I'm not talking about theoreticals, or even FFXIV specifically here.
I'm simply asking about whether or not a value changed, potentially many times per second, with every hit / tick [Chain bonus] could possibly work in an MMO.
This is a technical question. If you nothing of the limitations of servers, please don't bother answering. If you have even a good guess, with some evidence as to why it would or wouldn't work, I'd appreciate it.
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05-26-2012, 04:31 PMShurrikhanWould FFXIII Battle Mechancs - Chain Bonus especially - Work in an MMO?
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05-26-2012, 04:50 PMWinnipegJet
Technically it could, provided that lag doesn't ruin it. Other than that servers don't factor in much really, it's a system just like a HP bar and just need to be properly programmed. Could be fun to try.
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05-26-2012, 05:04 PMShurrikhan
If it does work, it would potentially mean that damage dealing alone isn't the end of it. The amount of damage done over a specific increment of time would also be usable as a factor of strategy, the derivative being as important as the actual value. That's not to say that most MMOs would be interested in anything so precise, but the option would then exist.
First thinking about it, I didn't see any reason why if clients could keep tabs on health dropping instantly for a given enemy, they couldn't also keep tabs on a chain gauge rising, but I wanted to be certain. -
05-26-2012, 11:35 PMDelsus
As far as servers go it is possible, MMOs are designed around fighting together so latency needs to be as low as possible anyway.
The problem comes (talking specifically of FFXIII) with dealing 10 million damage in 20 seconds, as long as your dds could build a chain (will be no problem with a decent tank) fights would be so easy, the reasons it works in FFXIII is because it can be tough to build a chain on stronger bosses because if your CON or ravagers are taking too much damage you need to swap to possible SENT and MED to heal, and while you are healing the chain bonus is dropping. In an MMO this has no effect, healer tank and all dds, you would stagger most mobs very fast without the need to change for heals or w/e so just stack the classes that chain fastest (possibly one that attacks fast to keep the chaing guage high) and all mobs will drop like flies unless they have over 1 billion HP.
You may say "well limit party sized to 3 to avoid this" but then why not just play any offline RPG. -
05-27-2012, 05:49 AMShurrikhanWhy would the system carry over the amount of damage dealt? That's not even part of the system -- it's part of the scaling. The rate at which the chain gauge is boosted, along with damage dealt in general, can be toned down or up or any which way in implementation. The numbers in an of themselves have no meaning, only the percentages (average dps for your level vs. a certain mob level), which you could expect to remain the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delsus
Edit:
But, does anyone know by how much it would increase? It should basically be the same as damage dealt, and no MMO seems to have trouble tracking an enemy's falling health instantly. The only difference is if the chain gauge also effects the percentage of the next attack's chain boosting effects, in which case there may be one additional layer of tracking, for a total of three between health and chain gauge. This seems common sense to me, but I've know complete idea of how this actually works on a server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delsus
<--Never programmed with server load in mind. -
05-27-2012, 06:14 AMDelsusIf dps remains the same there is no point of the chain guage, you said about FFXIII, and the point of the chain bonus is to stagger the mob as fast as possible, to then do as much damage as possible while it is staggered, if dps remained the same there would be no point, one thing I hated about FFXIII was doing millions of damage in 10 seconds, all the chain guage is about is zerging a mob down and it makes all bosses easy mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Also if it was implemented in a MMO, for HP, MP stamina etc the amount of data transmitted between clients and server is very low, so even high latency you will not notice much lag with these dropping, and it would be the same with the chain guage, also it would be a flat percentage increase which would be handled by the client, for example if it was programmed it would be one line of code that says if the mob is staggered increase damage by xxx% else use normal damage algorithms. -
05-27-2012, 07:32 AMLienn
The stagger system itself is a very valid mechanic for a MMO, not only the chain bonus.
It was exactly one of the examples regarding content adaptability at my lodestone blog. I do find the stagger system a very nice battle mechanics that would certainly work way better in a multiplayer/ MMO world than it did with the paradigm shift mechanics. -
05-27-2012, 08:14 AMShurrikhanDo you have a link to said blog? I'd love to see it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
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05-27-2012, 08:17 AMShurrikhanThis is what I was looking to confirm. Thanks a bunch, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delsus
Btw, just because the system would be viable in an MMO doesn't mean I'd want to adapt it to FFXIV as is. I'd much rather see something that is able to drop off more tactically, rather than being either sustained or lost completely, and only ever moving upward until drop-off. I think there's a lot that can be done with the use of derivative importance, more than just the original ramp-up style to chain bonuses (stack em fast, kill em fast). -
05-27-2012, 10:21 AMMerylstryfe
You do see this in a very minor way in FFXIV. Performing certain attacks will incapacitate foes (knocking heads off of skeletons, for example). This idea could be melded pretty easily with chain gauging, build the mobs tp up to a certain level, and before they use it, perform a critical hit that sends it into a staggered (or in XIV, incapacitated) state.
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05-27-2012, 10:42 AMviion
Anything is possible.
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05-27-2012, 11:17 AMLiennHere: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=336465Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It actually was an example based on how we could adjust FFXIII stagger system, role bonuses and all to the original FFXIV. I enjoy talking about game mechanics so the entire blog is about them lol...but this link is specific about FFXIII mechanics.
The content adaptability entry i mention there is this one: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=314043 ...but this one isn't specific of FFXIII, actually talking about several FF games (FFXIII part is at very end).
But if you prefer a tl;dr, i'd use a new discipline that can synchronize for chain bonus, with it being possible as a monster attribute (like in FFXIII, where each monster has it's chain bonus) or separating it into a character gauge so everyone synchronized would have their own.
While as monster attribute the chain bonus would generate a mechanics very similar to FFXIII, with everyone having the same chain bonus value, by having them separated every player would have their own value, adding a strategic aspect to the usage (by everyone having their own i mean like having a TP gauge that is increased every time each party member "do his role", so the ravager would generate chain bonus to the commander gauge, to his own gauge, to sentinel gauge, etc. I find this way better because it would prevent that when the monster gets staggered it being staggered to all party members. With each player having its own chain gauge it would prevent the entire pt from getting access to staggered chain bonus at same time). -
05-27-2012, 02:54 PMShurrikhanI wouldn't like to see the roles separated quite so much, but the idea that certain iconic sets or roles would have their own build ups does sound enticing. I'm curious about what the best variations to this would be though; at present, that would seem to lock out the worth of certain features due to party role composition, increasingly as the fight progresses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
First variation to come to mind:
- the bonus of the chain gauge would be split across the players using it (with bonuses for more users, similar to a *spread-damage* AoE still having more damage with more enemies). This would mean that bonuses are built faster with more people, but the position can still be effectively filled by a small player count. In this sense you could have a wall of Conjurers start as attackers, then swap to a defensive role such that their Stone spell turns into something more like summoning a stone wall, quickly starting to fill up a defensive role in addition to the main tank. No dedicated healer yet.
The boss is heavily provoked by [white] heals (other than damage-based self-healing), hence the use of a Paladin to hold threat. Enrages at different damage plateaus, at which point he will continue pummeling an enemy until it dies or the next plateau is reached (non-enrage), gaining power as he does, but takes additional damage in the meantime. Power loss is immediate for death, but slower for the plateau drop-off.
As such, we will try to get the damage-dealing role up as high as possible before the enrage. Once it starts, all Conjurers will heal periodically to keep the Paladin up while taking advantage of the heightened chain bonus and enrage damage taken bonus. We will time the Paladin's death with finishing the enrage, so that the healers aren't attacked (threat void), and the power will be lost, but we will have enough time to take advantage of damage-dealing.
Once dead, a off-role dodge-tank and a high-health tank should take the stand, in this case I'll use something like a Monk and Marauder. The Monk takes advantage of the past defensive buildup to increase dodge chance, dodging the heavy blows. The Marauder, moving in front of the Monk when necessary, takes the unavoidable attacks.
- If no heals are done afterwords, the Paladin can basically take the healing chaining with him to the grave, then using it for some manner of mid-battle self-resurrection, in a Paladin-like manner of course.
- Majority of the team can go defensive, with a few remaining in the appropriate physical/nonphysical, dodge/parry/absorb categories to redirect defended blows back at the boss
- In the case of negative affecting abilities, such as the party being set on fire, a single or few medics pair Esuna with the use of Water in order to quench the flames
- Etc, etc
It's a poor example, but I hope I've gotten my point across. In its relevance to the adaptation, without some additional bonuses in conditions of urgency (most urgency being fewer players in the given role and the bonus being the way the role bonuses split), most of this wouldn't be accomplishable. You'd simply set your roles according to the emergencies of the fight and never leave those numbers, because you couldn't get enough out of the bonuses. Think of it like a difference in formation. Sometimes you want a wall with two entrapping sides. Sometimes, you want a wedge formation. And in the latter, the one guy at the tip is often at least as valuable as the totals of the lines behind him.
Well, that went way longer than I intended... And to think that was just testing the waters on one little change... I feel bad now. -
05-27-2012, 11:43 PMLienn
Looks interesting indeed. But, IMO, wouldn't allowing each role to build its own chain turn actions into an overly complex mechanics? This, of course, assuming that just like you have healing and defense chains you would have one for each role and a way to "paradigm shift" the roles, also affecting the actions. This would cause, as example, an effect change as you change role like:
Stone (caster) > Stoneskin (shield) > Rasp (jammer) > enstone (buffer) > stona (healer) > WS (attacker)...and this all being effect of the same action (Stone), but affected by roles.
This way the role not only generates chain bonus for that role but also expand the actions, right? Actually...this is a hell of an idea lol! If i happened to misunderstand your example, i apologize...that was the way i understood. I think i'll even post an entry about this too...but i'll call it Elemental Trigger, a placeholder action related to an element that change based on role and, instead os attibutes, would have element modifier...like higher your fire affinity higher the potency of fire trigger.
Well, sorry that this derailed completely... ^^: -
05-28-2012, 04:23 AMShurrikhanNo, that's pretty much what I meant. You got it. However, just because the spells would be simplified binding-wise down to certain trigger-points doesn't mean that they can only be adjusted or leveled based on the trigger-point. There's no reason why Stoneskin or Flame Shrowd couldn't be advanced specifically, rather than through Stone or Fire "triggers". By name alone, "triggers" would seem to be something more... exciting, than just the base for multiple uses of a spell type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
However, this is all still just for fun and experimentation purposes. I wouldn't honestly want to see this in FFXIV, at least in such a obviously copied form from FFXIII. And that's not so much due to disliking copies as disliking something that doesn't fit as well as it could. Quickly changeable roles, possibly also with the before-mentioned changing abilities, I do like, and I do think can fit FFXIV fairly well, but only if paired with some other changes.
But, back to having fun. The variable abilities could apply to physical attacks as well. Take Piercing Arrow for example, presently vague, general, and only separated from Heavy Shot by cooldown time. Between, just to use the FFXIII's for lack of a better idea at present, Com/Rav/Sen/Sab/Syn/Med would be something like Blasting Shot (General, high damage, may use penetrated armor values for AoE shrapenl (piercing) damage), Piercing Arrow (+ short stacking bleed DoT), Thundering Bolt (Distracts and partially interrupts), Impaling Sting, Soaring Shot (Flanks around an ally, dealing damage proportional to the ally's next attack. Soaring Shot can be dodged in place of the attack, but if it hits, the attack is a guaranteed hit too.) Probably nothing for Med except an Aesthetic Dart equivalent, usable on enemies or allies.
Edit: And as for derailment, I'm more to blame. I'd hoped I might get a bit more information on the way servers work in regard to these kinds of systems, but it looks like common sense is actually pretty accurate here, which I may even be a little happy about. -
05-28-2012, 04:42 AMShurrikhan
Honestly, the way I first imagined FFXIV's greatest potential was in the making of hybrid classes that really embody the character you're playing, however you mean to play. The armory system gave the impression of having a large variety of techniques and combat styles to choose from, each to be learned from separately at first, and then in conjunction. I figured our true "classes" (what would probably be closer to "jobs" but without fitting exact premade types) would come with our making, at our own pace. Furthermore, we had an additional variety of more iconic past heroes to learn from, whose types are basically our jobs now - the Black Mage, Dragoon, *Arcanist, etc - but I didn't think that would mean we'd need to tie ourselves (relatively permanently) into an Iconic set, fix an exact job for ourselves.
Many will say that having exact classes is the height of intricacy because of what you have to do to make what you want out of those initial sets, like using a set of colors to paint any picture. Personally, I don't see why that level of intricacy can't occur before combat too, using the classes/jobs as paints for one's own character's composition, to grant a truly unique style. The better you know yourself, the better you know what you can do in a team, with or without preknowledge of the other members' capabilities and roles, and can adjust yourself accordingly.
When I first thought about FFXIII aspects in FFXIV, it was like pursuing iconic sets (like "jobs") more on the fly, at least as it pertains to combat, which just felt right somehow after doing the Path of the Twelve and similar quest-chains. In a way, these functioned a bit like the FFXIII Roles (FFXIII Paradigms being Roles set for the entire party), but not quite. The total number and functions of the slots were not preset to 6 roles, but rather a party's Paradigms allowed them to set those roles implicitly, almost like crafting a fable. They looked more like a guildleve card composed of the group, each member shown in a certain impression. This is all pretty abstract at present, but let me see if I can come up with an example when I get back...