Craftsmanship/Magic craftsmanship

Hello General discussion!

Today I am quoting a whole bunch of stuff from the Weaver forum!
Whilst this may seem a little counter productive believe me I do have reasons!

I'm am Armourer and if I hadn't used the search function I wouldn't have found the thread. The topic covers all crafts so deserves to be out here!
I also believe that if the thread was in general discussion there would be a lot more feedback!

But anyway, here we go -

I'm trying to find out which recipes are physical recipes and which are magical recipes so I can gear myself accordingly.

Mikita has this to say:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikita

A friend who is a R50 weaver told me that when the primary shards required are
- Fire, Earth, Wind then the recipe is Craftsmanship
- Lightning, Ice, Water then the recipe is Magic Craftsmanship

I'm just taking his word for it. ^^

---

Which was very nicely responded to by VenusDoom

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenusDoom

I have also wondered/experimented alot with Craft vs. Magic Craft and think there may be truth to the idea of shards dictating the type of a particular synth. However, my opinion is a little different from above. Please note that the following suggestions are just observations from my own time spent weaving, I have no "hard evidence".

For example, undyed cloth (which takes only earth shards) seem easily done with a +Craftsmanship setup, assuming you are the appropriate rank. Dyed cloth, which take earth shards AND water shards, seem more difficult with the same craftsmanship setup, even at the appropriate rank. Swap out a few pieces of Craft gear for Magic Craft gear, and the difference in rate of successful actions is pretty noticeable on those dyed cloths. I've noticed the same with undyed vs. dyed leathers in Leatherworking as well.

My opinion is this: Let's use Wine-Red Velveteen as an example. This synth takes 15 earth shards and 5 water shards. Assuming the theory is true, that would hint that our synth is largely physical with a bit of magic required, almost like a sub craft. Stack a good amount of Craftsmanship with a moderate amount of M.Craft, and you'll see better results than going 100% in either direction, or going heavy on M.Craft and light on Craft.

As a R.50 Weaver with a full Craftsmanship setup and almost no M.Craft, I was wondering how I could still hit critical fails trying to HQ Cotton Yarn (~r.12?) and lose ~20 durability despite the huge gap between my rank and the synth's rank. Cotton Yarn uses lightning crystals, which are under our proposed magical category. Switched in only one or two M.Craft pieces and voila! Much easier, even using only Bold Synthesis.

This would also help explain the use of Main/Offhand tools (other than to produce different HQ results). Generally mainhand tools favor Craft and offhand tools favor M.Craft. If you have a largely magical synth and a poor M.Craft setup, switching to the offhand tool with greater M.Craft seems to help boost success rate (or at least it seems to me).

It would also explain why the majority of Alchemy synths (which use alot of water and lightning shards) seem to go better with Magic Craft setups.

Anyway, if anyone has any observations or suggestions regarding the shard theory (or any other theories) let's hear them! Crafting is such a huge part of the game, it would be nice to have some more info to work with.

---

Although Tymora seems to believe otherwise with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tymora

Varies by item family, no other tricks to it.

All threads are magical, but if you use offhand you end up getting x2 instead of +1.
All cloth are physical. (It used to be all dyed cloth are magical).

For finished items, it might go like:
All Robes are XXX.
All Doublets are YYY.

Just test with the cheapest member of the item family.
No time to do extensive tests. Sometimes I can't tell the difference either.

---

Which is then followed up by this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Monkor

This seems to be holding true so far for me.

Cotton yarns crafting well on the wheel, switching over to cloth and using the wheel (trying that first since primary is lightning shard) yielded many unstable lightning elements during the craft, and some near-breaks. Switched over to needle and absolutely no problem.

---

But is this all there is to it?
What do you think, General discussion?

Finally a good Topic for a General Discussion.. i found this a while ago and found it very interesting:

Quote:

---

Just to throw this out there (it may be blatantly obvious or i may be way off...) but the relation of attributes to crafting was given to us not long ago. It went like this:

Class Main Hand Tool Off Hand Tool
Carpenter VIT DEX
Blacksmith STR MND
Armorer VIT STR
Goldsmith DEX INT
Leatherworker VIT INT
Weaver DEX MND
Alchemist INT PIE
Culinarian MND PIE

Now, perhaps the Craft vs MagCraft issue boils down to non-Mag vs Mag attributes respectively. This would be to say, anything using STR, DEX, or VIT would be affected by Craftsmanship and anything using INT, MND, or PIE would be affected by MagCraftsmanship. So Carpenters would benefit from Craft+ gear, whereas Alchemists would benefit from MagCraft+ gear. This would also be to say that Goldsmiths would benefit from Craft+ gear when using their main hand and MagCraft+ gear when using their off hand (according to this). What say you to this?

---

I think they changed Main hand, off hand to the Quality/Quantity, before I believe it did vary by synth as to which one was more effect. Though I think the increase in "quality" for using the right tool is still there.

As to how Craft, M.Craft works, I always imagined it came down to the type of synth you are performing, so if you are making an axe it would be craftmanship, however if it was a wand or scepter etc, it would be M.Craft.

I can however believe this:
- Fire, Earth, Wind then the recipe is Craftsmanship
- Lightning, Ice, Water then the recipe is Magic Craftsmanship

Because you have something like Sarnga which uses wind/ice to make which would come from both sides meaning you would have to balance out both attributes to get the most out of it. It would be nice to get some confirmation on it all though since the information from crafting does seem to be outdated lol. Such as this lovely piece of outdated information lol
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...e/craft01.html

Quote:

---

Treatises
Some recipes will be accompanied with the name of a treatise such as Fletchery Training or Chainweaving Training. While synthesis can be conducted without first obtaining these books, the durability of the items used during crafting will drop significantly with each command. Treatises can be purchased in guildshops with guild marks.

---

Interesting that the elements are put together like that

Current elemental wheel dictates that Fire, Ice and Wind are in one triangle along with with Water, Earth and Thunder in another

It would be good to know what the clear line is between Craftsmanship vs. Magic Craftsmanship (and even Main Hand vs. Off hand). I thought about doing tests myself, but am not even sure if they are finished with modifications to the crafting system (as long as I see 'dated' recipes, I think they are not done).

I was secretly hoping they would get rid of Magic Crafstmanship and have only Craftsmanship, or even get rid of Off Hand and have only main hand. But the new Militia equipment they release is Off Hand tools with Magic Craftsmanship stats, which suggests both aspects are here to stay.

Given the 'randomization' of results, I really think it would be fair for us to be told:
Recipes that have 'this' in it, are magical, the rest are not.
Recipes that have 'this' in it, are best used with off hand tool, the rest are not.

So there is no doubt on what we are doing so we can focus on just doing it well ^.^;

From your quote:
- Fire, Earth, Wind then the recipe is Craftsmanship
- Lightning, Ice, Water then the recipe is Magic Craftsmanship


But then, Ivory Staff uses:
Fire Crystal, and Wind Shard

This would suggest that the 2 Handed THM Weapon is not magical...


Likewise, THM 1-Handed Wind Brand and Ice Brand use Fire And Wind crystals.

Well that's just it, isn't it.

We don't know if it's actually magical or not!
The item would suggest it is but we've no proof whatsoever!

I always just figured craftmanship was for anything physical in nature, such as base armors and raw materials, while magic craftmanship was for anything magical in nature, such as scepters and staves, circlets and rings, mage armors and anything "magical" in nature, such as polishing raw elemental rocks.

Of course, that would be an absolute nightmare to test compared to the crystal hypothesis, because whether something is magical in nature is partly subjective. (though gemstones and precious metals tend to be considered magical in nature by a lot of lore from various books and games.)

I suppose a fairly decent way to test would be having an armor set thats purely craftmanship, another thats purely magic craftmanship, and using a weathered tool to try and minimise the amount of boosting coming from the tool. Then you could try a difficult synth without any armor on, then swapping in all craftmanship, and all magic craftmanship, and seeing how you do. With that big a difference in skill, it's probably going to be as obvious as night and day, from failing miserably to succeeding fairly well.

Once you figure out what individual synths are craft/magic craft, you could try and put the pieces together and figure out which hypothesis is correct, if any, by comparing which shards were used, whether the item would be considered "magical" in nature or not, and so on.

Ingame help says:

Craftsmanship:
Your ability to synthesize items with physical characteristics.

Magic Craftsmanship:
Your ability to synthesize items with magical characteristics.

But we're still back at stage 1

What is it that gives it that characteristic? It could still be the shards themselves!


If it does come down to the item itself they really should have something defining what type it is - if it's magical or physical

Especially since the game has the courtesy to 'explain' to us the difference between Craftsmanship and Magic Craftsmanship!

It doesn't say anything about crystals, just about the items being produced.

But what defines the items being produced?
Which of their characteristics makes them magical or physical?

It could still come down to the shards used in the recipe

Turquoise Ring -- Physical or Magical?
It enhances Mind, maybe it's magical?
Mind is used by Monks, maybe it's physical?
It's a ring.. maybe it's physical?

Sometimes it not seem so clear

Since when is Mnd used by Monks.

It's pretty obvious Str Vit Dex are physical and Mnd Int Pie are magical.

We all know Asianie means INT
No need to sweat the small stuff


So I take it Armourer doesn't need any Magic Craftsmanship whatsoever then according to this?

Small bump on this topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asiaine

From your quote:
- Fire, Earth, Wind then the recipe is Craftsmanship
- Lightning, Ice, Water then the recipe is Magic Craftsmanship

But then, Ivory Staff uses:
Fire Crystal, and Wind Shard

This would suggest that the 2 Handed THM Weapon is not magical...
Likewise, THM 1-Handed Wind Brand and Ice Brand use Fire And Wind crystals.

---

Good point. I'm still just speculating on this, but trying to work it into the crystal theory, I take it to mean that those items are crafted through physical properties... but this is not necessarily a reflection of their end use by a Thaumaturge/Black Mage?

Thaumaturge items tend to be more life/death/scientific/mechanical and act as vessels to channel the wielder's inner spiritual energies. The items themselves are more physical in nature and require Wind and Fire. Maybe? ^^;


On another note, I am trying to craft a set of Vanya gear which equally require Wind (Craftsmanship(?)) and Lightning (Magical Craftsmanship(?)).

I have Magic Craftsmanship at about 130 and Craftsmanship at about 110, and the Wind element goes unstable much more often than Lightning.

Later I should experiment with some NQ materials and see if raising Craftsmanship instead will result in the Lightning element going unstable more. It would be an interesting test.

Perhaps a simpler/easier approach would be:
If the end result is an item that is equipable only by a DoM or contains any stat that is 'magical' then it uses Magic Craftsmanship. Otherwise it is normal craftsmanship?

Not saying this is right, but maybe it is? ^^;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asiaine

Perhaps a simpler/easier approach would be:
If the end result is an item that is equipable only by a DoM or contains any stat that is 'magical' then it uses Magic Craftsmanship. Otherwise it is normal craftsmanship?

Not saying this is right, but maybe it is? ^^;

---

That would make sense. I wonder if it's really that simple?

It has been over a year since I wrote what was quoted in the OP, and the whole Craftsmanship versus Magical Craftsmanship thing is still a mystery.

It would be really nice if Square Enix clarified the differences, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that day to come. ^^;

Well, they made my woes a bit more worrying. By including NEW equipment that supported off-hand stats (magical vs non), it suggests they wish to persist with this model.

Which means rather than hoping it goes away and have just ONE craftsmanship stat, we still have to figure out what is magical and not.

What do we do if we start crafting magitek items o.o?!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Some sort of signifier on the item or recipe would really help with this issue.

With one DoH lvl 50 and another very close, I still don't know which of the two craftsmanship types to gear up for on any given synth... :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Ingame help says:

Craftsmanship:
Your ability to synthesize items with physical characteristics.

Magic Craftsmanship:
Your ability to synthesize items with magical characteristics.

---

So gear with STR DEX and VIT modifiers are physical
gear with PIE INT MND modifiers are magical
and everything else is physical?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Some sort of signifier on the item or recipe would really help with this issue.

With one DoH lvl 50 and another very close, I still don't know which of the two craftsmanship types to gear up for on any given synth... :confused:

---

I'm in the same boat

^ ditto. if they could just label the synths that would be grand. XIV is a lot more transparent than XI, but they still have a long ways to go

EDIT: On my alchemist, I just automatically assume everything is magical. because... alchemy is magical. no? haha, I really think some clarification is needed. Rukkirii!!! (Specifically, Rukkirii!!) Bayohne!! here my cry!!! we need Dev Zord Power NOW!

just thinking out loud here: its seems like the term "craftsmanship" would imply the process used, not necessarily the final product. so something made with "magic craftsmanship" doesn't necessarily mean its a magical item in the end. or at least, at this time, we dont really know whether it does or not. my guess is that they're talking about the process, not the item's properties.

yeah, that was my thinking too. i've generally been going by that. then it sort of gets into a grey area with cooking. because really you're just using a pan. and I guess that could be considered physical. but then you think hmmm these scrambled eggs are delicious... but are they magically delicious? etc.

My anecdotal experience crafting Cobalt gear for ARM corroborates the shard theory. I have been gearing up exclusively for Craft. since ARM clearly would not be Magic Craft. and I seem to get far more Ice destablizations than Earth. If that is indeed the case, it brings up some interesting possibilities for maximizing quality via gear weighted heavily in one direction and a judicious use of Improvise, Careful+ abilities, and Brands of X.

ya so far the shard theory has held up for me as well

Ever with my cook used M.Craft on my gear and always good craft ^^

probably craft that use: STR/VIT/DEX are only Craft+
INT/MIND/PIE are only M.Craft+

(cook that use MND/PIE is M.craft)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doho

EDIT: On my alchemist, I just automatically assume everything is magical. because... alchemy is magical. no? haha, I really think some clarification is needed. Rukkirii!!! (Specifically, Rukkirii!!) Bayohne!! here my cry!!! we need Dev Zord Power NOW!

---

Well, not necessarily.
Alchemy is just chemistry. Nothing magical about science classes when I was a boy!

I'm pretty convinced it's the shard theory in all honesty.
I can't bring myself to believe that one carft can be all physical and one craft all magical. That's bad game balance.

There's only one feature that each recipe in game has in common with the next and that's the elemental shards.

I think it would be very Enix to force players to change their crafting gear for each item they synth based on something as simple and fluctuative as shards. Of course that is opinion...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Some sort of signifier on the item or recipe would really help with this issue.

With one DoH lvl 50 and another very close, I still don't know which of the two craftsmanship types to gear up for on any given synth... :confused:

---

Don't mind me, I'll just bump this thread and put a +1 beneath this quote.

Brain = Fried.

What is the purpose of off hand items? I thought they would be for special recipes but not so?

Where can I find a comprehensive guide to crafting and what skills are worth using and when is best, and what the crap does elemental instability do? etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonForest

Brain = Fried.

What is the purpose of off hand items? I thought they would be for special recipes but not so?

Where can I find a comprehensive guide to crafting and what skills are worth using and when is best, and what the crap does elemental instability do? etc.

---

Originally the offhand concept was part of the first vision of XIV under Tanaka. I recall some talk in a post quite some time ago that offhand would be done away with at some point. Whether or not this is a) accurate or b) still stands is questionable. Given the nature of the 2.0 vision being more simplistic this discussion may not be relevant soon.

What I can tell you is that based on crafting dozens of the recently added "hard" items (and their basemats) is...

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

This is over the course of hundreds of synths while using food as the variable. This indicates primarily that:

1. The cap is already hit prior to synthing and the addition of food is irrelevant
2. The statistical bump provided by food (+15) may be so minimal that it doesn't matter
3. That, in an attempt to simplify an overly-complex system, SE decided to add the numbers up and use the total combined value

The ONLY noticeable stats are:

1. Control - it reduces the chances of destabilization. This has been confirmed in patch notes.
2. The stat that affects quality for each job. Again, this is clearly laid out in previous notes and yes, it does make a difference. While the numerical value is fairly low for each successful standard and careful success it does add up over the course of the process.

People are over-thinking it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonForest

Brain = Fried.

What is the purpose of off hand items? I thought they would be for special recipes but not so?

Where can I find a comprehensive guide to crafting and what skills are worth using and when is best, and what the crap does elemental instability do? etc.

---

It used to be that certain recipes had better success rates when using off hand tools. For example, making thread was better done using a spinning wheel versus a needle. You could still do it with the needle, but you had a higher rate of failure.

Now it just seems to affect what you get when you HQ the synthesis.
If you used the off hand tool you get more of the item you were making.
If you used the main hand tool you get a single +1 item.

Elemental instability reduces your rate of progress for each action. It also -seems- to lower your chance of success of each action a little... but it's so random that this is difficult to prove.

For abilities, I think the ones you use depend on what you're going for. Aiming for HQ versus grinding would use different sets of abilities.

Sorry. I don't know of any guides... maybe someone else does?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikita

Now it just seems to affect what you get when you HQ the synthesis.
If you used the off hand tool you get more of the item you were making.
If you used the main hand tool you get a single +1 item.

---

I'm sorry, what?
1 specific items only have one specific HQ output, either it's +1 or +quantity
It doesn't change if you change your tool

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rina_inverse

I'm sorry, what?
1 specific items only have one specific HQ output, either it's +1 or +quantity
It doesn't change if you change your tool

---

That's what I meant, but perhaps I worded it poorly.