three that gained over 2000 pts from riding 6.11a BLM.) They are, of course, better than some random bronze or silver newbies, but they aren't what I would call "good." They make tons of mistakes. Hell, dude, people here would probably agree that Top 100 means nothing because I'm in it, too lol.

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The pick rate and win rate of SCH so far base on my personal observation it is lower than average, but yea , I might be wrong.
But check the wolves league every week , do you see SCH ? This is one of the proof that stands with my statements.

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It's 6 teams in a single tournament for a new game. Its data will be meaningless and impossible to draw anything substantial from. We'll need several wolves league seasons before we can make any kind of firm assertions about the balance or design of anything. Have you followed professional games before? What is meta now will become old and obsolete in the next season even with no changes to the game in-between, simply because players discovered solutions to the meta and beat it. Then that becomes the new meta, players discover new counters, etc. The process repeats, without any changes from the developer at all.

We need several cycles of that (ideally without major dev changes, but we know that won't happen) before we can really have firm data to work with. For now, I would just enjoy watching the games and not try to pull too much from them.

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Last, there are still many mechanic issues I mentioned, yet you kept focusing on Bio which I have no concerns in this skill.
and stop insulting other data center. I also used to be top 100 in my DC but I am currently 4k MMR and the line in my DC is 4.2k.

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What mechanic issues? You don't like having to use Deployment on Adlo, I guess? And we agree that Seraph takes too long to wake up and start doing her job. But what else is there?

I'm commenting on the DC because it's highly likely that people play differently on different DCs, and the way you describe your games (where people are constantly getting 100-0'd over and over) makes them sound like low skill games where no one on either side knows how to position themselves well, is unable to predict enemy target swaps, etc. If you are proactive with guard, position well, don't stand in LBs, etc you will never get 100-0'd without forcing the enemy team to drastically overextend - at which point your team should easily punish them and you might even survive (especially with the bonus HP from Galvanize.) Obviously no one can play perfectly at all times, and I make plenty of mistakes in the course of a night of games, but if people are *constantly* getting burst down... IDK what to tell you other than it sounds like a skill issue.

Kind of funny and sorry I am not very good at using quote (the UI seems buggy by phone)

You yourselves said should spread dots as many as possible yet you said the 100% up time for team shield and damage buffs?
What is this ? your Deployment Tactics CD in 7.5 seconds ?
Did you even read before you type? THIS IS THE POINT , you can't 100% up time on both Shield and Dots.

You kept saying learn to play by telling others are bad don't make you a better player.
AND AT WHAT POINT DID I SAID 100-0 it the issue ?
The case in High rank is -> initial -> defending (Purify / Guard / Self Regen ) -> another CDs up and kill ( with CCs and good burst cooperation) ------> which in this case is a early kill , not 100-0 dude, can you not read?
Which , SCH has no burst no CCs and no gap closing to chain up with team by using the only burst like skill "Mummification".

AND THERE IS MMR for REAL, did you not play Ranked?
A 4k MMR is way better than a 500 MMR player. Please don't tell me you are good but you cant rank up becoz there is no Rank MMR .

About the mechanic issues, I mentioned them clear and fair, if you don't get my point , let me repeat it for you
1. Deployment Tactics CDs 15s , which makes it impossible to have dots and shield spread 100% up time.

2. The Expedient is fair , alittle under but good enough , the main issue in this case combine with Expedient and Adloquium.

3. Using Deployment Tactics for shield is dumb , since the shield worth 4k only and during fight it can't fully goes 4k ( you will be under attack and the shield decrease/ fully absorbed before you try to spread)
so in this , my personal suggestion is remove Adloquium and add Succor instead, this way both Spread Shield issue and Deployment Tactics issue solved.

4. Limit Break is awkward with the 4s limitation.

5. Mummification has good side effects , yet the range makes this skill awkward. It should worth more or the using limitation should ease, since there is no gap closing for SCH.

6. No flipping potential and hard to save teammates ( compare with AST -> instant heal , compare with WHM -> hex for help etc.)


And stop teaching me how to play by telling all the skills on paper, I know well how to play SCH and I did about 1k games in high elo Crystal already.
I'm not here to brag or talk about how good I am or try to suppress ppl by MMR or ranking, I talk only the facts and logical descriptions.
Hence, the evidences you say " SCH is perfect" and try to against my standings are all base ON YOUR SAYING , you show no proofs and no logical descriptions.
(I did offer some logical descriptions and wolves league is just one of my proofs.)
All you say is , damn SCH full buff 100% up time and 100% dots up time(which is impossible btw) , ez maxxxxxx damage in matches , if can't maxxxxxx damage = you sucks L2P .

My whole post is not whinnying for SCH, I'm showing that SCH has some issues and if these issue can be solved, the gameplay and game experience will boost.

I'll stop argue with you for all your standing seems fragile and lack of logical descriptions.
Since you said early kills lead a 10-12s deny LB charge is meaningless, I should stop arguing with you.
Everyone in Crystal Rank should know the whole games are actually playing around with Limit Break , yet you said it is meaningless.

Last , stop insulting people, it really make yourselves clown. We as a human should talk in reasonable and logical way.
My reply to you ends here , I'll not make anymore comments with you .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cytus

Kind of funny and sorry I am not very good at using quote (the UI seems buggy by phone)

You yourselves said should spread dots as many as possible yet you said the 100% up time for team shield and damage buffs?
What is this ? your Deployment Tactics CD in 7.5 seconds ?
Did you even read before you type? THIS IS THE POINT , you can't 100% up time on both Shield and Dots.

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Right, you pick one or the other. I find dots to be better for spread, and just buff specific teammates as needed. But you can do the inverse if it would work better for you. Or you can save and do both at the same time to maximize pressure in exchange for being weaker for one cooldown cycle. It fluctuates based on the match, you are never doing just one thing always no mater what.

You were the one saying early kills was the meta, I was explaining how if that's the case then SCH is literally god tier because you can always have 100% uptime on team buffs if desired. Yeah dw about the quote thing, phb is pretty old forum software and was developed way before smartphones were a thing. I'm surprised it's even readable on phone lol

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You kept saying learn to play by telling others are bad don't make you a better player.
AND AT WHAT POINT DID I SAID 100-0 it the issue ?
The case in High rank is -> initial -> defending (Purify / Guard / Self Regen ) -> another CDs up and kill ( with CCs and good burst cooperation) ------> which in this case is a early kill , not 100-0 dude, can you not read?
Which , SCH has no burst no CCs and no gap closing to chain up with team by using the only burst like skill "Mummification".

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If someone has used both Guard and Purify and puts themselves in a position where they can be initiated on again, before they are back up, then they not good players - straight up. Or they are a good player who made a mistake - but a good player who repeatedly makes the same mistake isn't a good player. If both of your "don't die" skills are cooling down, you play defensively. You stay out of range of Blota, out of range of Miracle of Nature, etc until you know they have been used. You keep track of if the PLD can shield bash, how many times the MNK has dashed recently, etc. You stay near a corner so you can LOS the BLM or BRD if they swap to you, and so on. It's straight up PEBKAC stuff, man.

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AND THERE IS MMR for REAL, did you not play Ranked?
A 4k MMR is way better than a 500 MMR player. Please don't tell me you are good but you cant rank up becoz there is no Rank MMR .

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Crystal Credit is not even remotely close to being MMR, man. Like I said, if a clown like me can be top 100, exactly how valuable is that metric? Not at all, I'd say.

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About the mechanic issues, I mentioned them clear and fair, if you don't get my point , let me repeat it for you
1. Deployment Tactics CDs 15s , which makes it impossible to have dots and shield spread 100% up time.

2. The Expedient is fair , alittle under but good enough , the main issue in this case combine with Expedient and Adloquium.

3. Using Deployment Tactics for shield is dumb , since the shield worth 4k only and during fight it can't fully goes 4k ( you will be under attack and the shield decrease/ fully absorbed before you try to spread)
so in this , my personal suggestion is remove Adloquium and add Succor instead, this way both Spread Shield issue and Deployment Tactics issue solved.

4. Limit Break is awkward with the 4s limitation.

5. Mummification has good side effects , yet the range makes this skill awkward. It should worth more or the using limitation should ease, since there is no gap closing for SCH.

6. No flipping potential and hard to save teammates ( compare with AST -> instant heal , compare with WHM -> hex for help etc.)

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You should not be using Adlo on someone that is currently being hit by the enemy players. You should shield someone who is *not* being targeted but who is in range to spread to all of your teammates. I often just target myself, unless I'm the one being focused. Adlo is a terrible recovery heal (hence your point #6 which is one of SCH's main weaknesses), you use it pretty much for the buffs and shield. There will be times where you might need to double Adlo someone to keep them alive but 16k healing over 2 GCDs is rarely enough anyway. I don't think Adlo needs any buffs. 6k * 5 = 30k shields going out. That's a ton of extra HP you're giving to your team. I agree that it's normally better to use Rec on Bio, but boosted Adlo is good too as long as you're spreading it. It's terrible single target, I agree, but that's fine.

Mummification is fine. It gets so many kills with good coordination. SCH lacking a dash and it having a short range is its primary balancing factors. It's often best used together with Expedient so you don't have to waste any GCDs on sprint, but there's a lot of ways to make good use of it.

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And stop teaching me how to play by telling all the skills on paper, I know well how to play SCH and I did about 1k games in high elo Crystal already.
I'm not here to brag or talk about how good I am or try to suppress ppl by MMR or ranking, I talk only the facts and logical descriptions.
Hence, the evidences you say " SCH is perfect" and try to against my standings are all base ON YOUR SAYING , you show no proofs and no logical descriptions.
(I did offer some logical descriptions and wolves league is just one of my proofs.)
All you say is , damn SCH full buff 100% up time and 100% dots up time(which is impossible btw) , ez maxxxxxx damage in matches , if can't maxxxxxx damage = you sucks L2P .

My whole post is not whinnying for SCH, I'm showing that SCH has some issues and if these issue can be solved, the gameplay and game experience will boost.

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SCH is already perfectly fine. It needs absolutely no buffs, nerfs, or changes other than reducing pop-up time for Seraph. Other than that it is perfect. Pick rates and win rates are **HORRIBLE** data points to use from a balance perspective, especially if we're using such a tiny data set as top 100's, and even moreso when we're talking about a system *which is not skill-based matchmaking.* I *really* don't want to see SE making unwarranted buffs and nerfs to classes based on how popular they are, that's how you ruin your game faster than any other method. It's horrible mentality.

I've literally told you where you're wrong on your points but apparently this doesn't count because... you disagree with what I'm saying? Nothing you've said is completely true. I've literally provided examples of exactly how it's not true, how what you're saying isn't how it actually is, or how what you're saying is a player skill issue (probably) rather than an "actual" issue. I honestly don't know what you're asking for, man.

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I'll stop argue with you for all your standing seems fragile and lack of logical descriptions.
Since you said early kills lead a 10-12s deny LB charge is meaningless, I should stop arguing with you.
Everyone in Crystal Rank should know the whole games are actually playing around with Limit Break , yet you said it is meaningless.

Last , stop insulting people, it really make yourselves clown. We as a human should talk in reasonable and logical way.
My reply to you ends here , I'll not make anymore comments with you .

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12 sec delay in LB in a 6+ minute game isn't really that important. *When* you kill people matters a great deal more than *that* you killed them. Killing someone when you can't even push the crystal, or can't make progress pushing it because of some other reason, isn't terribly meaningful except if it allows you to kill more players. But as I've said in a previous response, just because it's a 4v5 now doesn't mean that your team has the advantage. If you spent a lot of mana and cooldowns to make that cool, your team is more than likely *at a disadvantage* because the enemy team still has most of theirs. Even more so when the person you killed is back on the field 12 sec later with all of their cooldowns reset. I've won a ton of mid fights by watching a teammate get dumpstered, we back off, and then push back when the teammate arrives and the enemy still hasn't had time to potion up yet because we keep harassing them - and we know we're safe to harass them because they used a bunch of cooldowns killing that one teammate. Sometimes a death is actually an advantage, if your team is able to take advantage of the resources the other team had to use to kill that player.

I haven't insulted a single person or DC this entire time. Saying that someone is not skilled, or is not skilled enough, is not an insult - it is a statement of fact. People on these forums really just want to take everything as an insult, yet want to have their opinions taken seriously? This is a competitive game. There will be a point where the only objective answer is "you are not good enough" (because you don't understand why you're mistaken, you are unable to perform the solution to your problem, etc.) That *is not an insult.* It's a statement of fact. It's something you can remedy if you are willing to put in the effort and are willing to accept that you may be mistaken on something.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I haven't insulted a single person or DC this entire time. Saying that someone is not skilled, or is not skilled enough, is not an insult - it is a statement of fact. People on these forums really just want to take everything as an insult, yet want to have their opinions taken seriously? This is a competitive game. There will be a point where the only objective answer is "you are not good enough" (because you don't understand why you're mistaken, you are unable to perform the solution to your problem, etc.) That *is not an insult.* It's a statement of fact. It's something you can remedy if you are willing to put in the effort and are willing to accept that you may be mistaken on something.

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i still think that you said "Honestly, I'm thinking players on Elemental just suck" are too much? haha
do not drag entire DC to this LOL

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Originally Posted by StriKE_SC2

i still think that you said "Honestly, I'm thinking players on Elemental just suck" are too much? haha
do not drag entire DC to this LOL

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I was being facetious, but maybe humor doesn't translate well to text. Besides, they were acting as if every engagement in every game was nothing but chained goomba stomps, and that kind of gameplay is something you typically associate with low skill play or games where people otherwise aren't really trying to win (casual queue is very common for this.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I was being facetious, but maybe humor doesn't translate well to text. Besides, they were acting as if every engagement in every game was nothing but chained goomba stomps, and that kind of gameplay is something you typically associate with low skill play or games where people otherwise aren't really trying to win (casual queue is very common for this.)

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Well actually i understand both of you.

the "Chained goomba stomps" shouldn't happen in high level game. yes i agree. people should know to reset / retreat waiting for next 5v5.

But in Cytus's point i think its because she play with low level crystal? maybe she is 4k playing with 4 of 100-500 crystal. it may happen that they have tunnel vision. went in and die one by one. and SCH dont have power to return-sweep / make a big impact. (for example SAM,DRG,AST that can turn a tide of the battle sometime)

So i think cytus's point is it's hard to do a rank game because once you are in high rank you have to pair with lower rank. and SCH lack of ability to solo carry 4 ppls (compare to other class)

Sure SCH is good if you play with all good player but SCH just cant do something like other healer can do.

i'm sure if play with all 4k+ crystal player. things will be easier. but Matchmaking balance just mix with low rank : /

but yes. do not assume all DC. elemental is one of the DC that have highest top100 floor (4.2k) and one of the most active DC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StriKE_SC2

Well actually i understand both of you.

the "Chained goomba stomps" shouldn't happen in high level game. yes i agree. people should know to reset / retreat waiting for next 5v5.

But in Cytus's point i think its because she play with low level crystal? maybe she is 4k playing with 4 of 100-500 crystal. it may happen that they have tunnel vision. went in and die one by one. and SCH dont have power to return-sweep / make a big impact. (for example SAM,DRG,AST that can turn a tide of the battle sometime)

So i think cytus's point is it's hard to do a rank game because once you are in high rank you have to pair with lower rank. and SCH lack of ability to solo carry 4 ppls (compare to other class)

Sure SCH is good if you play with all good player but SCH just cant do something like other healer can do.

i'm sure if play with all 4k+ crystal player. things will be easier. but Matchmaking balance just mix with low rank : /

but yes. do not assume all DC. elemental is one of the DC that have highest top100 floor (4.2k) and one of the most active DC.

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Right, I get that, but I would be in the same boat and I disagree that SCH is weak or can't carry. A good Seraph will absolutely carry a game - her healing output is *absurd.* And if you're with low rank crystal teammates, you are also going to be *against* low rank crystal players, which means they aren't going to be pushing effectively, won't be coordinating well, etc - all things that SCH can take advantage of. I would take SCH over WHM every single time in crystal, whether low tier or high tier, because it's simply better at carrying and more effective. And AST is better still, but AST is overpowered so I don't think it's a good point of comparison. SCH doesn't have any CC effects, but instead they have tons of buffs and debuffs. Sort of like how SGE doesn't have CC, instead they have 32k burst AOE every 30 sec.

I've noticed both you and them have conflated crystal credit with MMR though. You do realize that it has nothing to do with player skill, right? It's not MMR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Right, I get that, but I would be in the same boat and I disagree that SCH is weak or can't carry. A good Seraph will absolutely carry a game - her healing output is *absurd.* And if you're with low rank crystal teammates, you are also going to be *against* low rank crystal players, which means they aren't going to be pushing effectively, won't be coordinating well, etc - all things that SCH can take advantage of. I would take SCH over WHM every single time in crystal, whether low tier or high tier, because it's simply better at carrying and more effective. And AST is better still, but AST is overpowered so I don't think it's a good point of comparison. SCH doesn't have any CC effects, but instead they have tons of buffs and debuffs. Sort of like how SGE doesn't have CC, instead they have 32k burst AOE every 30 sec.

I've noticed both you and them have conflated crystal credit with MMR though. You do realize that it has nothing to do with player skill, right? It's not MMR.

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i understand that. and i also experienced that too

for example : I have a friend who is really good in feast , also in CC too. around 5-6k assume he's playing SCH. and i'm also 6.6k BLM. when we matched against each other.

assume
My team
Me as a 6k , the rest of my team are 0-1000

My friend's team
Him as a 6k , the rest of his team are 0-1000 too

i ended up win the game quite fast. because in same level BLM have carry potential more than SCH. and i play more than 2k games on my main not include my smurf account. its happen a lot.

i get your point btw, SCH have carry potential but compare to many other class. still lack of carry potentials. SCH are more passive make the game easier for team and harder for opponent. but SCH didnt do a KILL SHOT / GAME CHANGER SHOT.
it's a part of design and i understand it. it's just give SCH player a hard time to grind in high rank a bit.


i hope you get my point.

Right, SCH can't carry as hard as some classes. That isn't a problem in need of fixing, though. Just because a class can't carry a bunch of bad players in solo queue doesn't make it a weak class, and suggesting that we buff classes like that - which are perfectly fine and quite effective with competent teammates - is how you get overpowered, broken bullshit. I've seen it happen in countless games, buffing non-meta picks not because they are weak, but because they are unpopular for one reason or another. And then those now overpowered picks become dominant and form the new meta.

It's terrible game design and I don't think we should be encouraging it here.

I enjoy playing SCH, but I agree with everything you said. The team buff and enemy debuff is very nice on paper, but given how CC matches work, coupling lack of burst damage with lack of crowd control and lack of movement is just... No.

And yeah, if you use your dot well you can be well-placed in the damage table. However, that is all AOE dot damage, the least useful type of damage you can have.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

And yeah, if you use your dot well you can be well-placed in the damage table. However, that is all AOE dot damage, the least useful type of damage you can have.

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Every single point of damage has to be healed.