REVERT SAM TO 6.08

That is all, if you want to know why just look at dps section of forums. Just wanted to get a post out on General Discussion so that maybe any Dev scouting the forums will know to check DPS.

You typo'd 5.58.

Oka namakiri was a mistake.

Dont worry, im sure the Devs already saw the infinite threads about "SAM is unplayable", but they think its okay.

sam is perfect the way it currently is

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

sam is functional the way it currently is

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Fixed your post. Perfect would mean it is 100% satisfying while being 100% viable. Is it viable? Yes no doubt, it still cranks. Does it feel satisfying? I personally don't think and it seems a large majority of players agree with that sentiment because Shinten spam + Gyoten optimization (atleast in ultimate and savage) isn't as engaging as the kenki management you needed with Kaiten. Though SHB had more to it due to Senei/Guren being 50 gauge, optimal 3rd Eye use to use Seigen since Seigen was more damage per kenki than shinten, and ikishoten being a 1 min 50 kenkei gen)

Nah, can't let the inexperienced players being noticed for playing the job ineffectively.

/s

Isnt it samurai the on of the main dps in world first DRS ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

That is all, if you want to know why just look at dps section of forums. Just wanted to get a post out on General Discussion so that maybe any Dev scouting the forums will know to check DPS.

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If I wanted to check out DPS forums Id be there not here. So no Im not going to check you can either tell us whats up or dont post here at all.

Before the changes, there were a lot of posts about it in the General forum. After the changes, I've hardly seen any in the General forum except references in replies and this is the first post about it I've seen in a long while. If everyone is still upset about it, I suggest making the amount of posts we saw before it changed.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You typo'd 5.58.

Oka namakiri was a mistake.

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I mean its atleast cool in pvp

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Originally Posted by Ravor

Isnt it samurai the on of the main dps in world first DRS ultimate?

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Again it's not the damage it does. It's the feel of it. There were many people who avoided DRK before the 6.1 changes despite the fact it was the highest DPS tank.

It's funny to me how many SAMs were content with the mess they made with SAM in EW until Kaiten was taken away. Yet, the skill in all actuality made zero sense to have.

While I don't favor its removal, especially if the reason was button bloat; I don't favor it's return either. Especially without addressing the other, far more glaring issues SAM has had even before EW.

they nerf management/reward of the job to buff the entry to be alright on it. It feels like drk all over again. I feel like they are decided with it and stick with it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You typo'd 5.58.

Oka namakiri was a mistake.

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Honestly... yeah. I would indeed rather revert the Ikishoten change and the second Tsubame-Gaeshi charge (just replacing it with TG not being cancelled by following actions, merely replaced with each new Iaijutsu). Bring back the 50-Sen Senei/Guren. Add Guren-esque linear AoE fall-off damage onto Shoha itself via trait. And at least have Fuga mastery buff Fuga to the same capacity as Fuko so we can choose between the circular and conal AoE per our personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It's funny to me how many SAMs were content with the mess they made with SAM in EW until Kaiten was taken away. Yet, the skill in all actuality made zero sense to have.

While I don't favor its removal, especially if the reason was button bloat; I don't favor it's return either. Especially without addressing the other, far more glaring issues SAM has had even before EW.

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I just hit 82 on samurai and immediately asked myself why shoha 2 is a thing while I tried to find somewhere on my hotbars to put it. Then I realized that the Devs were out of ideas and thus it was born.

I didn't even realize that they changed the cost of Guren and Senei. I haven't played too much Sam in EW until recently and I knew the Kaiten removal made Kenki worthless, but with the changes to the two big kenki skills to 25 kenki there actually is no management of it at all.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly... yeah. I would indeed rather revert the Ikishoten change and the second Tsubame-Gaeshi charge (just replacing it with TG not being cancelled by following actions, merely replaced with each new Iaijutsu). Bring back the 50-Sen Senei/Guren. Just Guren-esque linear AoE fall-off damage onto Shoha itself via trait. And at least have Fuga mastery buff Fuga to the same capacity as Fuko so we can choose between the circular and conal AoE per our personal preference.

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Yeah, honestly the 6.0 changes were terrible but people only got upset over kaiten for some reason.

The Angry SAM threads are overflowing out of the DPS Forums!

https://thecount.com/wp-content/uplo...DIRECTIONS.gif

It does feel weird for how many qol updates they brought in endwalker to Sam they also ripped out many of the things I enjoyed about it.

People prefer different levels of complexity in their rotation. It's literally impossible for them to please everyone equally at the same time in regards to this. There is not an objectively better route. While some people have expressed their grievances with this iteration of the Samurai kit, you have to keep in mind, those who like the changes are not going to make threads about it. You can't just base how well a change is being received due to complaints on forums with this being so.

FIX HEALS
FIX AST
FIX SAM

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Originally Posted by Jybril

FIX HEALS
FIX AST
FIX SAM

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Nothing is wrong with ast outside of lord of crowns/w/e the other one is having 2 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

People prefer different levels of complexity in their rotation. It's literally impossible for them to please everyone equally at the same time in regards to this. There is not an objectively better route. While some people have expressed their grievances with this iteration of the Samurai kit, you have to keep in mind, those who like the changes are not going to make threads about it. You can't just base how well a change is being received due to complaints on forums with this being so.

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You are literally explaining the exact problem. They cut off the top part of the Samurai's skill expression and the much loved identity skills. The only thing this change did was make it so everyone plays at the skill floor and make the job play like level 50. The only accomplishment this change did was remove the job from most groups. You are ignoring that there is worldwide unanimous feedback stating these changes are horrendous. There are over 2500 posts combined wordwide explaining this, you can count almost half from JP alone. I'm not going to even start going into heavy details, if you are going to join the conversation I'd like to direct you to CelestiCer's compiled threads and you'll see the many well thought out arguments against every single reasoning SE has given. Oh and, many casual players are also against this change, it's not just people who play at a higher skill level. The job's feel and fun factor have been stripped for a large majority. This isn't exclusive to the Official Forums and there are also videos and discussions elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Before the changes, there were a lot of posts about it in the General forum. After the changes, I've hardly seen any in the General forum except references in replies and this is the first post about it I've seen in a long while. If everyone is still upset about it, I suggest making the amount of posts we saw before it changed.

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All those posts are in the DPS forums. You don't need to search very far for them.

And I'm going to add that yes, Samurai has other problems but removing Kaiten was not a solution and neither was singling out their damage profile while leaving every other job untouched. They created this problem themselves when they added Meikyo and Tsubame's second charges and forcing everything into 2 minute windows. Then the developers are concerned about damage variance. Ogi Namikiri, Kenki homogenization in 6.0, all of this has been discussed to death while we've been waiting for that promised reply from YoshiP to explain their reasoning on the changes.

This just comes off as bias hyperbole to her. 2500 posts worldwide of people who didn't like the changes isn't much. FFXIV is huge, with a 2022 estimate being as high as 35.8m players with a 3.4m online daily average. Considering those who like the changes aren't going to be talking about it on the forums, 2500 posts, or even 25,000 posts, isn't an indicator of the change being negatively received by the majority.

How would this change lead to the job being removed from most groups when their damage is still as fine as ever? A group isn't going to kick Samurais because their kit was made easier to play optimally. If anything, it would be the opposite since it's less likely a player will make a mistake trying to optimize their rotation. So, that assertion makes no sense. Just because she isn't buying into a bias narrative to push the agenda you are hoping for, doesn't mean she can't give insight on the conversation.

The reality is that the devs can't base how well the changes are received just by going off a couple thousand complaint posts on the forums worldwide. Now, it doesn't mean it isn't being negatively received either, but trying to overstate things makes her more skeptical of the claim when it seems very clear to be coming from a position of bias.

What would be more objective is the relative average number of samurai players before and after the changes for an extended period of time. Also, if they sent out an in-game survey to active samurai players, where they could rate how they feel about the changes, that would also be a better way to filter through bias narratives being pushed online by those who don't happen to like the changes.

It's important to recognize that just because you don't have threads of people praising the changes, saying how they are glad the rotation was simplified, doesn't mean there aren't large numbers of people who feel that way who are simply playing the game and enjoying them. Historically, players do not make threads about liking such things. It's usually only when a player has a problem with something that they go out of their way to talk about it. This is why it's important to take complaint topics on the forums with a few grains of salt, as it isn't representative of the player base as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

Abbreviated.

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Ah yes, yet another person with the hyperbole argument. The fact that there are this many people posting, and many for the first time, is a clear indicator that there is something not quite right with the changes. If you argue against this you are just arguing in bad faith. The opinions are also not varied, it's all the same. We were asked specifically to write the feedback, and are doing so. There is a direct comparison to activity before the changes and after the changes regarding Samurai feedback and there is an absurdly large increase after 6.1. The actual post detailing and posting it in a format with before and after are in my feedback thread, one of the more recent pages.

Damage isn't everything. If you've even read even one of the threads detailing arguments against the changes, you'd know this. Groups will kick Samurais because most people don't want to play with a handicap unless it literally doesn't matter, and if it didn't matter these changes were useless in the first place. Does that mean every group will do that? No, but there is an incentive. I am not going to parrot what has already been written, if you actually care, go read the feedback. I see you keep repeating the same words thinking it will somehow push your own argument, but you're literally speaking on a subject without being informed.

Yes, if you look at a certain third party website, you will see the play rate has drastically decreased from one of the most played to one of the least. You'd also know this if you read any of the feedback.

I won't respond to anything else you have to say because it isn't worth my time. If you decide to read any of the well constructed posts, please by all means I am open to having the discussion at that point.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Ah yes, yet another person with the hyperbole argument. The fact that there are this many people posting, and many for the first time, is a clear indicator that there is something not quite right with the changes. If you argue against this you are just arguing in bad faith. The opinions are also not varied, it's all the same. We were asked specifically to write the feedback, and are doing so. There is a direct comparison to activity before the changes and after the changes regarding Samurai feedback and there is an absurdly large increase after 6.1. The actual post detailing and posting it in a format with before and after are in my feedback thread, one of the more recent pages.

Damage isn't everything. If you've even read even one of the threads detailing arguments against the changes, you'd know this. Groups will kick Samurais because most people don't want to play with a handicap unless it literally doesn't matter, and if it didn't matter these changes were useless in the first place. Does that mean every group will do that? No, but there is an incentive. I am not going to parrot what has already been written, if you actually care, go read the feedback. I see you keep repeating the same words thinking it will somehow push your own argument, but you're literally speaking on a subject without being informed.

Yes, if you look at a certain third party website, you will see the play rate has drastically decreased from one of the most played to one of the least. You'd also know this if you read any of the feedback.

I won't respond to anything else you have to say because it isn't worth my time. If you decide to read any of the well constructed posts, please by all means I am open to having the discussion at that point.

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It's hardly an argument. It's very clearly hyperbole. You are trying to stipulate what millions of people think based off what seems to be a micro minority of organized complainers with an agenda to try to push for a change that is in line with their own biases. You are the one in bad faith if you are suggesting it's in bad faith to be skeptical of extremely over the top claims by such a small group of players advocating for their own interests at the expense of those who may actually prefer the changes. You further make yourself look to be arguing in bad faith by suggesting people would kick a samurai from their group because their class was made easier to play, lol. No one but your own ingroup is going to buy into that even a little. It's beyond absurd to anyone not in that bubble and only further hurts your credibility for your already over the top claims that you lack actual evidence for, which the burden of evidence is on you since you are the ones making these extreme claims that just so happen serve your own interests. To say it's sketchy would be an understatement. Arguments that appeal to your own biases may seem good to you, but they are poor to those who don't share them with you and your in-group.

The number of players isn't what matters, nor is what was said. The relative number of players is what matters. E.g. If 80,000 of a million active players were playing samurai on avg. over a month long period prior to the changes, that would be a relative percent of 8. If that would change to say 70,000 players out of 800,000 avg. players for the avg. for a month post the changes, that would be a relative percent of 8.75. Even though the total number of samurai players would go down in this example, the relative percent would be going up. This is more important to consider since if less or more people play in general at a later window of date, that should be accounted for. Granted, there should be a margin of error to account for other factors that may lead to an increase or decrease as well. If the relative % ends up within 20% or so of one another, it would be fair to say that people balanced out between those who liked or disliked the changes. If there was a difference of say, 40% or greater, then depending on the direction, it would show that people were pushed away from the changes or attracted to them respectively. Granted, this wouldn't be conclusive, but it would be better evidence to indicate overall player feelings than a very small number of posters on the forums which for this game is especially known for being rather disjointed from what general players who don't visit the forums feel.

It is also worth stating that influencers with their own bias preferences often have them parroted by their followers, which could easily lead to poor representation of what players overall think. E.g. A creator like misshapen chair's views hardly represent the whole of FFXIV. Far from it. Yet, if their followers were to advocate for their views on the forums, it would further obscure the objective truth of how players feel overall, which is almost always going to be rather varied for subjects like class design. The reality is, many people do prefer simplifications to rotation, even on high levels of gameplay. Just because people aren't making threads celebrating such changes, doesn't mean they don't exist, as historically, as stated before, people don't tend to make threads celebrating changes of that nature on the forums. People typically only come to the forums to complain about what they don't like. In turn, it's completely bias to just presume one's distaste for the changes is true for the majority, especially when the ones making that claim have that bias themselves.

It's essentially a relatively small number of people with similar biases patting each other on the back in a forum thread and trying to play it off as it representing the worldwide community as a whole. It's a completely disingenuous over the top claim which is self serving to that in-group and thus is hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Nothing is wrong with ast outside of lord of crowns/w/e the other one is having 2 buttons.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...eB45lzIPQC.png

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

People prefer different levels of complexity in their rotation. It's literally impossible for them to please everyone equally at the same time in regards to this. There is not an objectively better route. While some people have expressed their grievances with this iteration of the Samurai kit, you have to keep in mind, those who like the changes are not going to make threads about it. You can't just base how well a change is being received due to complaints on forums with this being so.

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????????? name one person that asked for these sam changes that wasnt a dungeon spamming MSQ andy.

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

It's hardly an argument. It's very clearly hyperbole. You are trying to stipulate what millions of people think based off what seems to be a micro minority of organized complainers with an agenda to try to push for a change that is in line with their own biases. You are the one in bad faith if you are suggesting it's in bad faith to be skeptical of extremely over the top claims by such a small group of players advocating for their own interests at the expense of those who may actually prefer the changes. You further make yourself look to be arguing in bad faith by suggesting people would kick a samurai from their group because their class was made easier to play, lol. No one but your own ingroup is going to buy into that even a little..

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This is a lot of nonsense speak for coping with a bad change. Lots of words to say literally nothing. The core fanbase of samurai is mad, that's all you and SE gotta know. Simple as that.

I leveled Sam after the change and felt like I had to push Shinten after every attack to not overcap.
It was not engaging or fun and just felt spammy ^^"
It got old really fast for me, so I get why main Samurai's are upset about it..
I don't care for Sam at all, but even I felt like it was missing some depth.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...eB45lzIPQC.png

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If the devs removed this the uproar would be louder than even the SAM changes IMO. The hordes of people posting about how healers are getting even more dumbed down... /wince

This thread really should be moved to the DPS subforum.

When WHM players were complaining about the Lily system going into Stormblood, all redundant threads were moved and consolidated down. But I suppose there was less toxic behavior back then as well because the ToS around player conduct was enforced. It's unfortunate that this sort of brigading behavior isn't also addressed under the ToS, and perhaps it should be raised as an issue in the next Live Letter Q+A.

Haha thats funny! Tell another one! There was less toxic behaviour years ago, sure..

It's true. You actually weren't even allowed to use profanity in here, because of the player conduct section of the ToS (although that's still technically true in game). There was a running joke on Reddit for a while that everyone had prior infractions on the Official Forums that precluded them from posting in here.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's true. You actually weren't even allowed to use profanity in here, because of the player conduct section of the ToS (although that's still technically true in game). There was a running joke on Reddit for a while that everyone had prior infractions on the Official Forums that precluded them from posting in here.

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And yet here you are, trying to gatekeep people from using forums saying they are not "high quality"; distinctly remember you coming into a SAM thread in the DPS subforums to whine about that specifically. Interesting how that behavior is "allowed" :)

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

Insert garbage take

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Can you point me to a youtube video, reddit post, discord message, or a piece of content where somebody in detail explains why the SAM 6.01 changes are good? Emphasis on detailed, not "SAM is fine, the end". Because I have yet to see this. In fact I see the opposite. Don't say "well people don't talk about good changes" because everyone was singing up a storm DRK Bloodweapon and Living Dead changes in a positive tone to the same prevalence of people complaining about SAM 6.01 changes.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

?????

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No, I'm saying the exact same thing that I always have on this issue. Let me make it clear for you.

The DPS subforum is a mess right now because nobody is able to post in there except for the SAM brigade. Anything that's not a SAM thread gets rapidly scrolled off the first page by all the duplicate Kaiten/'I'm angry'/'I'm still posting two weeks after my screenshotted unsubscribe date' threads. Anyone who even looks like they might disagree gets harassed, verbally abused, and is subjected to a background check. It just makes your whole case a lot less sympathetic, and nobody wants to post in there because everyone can see all the brigading nastiness that is coming from a very controlling and very vocal group. Which is the opposite of what should be the case in a forum like this. People should be able to have a discussion.

If they return to the level of moderation that was present in late Stormblood/early Shadowbringers, this would be cleaned up faster than you could blink. I think it's just worth flagging it to the senior dev members' attention, because the discussion around brigades itself is extremely topical post-DSR release, and they do take bullying and harassment extremely seriously (at least when they do take action). I think the balance needs to shift back closer to what it was historically. And if that means that the most negative response that you can offer is 'Nice Job!', then so be it.

Either way, if your group was hurling profanity at 'healer mains' to exclude them from SAM threads on the basis that the conversation was for 'DPS only', then it's only right that we also keep all the SAM threads contained within the DPS subforum.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I leveled Sam after the change and felt like I had to push Shinten after every attack to not overcap.
It was not engaging or fun and just felt spammy ^^"
It got old really fast for me, so I get why main Samurai's are upset about it..
I don't care for Sam at all, but even I felt like it was missing some depth.

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Yeah, that missing depth is the hole where Kaiten used to be. Removed because the job design team found it too "restrictive" to work with.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The DPS subforum is a mess right now because nobody is able to post in there except for the SAM brigade. Anything that's not a SAM thread gets rapidly scrolled off the first page by all the duplicate Kaiten/'I'm angry'/'I'm still posting two weeks after my screenshotted unsubscribe date' threads.

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Are you viewing the forums on an old 800x600 monitor from the 70's or something? There are at least a dozen non-SAM threads on the front page right now. And if you had ever bothered to check any of the SAM threads you'd know that there is a larger undercurrent that is pushing for change not just to SAM and other DPS jobs but also to re-evaluate the direction that tanks and healers have been going. So get out of here with the "back in my day we WHM's got moved to the healer forum uphill both ways in the snow!" crap. The issue at hand is much larger than simply SAM.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

sam is perfect the way it currently is

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Your SAM sits at lvl 81, how could you possibly know that without having played it at max level in any current content?
Please just stop, this is why we get dogshit changes...

I've only started leveling SAM recently, what is the big deal with this change? I haven't looked into it at all. Not implying it isn't a problem, just asking generally.