DSR observation: PLD Sheltron does not block while stunned

After another night in Dragonsong's Reprise with my static, we decided to mix up cooldowns in order to save my Hallowed Ground for a future mechanic. Where I was previously using it on the tether'd Shield Bash buster during Strength of the Ward (first trio), I've begun using Sentinel+Sheltron instead, with an Oblation from my co-tank and other mitigation that my healer's could spare. However, my group has already discovered an issue with this.

Sheltron, or Holy Sheltron in 6.0, is PLD's quick mitigation tool akin to DRK's The Blackest Night, GNB's Heart of Corundum, and WAR'S Bloodwhetting. It gives a small regen to the PLD, a 15% damage reduction for 4 seconds, and increases block-rate to 100% for 8 seconds (block inherently has a 20% damage reduction) on top of the first. Sounds really nice, and like it would work perfectly for something like the Shield Bash+Holy Blade Dance busters during the first trio, which has an initial very strong hit, and several rapid-fire weaker hits after the first few seconds.

Issue being, PLD's do not block while they are stunned. I have witnessed it over and over, when I use Sheltron, I always blocked the initial hit from Shield Bash, but never the stack damage from Dragon's Rage, nor any of the sword cleaves from Holy Blade Dance. The 4 seconds of damage reduction from the initial Sheltron typically fall off around the end of the Holy Blade Dances if I time it very carefully. But there's been times I didn't time it right and missed the button, got stunned, and just died to the damage. When I did time it right, I still dropped tremendously lower than my co-tank, who was also using their cooldowns for their own tether.

While we can heal through this damage given warning, it still feels rough that PLD just cannot utilize one of the core elements of their kit to mitigate an otherwise extremely powerful attack. I don't want to go back to using Hallowed Ground for this mechanic just because one of my mitigation tools doesn't work for an incredibly specific criteria, which none of the other tanks have an issue mitigating for. It feels like an oversight, or a kick in the knee because I'm playing this one tank, and not the others.

yikes, i was gonna say maybe u r using it too early, but that is clearly not the case

that is quite the bummer, im a warrior there and i cannot use my short CD at an ideal time because i need it up to take the next buster, so im getting a GCD shield and haima from my sage healer

it is downtime there, ask for some love from ur healers! i doubt this stun no block is going to get fixed, hell it might even be intentional :(

maybe it's just me but I wouldnt expect it to block if i was stunned... just seems like common sense.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

maybe it's just me but I wouldnt expect it to block if i was stunned... just seems like common sense.

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It is, but at the same time it means PLD is the only tank to have a disadvantage there since all other unique tank cooldowns don't have that issue.

Sheltron has always been kind of a nuisance because increasing block rate rather than giving flat mitigation like all the other tanks is inherently flawed. Enemies that crit can’t be blocked (diabolos in dun scaith) or while you’re blocking you can’t parry. Not to mention PLD has the least options for personal mitigation of all the tanks having one less personal CD and the longest recast invuln.

Unfortunately the best advice I can give is: work around it.

I don’t know the fight or your strat so I can’t give any specific advice but, maybe use sentinel + rampart and use sheltron later in place of a rampart. Or have the other tank take the Buster with a buffed intervention instead.

Both tanks take tethers during P2 so cannot have other tank take it, both need to mitigate through it.

While the easiest solution is have 1 tank invuln tether, other uses some mitigation, then on P3 tethers, other tank uses their invuln and while you kitchen sink where blocking will work.
Of course, OP said that isn't an option, so guess they'll have to make do without blocking under the effect of down for the count.

Sounds like something they should fix after replacing clemency with an ogcd

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

Sounds like something they should fix after replacing clemency with an ogcd

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Umm, no. It should either be changed into a simple mitigation tool that perhaps, as a hidden effect, prevents any further blocks, or guaranteed blocks should be allowed to affect crits and work even while stunned well before Clemency would need to offer an extra ~3k free healing per minute to a job that already does nearly 5900 free healer per minute (between Holy Shelltron and Shock-Conf-Combo healing per GCD) -- assuming the latter would even have any reason to be added at all, which is more than unlikely.

Yeah, get rid of all those pesky situational skills, they are bad design. Also PLD rotation should be fixed to be strictly in line with buff windows. No cursed openers either, remove FoF or make it affect Confiteor combo, which should always be a DPS gain on the 60s timer. With that you don't need those silly holy-holy-holy-holy repetitions just to keep the dot lined up, you can make the magic combo a single burst button, maybe even combine it with Req. Also Passage of Arms is objectively the worst party mitigation, just make it a reskin of the standard Dark Missionary style mitigation already.

Wait, why are there 3 Warriors suddenly? With the actual Warrior being the least homogenized? How did this happen? All I did was remove jank.

Shelltron is not "situational", Thorne. It merely suffers from a glaring oversight. You could more reasonably complain, even, over guaranteed crits finally getting alternate contribution from crit buffs instead of nothing -- the latter of which, btw, is Shelltron's contribution against crits, for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It is, but at the same time it means PLD is the only tank to have a disadvantage there since all other unique tank cooldowns don't have that issue.

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It was always at a disadvantage since they homogenized tank's defensive kits but kept the way block works the same.


I said this back in Shadowbringers already but if Paladin doesn't have any more mitigation than every other tank, since they changed Block Rating/Strength to be hard capped at 20% and removed a bunch of it's other defensive options, then Shelltron 100% needs to just be flat mitigation.

After Stormblood we no longer had access to Awareness or higher Block rating from gear which meant that Shelltron was simply inferior to every other short mitigation cooldown, because the way this game calculates damage means it completely ignores block when you're either stunned or the damage is critical.

The discussion in the thread got really interesting to me, so I'd like to come back to this post.

With the changes to DRK and WAR following the release of Shadowbringers, I felt those two classes had their identifies fundamentally confused.

Going into tank identity specifically:

Warrior was the king of stance dancing in Stormblood, being able to open with 5 DH/CRIT Fell Cleaves to guarantee agro stayed on them, with some self-healing on the side, and the ability to gain a very quick gauge-related damage mitigation by swapping back to their tank stance for a short period. Not to mention the Vengeance+Inner Release damage you could commit on mobs during dungeon pulls.

Dark Knight was the dungeon king. TBN was very nice for mitigating damage, but giving you a charge of Bloodspiller in exchange for losing some MP made healers AND tanks happy. Rotating between Grit's Blood Price, and Darkside's Blood Weapon, spamming Abyssal Drain to just keep yourself alive. It felt extremely unique. It felt like you were just role-playing Guts from Berserk.

Paladin's game was the rigid rotation and focusing on the party more than yourself. Cover was by and far the most useful cooldown you could ask for in Alphascape's Savage tier. Free 20% damage mitigation on a 2 minute cooldown that didn't require haphazard agro swaps (which could be dangerous back then since Shirk was a 3 minute cooldown, AND a role action). Block could mitigate up to 30% of damage, and only needing auto attacks to charge meant it was up basically whenever you needed it.

And then, Shadowbringers release.

Warrior became more unga-bunga focused, with healing as their damage mitigation. Dark Knight BECAME an unga-bunga class, with flat mitigation (and magic defense!) for the party. Paladin remained more or less the same, with Cover being defaulted to an emergency button and no longer a third cooldown. Tank stances were all stream-lined, thus Ninja lost a core part of it's identity. Agro reduction moves were removed from the game. Tanking became DPSing with a slightly easier rotation and a boss looking at you.

Because all the other tanks are focused on mitigating damage, or recovering from the damage taken, it does feel odd that Paladin has never had some kind of major addition like the other two tanks have. I think this Sheltron issue with DSR was a rather big oversight, since it feels odd that the poster-boy tank for this expac would be estranged from a tank mechanic while all the other tanks can handle it just fine on their own. I'm aware that my healers could just buckle down and help me, but they really shouldn't have to. And I shouldn't have to swap to a different tank just to make their lives easier for one mechanic.

The easiest solution to this is going to be to remove Block from PLD altogether, and make Sheltron/Holy Sheltron's primary effect be a flat 20% DR instead. They might rename passive parry procs on PLD to blocks to retain the aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The easiest solution to this is going to be to remove Block from PLD altogether, and make Sheltron/Holy Sheltron's primary effect be a flat 20% DR instead. They might rename passive parry procs on PLD to blocks to retain the aesthetic.

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I feel like the easier solution is allow you to block while stunned...

People will ask to be able to Parry while stunned next. And then for parry to mitigate magic damage. Block is really an old throwback to when PLD didn't have self-sustain built into its rotation. It's an antiquated advantage that the job has been grandfathered into, but now that you're thankfully drawing focus to it there's a reason to standardize the mechanics such that it's fair across all tanks. Good work.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People will ask to be able to Parry while stunned next. And then for parry to mitigate magic damage. Block is really an old throwback to when PLD didn't have self-sustain built into its rotation. It's an antiquated advantage that the job has been grandfathered into, but now that you're thankfully drawing focus to it there's a reason to standardize the mechanics such that it's fair across all tanks. Good work.

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Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Paladin pay for the blocking through having 1 less personal mitigation CD than the other tanks?

No, they pay for it by having one extra raidwide mitigation CD than the other tanks that also doubles up as a personal Rampart.

Passage of arms is such a fucking disappointment.

Pld just needs another once over by the dev team.

Have whole devteam make new characters and lvl pld no bonuses no roulettes, really put their old-world pld design to the test.
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Passage of fkn arms… at least it looks cool can yeah it’s another tb soak that nobody needed and looks cool af

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Originally Posted by Amenara

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Paladin pay for the blocking through having 1 less personal mitigation CD than the other tanks?

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They kind of did in ShB by having 0 self heal outside of Clemency. This got remedied in EW so now they just have an extremely clunky CD in PoA.

Our group runs WAR/PLD and we also ran into this problem. We resolved it by having me (the WAR) use Nascent Flash on the PLD during that set of tankbusters while I use Holmgang. I believe any tank composition can work around Sheltron by using The Blackest Night/Intervention/Heart of Corundum/Nascent Flash on each other, rather than on themselves.

I'd like to refrain from debating whether or not Sheltron and blocking should be adjusted; I just wanted to provide a possible solution in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I feel like the easier solution is allow you to block while stunned...

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It doesn't even need to be a change to block as a whole, only when that block is literally "guaranteed".

It shouldn't then be guaranteed except if CCed or if the attack is a critical hit. It should just be guaranteed.


If that means feigning a block (actually preventing blocks during the buff, but offering the %mitigation a block would normally provide), so be it.

I don't think you can block, dodge or parry while stunned in any MMO.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

I don't think you can block, dodge or parry while stunned in any MMO.

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I don't think I've ever seen a steel wall collapse just because its creator was briefly distracted sometime after its creation.

The question still just comes down to whether one skill should have two unique disadvantages without any relevant compensation elsewhere in its kit.

The base block chance is mere sustain over time, as unreliable and thereby unlikely a source of survival at a key moment as Soul eater, and irrelevant to any discussion of active mitigation, let alone the 15-to-25s on-demands.

Why not change the text from a "100% Guaranteed Block Rate" to "Block Most attacks with 100% chance to avoid Critical Hits"

That way the old Awareness Skill is baked in and it becomes a more useful Dungeon Cooldown with a unique effect. It wouldn't be shocking when you are stunned and unable to Block either.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Why not change the text from a "100% Guaranteed Block Rate" to "Block Most attacks with 100% chance to avoid Critical Hits"

That way the old Awareness Skill is baked in and it becomes a more useful Dungeon Cooldown with a unique effect. It wouldn't be shocking when you are stunned and unable to Block either.

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While definitely an improvement it still wouldn't solve the issue of Shelltron being flat out worse than Drk's, WAR's and GnB's equivalents when you're stunned. Now this wouldn't be a big deal in a world where all tanks had their unique stengths and weaknesses. But with the current tank design, where they all more or less have the same defensives, Paladin is the only tank with this issue.

This is the main reason why jobs become progressively more homogenized over time.

PLD has an additional passive block proc effect on top of the standard parry that no other tank has access to as part of its aesthetic. People fixate on a singular case where block doesn't work. Block gets completely removed next expansion and replaced with %DR effects on Sheltron. Players next expansion are confused over the sudden homogenization. I'm all for the 'unique strengths and weaknesses' approach, but people have to buy into that mindset first.

That RNG block value is unreliable over-time sustain at best, though. Why should otherwise standard active sustain (by way of mitigation or added simple eHP and healing capacity) suffer for what is most alike, functionally, to Souleater's heal (appreciable only vaguely and over time).

"X must have a dysfunctional active mitigation tool because part of its passive/unreliable sustain is handled uniquely!" Not because Paladin has uniquely high passive/unreliable, but simply because it looks different. ...Why?

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Originally Posted by ZiziT

Our group runs WAR/PLD and we also ran into this problem. We resolved it by having me (the WAR) use Nascent Flash on the PLD during that set of tankbusters while I use Holmgang. I believe any tank composition can work around Sheltron by using The Blackest Night/Intervention/Heart of Corundum/Nascent Flash on each other, rather than on themselves.

I'd like to refrain from debating whether or not Sheltron and blocking should be adjusted; I just wanted to provide a possible solution in the meantime.

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My group came up with a similar solution, where we just moved around CDs so I had some more up for the tether. Thank you for the input though, and I'm glad you guys were able to find a work-around!

Forgive me to pull up the discussion again, I think it is still somewhat relevant.

In my opinion, three things could / should be done without straight up axing Block as a mechanic.

1.) Passage of Arms needs a rework.
I'm aware this will earn me the most ire, but hear me out. Passage of Arms is a cool skill and I think having an additional group mitigation (in intention at least) would work - if you could continue attacking while it is deployed.

That's right, I'm suggesting to make it work like [Temperance], but with a smaller radius (10-12y around the PLD).

• * Crystalline wings are deployed (and maybe a somewhat visible circle to signify the range) on the Paladin
• + is no longer cancelled from doing other actions
• + self-mitigation effect unified to be -15% (optional with change 2b)
• - reduce duration to 6-10s at most, keeping Dark Missionary / Heart of Light more relevant as the long-term mitigation

On paper this would not change how much personal mitigation PLD has, but it would make Passage of Arms a lot more attractive to use.

2a) Block passive/Guaranteed Block adjustments.
For similar reasons why Guaranteed Critical Hits / Direct Hits have gotten the bonus damage from having excess Critical Hit / Direct Hit stats or raid buffs (something they seemingly forgot for cap speed weaponskills / spells like Heatblast)...

I believe it would be nice if your passive wouldn't deactivate when using Passage of Arms and (Holy) Sheltron and instead would merge into essentially a "Superblock". Say you get a block proc by the system while you had a guaranteed Block deployed, you'd get a superblock which would be... 30%? 35%? Definitely a significant amount of mitigation to make up for not having the heal / shield passive the other three tanks bring with their combos (Storm's Path + Souleater heal, Brutal Shell Heal/Shield). I'm unsure about Parry so I'd just leave it there.

Also please let us block critical hits again. Doing Ultima / Bahamut on Paladin and timing an already 4-seconds duration Sheltron perfectly only to be greeted by two(!!) critical hits in a row is a real gut punch without the Awareness effect.

2b.) Alternative: Change Guaranteed Block to standard mitigation
Boring change but I guess it would "work". It would also help alleviate Paladin's inability to block DOT damage, but I can't speak on how important this truly is especially in conjunction with Change #1 regarding PLD's mitigation budget.

A simple solution is to have Sheltron (Lv. 35) written with:

"Block incoming attacks while reducing damage taken by 20%."

This way, it gets an added missing personal mitigation without bloat, and block functions as usual with a fallback when it doesn't. Would also fix cooldown timings from lack of personal mitigation at lower tiers.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Forgive me to pull up the discussion again, I think it is still somewhat relevant.

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(Quote cut down so I could reach size limit)

Passage of arms, I 99% agree with you currently I think it's just such a miserable janky ability, for the duration I actually wouldn't mind if it lasted longer then 10 seconds, I think because it's already on a Long CD of 120 instead of 90 (obviously PLD also has DV), that it's fine + It's missing a personal mitigation, So I actually think even making it around 12-15 seconds and increasing it's range a little more wouldn't be a Issue, PLD already lacks personal mitigation I think having a strong party wide makes it more appealing.

Your block changes are fine, I think current Holy shelltron is fairly fine, but the situations where it's not blocking properly such as Dots, stuns should be changed so PLD mitigates it normally.

Overall heres how I'd view changing PLD, in it's "defence"
Right now, when balancing tanks I believe we have to fairly be sure that the damage isn't far from each other but, I do believe just by balancing things it's going to fairly be impossible to balance tanks damages to the same values and have the same mitigation value, I think (Personally) PLD should be slightly behind GNB/DRK (With how current damage values are), not to say PLD should be far off at all.

Personally I think just placing PLD above the other tanks doesn't really solve everything, I rather PLD be slightly lower (we're talking in 1% of each other here), but also have a strong niche in good defensives and party support, instead of just making PLD this high DPS tank (Current PLD should be top dps). I think they generally need to do more then just "address" it's raid buff issues as PLD has a lot they should work on and give it a defined spot with the other tanks.

Keep in mind when balancing Jobs, (again) it's going to be impossible to have all tanks do the same damage/mitigation, but also have them be unique. I believe making sure DMG isn't too far off but also having it where certain jobs can excel in certain small areas is fine, as long as the balance isn't far off as damage is generally the most important thing about any job.