CC Rank should be linked to job

Has anybody else noticed that it seems like people say "I'm crystal and can't derank now, lets try this job I suck at" and basically cause 4v5s sometimes? Why not link your CC rank to a specific job you play. A: It would give you multiple climbs to do, B: would stop people from switching in crystal to "learn" at the expensive of those trying to climb their numbers. This can't be that hard to implement.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

Has anybody else noticed that it seems like people say "I'm crystal and can't derank now, lets try this job I suck at" and basically cause 4v5s sometimes? Why not link your CC rank to a specific job you play. A: It would give you multiple climbs to do, B: would stop people from switching in crystal to "learn" at the expensive of those trying to climb their numbers. This can't be that hard to implement.

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Of course it wouldn't be hard, the problem is that it would go against Square-Enix's general policies of instant gratification and not requiring anything except ultimates to require *too* much player effort. Like you said, every class should have its own individual ranking. "New" classes will start at a higher rank than normal, based on your highest-ranked class's rank. So if you have Warrior up to Crystal, you might start at Gold 3 if you picked up Dragoon.

But it's kind of pointless, isn't it? The ranking system does not measure player skill and, IMO, doesn't even try to. It's clearly not a skill-based matchmaking design system. I'm not sure really what it *is* supposed to be, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I'm not sure really what it *is* supposed to be, honestly.

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"When I play, the number goes up and that makes my brain produce the good chemicals"

The chances are higher that a player like that is in the other team.
Enemy team has 5 potential bad player while your team only has 4.

You just have to play enough matches so that these chances work in your favor.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The chances are higher that a player like that is in the other team.
Enemy team has 5 potential bad player while your team only has 4.

You just have to play enough matches so that these chances work in your favor.

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Don't take this as "I want to win every game". If it was easy, everybody would be crystal. The climb is part of the challenge. I simply want the lopsided matches due to people queing in on an off job at high ranks to end. Most of the time when you see it, it's only 1 player of 10. It's just a 50/50 shot of which team they are on. It's not a serious problem, just one that could be easily addressed IMHO

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The chances are higher that a player like that is in the other team.
Enemy team has 5 potential bad player while your team only has 4.

You just have to play enough matches so that these chances work in your favor.

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Wow, truly mastermind thoughts. You are getting griefed? Just play more games 4Head

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Wow, truly mastermind thoughts. You are getting griefed? Just play more games 4Head

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Yes, that's how all team PvP games work.
Many tried to fix it but non succeed.

It is what it is and you always have to deal with teammates like that.

And yes, play more to let the odds be in your favor.
It's like rolling a dice. Do it 10 times and you maybe get a 1 50% of the rolls.
Do it 100 times and you get the 1 15% of the rolls.
Do it 1000 times and the 1 appears 16.7% of your rolls, same as any other number.

I actually would want this and would motivate me to play PvP more, since its acts like its own mini-game and achievement. Great suggestion!

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Yes, that's how all team PvP games work.
Many tried to fix it but non succeed.

It is what it is and you always have to deal with teammates like that.

And yes, play more to let the odds be in your favor.
It's like rolling a dice. Do it 10 times and you maybe get a 1 50% of the rolls.
Do it 100 times and you get the 1 15% of the rolls.
Do it 1000 times and the 1 appears 16.7% of your rolls, same as any other number.

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So you're telling me the best your brain could come up with was explaining a rule of three to me and ignoring that it's stupid idea that people who chill in the save haven grief people who want to climb the ladder further?

If only we had a system against that? like separate jobs and a hidden elo. AH NO, NO, NO, then I guess everyone just has to deal with the fact that half of all games are troll games.

I mean duh, it's a game about having fun, is it not? That's why they build in a ranked ladder and then give rewards based on the position of that ladder.

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Originally Posted by GayRobot

"When I play, the number goes up and that makes my brain produce the good chemicals"

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Yeah, pretty much. Monkey brain numbers big happy is probably a big part why they made Midare auto-crit, etc. Feels good to see that big number at the end of your chain. I'd think that that sort of thing would allow for class-specific rankings, though. It's just like normal levels, you get to watch numbers go up.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Yes, that's how all team PvP games work.
Many tried to fix it but non succeed.

It is what it is and you always have to deal with teammates like that.

And yes, play more to let the odds be in your favor.
It's like rolling a dice. Do it 10 times and you maybe get a 1 50% of the rolls.
Do it 100 times and you get the 1 15% of the rolls.
Do it 1000 times and the 1 appears 16.7% of your rolls, same as any other number.

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This crap is only a problem in games with bad matchmaking and CC very much has bad matchmaking....Actually its safer to say that CC has zero matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

This crap is only a problem in games with bad matchmaking and CC very much has bad matchmaking....Actually its safer to say that CC has zero matchmaking.

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Ohh, you have the same problem in CS:go, LoL, Valorant, Dota2, R6s. Just to name the ones I climbed ranks.

There are always people in ranks were they don't belong, trolls and griefers, myths about a "ELO hell" and complains about the ranking system and how it is stupid in their specific game.

It's just a problem that existent forever and a MMORPG will not fix a problem that multiple PvP e-sports games failed to fix, because there is not much to be fixed.

Some people are just selfish, stupid, angry, have a bad day or anything else. You can't changes that.
Report them and move on to another round.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The chances are higher that a player like that is in the other team.
Enemy team has 5 potential bad player while your team only has 4.

You just have to play enough matches so that these chances work in your favor.

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Certainly doesn't feel that way in Platinum so far. About 9 games out of 10 are massacres (~20 kills and ~5 deaths) in favor of the opposing team. If that isn't quality matchmaking, I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

Why not link your CC rank to a specific job you play.

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People moan enough about one sided matches as it is. Having tons of crystal smurfs queuing on lower ranks would exacerbate the problem by a lot. Terrible idea.

If people want to learn other jobs, casual is always open so they don't hurt other people trying to rank. Can't police every selfish a**hole out there.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Ohh, you have the same problem in CS:go, LoL, Valorant, Dota2, R6s. Just to name the ones I climbed ranks.

There are always people in ranks were they don't belong, trolls and griefers, myths about a "ELO hell" and complains about the ranking system and how it is stupid in their specific game.

It's just a problem that existent forever and a MMORPG will not fix a problem that multiple PvP e-sports games failed to fix, because there is not much to be fixed.

Some people are just selfish, stupid, angry, have a bad day or anything else. You can't changes that.
Report them and move on to another round.

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If you're legitimately good, especially in shooters you WILL climb out of the ranks you don't belong in. When you reach a point where you cannot just completely backpack then you have peaked and reached the rank you should be in. A good matchmaking system will put you into a point where your matches are 50/50. Games that cannot reach that 50/50 design do not have good matchmaking which is the current problem of CC's ranked mode. It doesn't have a legitimate matchmaking. It just looks at a range for your current ranked and tosses everyone into it. I highly doubt there's any real elo sitting behind the queue system for CC.

People who go on about "elo hell" and being "stuck in a rank they don't belong in" are just players that can't accept that they have plateaued and are indeed in the rank they belong in. This happens in fighters, shooters, etc...

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Originally Posted by Petite

People moan enough about one sided matches as it is. Having tons of crystal smurfs queuing on lower ranks would exacerbate the problem by a lot. Terrible idea.

If people want to learn other jobs, casual is always open so they don't hurt other people trying to rank. Can't police every selfish a**hole out there.

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The concern about smurfing is valid, but the issue with casual is that there's no expectation of good, reliable games there so there's a real limit to how much you can learn. Believe me, I've tried to learn new classes there and it's not always a good place to do it. It's enough to learn a few basic runs through the class's rotation and stuff, but it's not going to be able to show you stuff you need to know to play against competent players.

You can clearly tell which players were into ranked pvp in other games before CC was released, and which ones are just experiencing the ladder climb for the first time

You get people complaining about elo hell, that they deserve to be higher than their rank, and how team/matchmaking/whatever other type of copium is holding them back in pretty much every game that has a ladder. They’re generally considered delusional clowns in the community for every game, for good reason. It’s to the point where there’s an entire, reasonably popular, subset of streams and vods where high elo players will smurf and climb from bronze to (whatever top rank is called) to prove elo hell isn’t a thing, or cast matches/stream coaching where you invariably find out the bronze who thinks he’s diamond is actually just so awful that he doesn’t know how bad he is.

CC matchmaking is (or at least appears) to be worse than average and impact of skill diff isn’t as obscene as other genres, so the carry potential is reduced yes. It kind of evens out though since the ranking system is weighted so much harder compared to most systems toward letting you climb fast with streaking, that the speed of climb seems to be similar regardless. No loss streaks, no demotions in major tiers, no gating with promotion series, no rank decay, etc… makes it kind of ridiculously easy to rank up and stay at a rank, compared to how much consistency is required in most other games.

I'd rahter not have Job based ranking, I often play 3 or 4 Jobs depending on who I meet in queue and if there's serious lack of some role.

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Originally Posted by Petite

People moan enough about one sided matches as it is. Having tons of crystal smurfs queuing on lower ranks would exacerbate the problem by a lot. Terrible idea.

If people want to learn other jobs, casual is always open so they don't hurt other people trying to rank. Can't police every selfish a**hole out there.

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Then boost them to gold to start the new job if they are already crystal, if they are that good, they won't stay there for long. The problem is, these crystal people are going into games with people who are diamond trying to climb and wrecking their games since they don't care about going into casual. Again, I this isn't about winning every game, its to help those people truely trying to climb from dealing with this. I'm crystal and it only took me about 50 games in diamond to make it through, but I hear of people playing 500-600 games in diamond, and half the time they are seeing this is what is causing their back and forth so much.

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Originally Posted by Saucy_Jack

You can clearly tell which players were into ranked pvp in other games before CC was released, and which ones are just experiencing the ladder climb for the first time

You get people complaining about elo hell, that they deserve to be higher than their rank, and how team/matchmaking/whatever other type of copium is holding them back in pretty much every game that has a ladder. They’re generally considered delusional clowns in the community for every game, for good reason. It’s to the point where there’s an entire, reasonably popular, subset of streams and vods where high elo players will smurf and climb from bronze to (whatever top rank is called) to prove elo hell isn’t a thing, or cast matches/stream coaching where you invariably find out the bronze who thinks he’s diamond is actually just so awful that he doesn’t know how bad he is.

CC matchmaking is (or at least appears) to be worse than average and impact of skill diff isn’t as obscene as other genres, so the carry potential is reduced yes. It kind of evens out though since the ranking system is weighted so much harder compared to most systems toward letting you climb fast with streaking, that the speed of climb seems to be similar regardless. No loss streaks, no demotions in major tiers, no gating with promotion series, no rank decay, etc… makes it kind of ridiculously easy to rank up and stay at a rank, compared to how much consistency is required in most other games.

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Though I agree with this statement in theory, there is a serious difference between your average bronze/silver player and your average diamond/crystal player. Everything in between seems much less muddled. I can see 100% why they don't let people duo que TBH, because two good jobs that are on comms could completly dominate if played right. one person makes a HUGE impact if played right. You could carry a bronze silver game as a single person easily if you are a decent crystal player, but once you hit gold and on up, that becomes less and less the case.

Simple solution, if you make crystal as one job, start all other jobs at gold and make them climb from there. Heck, also adds the ability for other achievements and reward opertunities.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

Though I agree with this statement in theory, there is a serious difference between your average bronze/silver player and your average diamond/crystal player. Everything in between seems much less muddled. I can see 100% why they don't let people duo que TBH, because two good jobs that are on comms could completly dominate if played right. one person makes a HUGE impact if played right. You could carry a bronze silver game as a single person easily if you are a decent crystal player, but once you hit gold and on up, that becomes less and less the case.

Simple solution, if you make crystal as one job, start all other jobs at gold and make them climb from there. Heck, also adds the ability for other achievements and reward opertunities.

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Oh I don’t disagree. Heck even in my own play I can see a ridiculous amount of stuff I did wrong at the start of my climb vs now. I do think the system does allow for a degree of getting boosted to a tier higher than you should from just variance and streaking though.

Letting you start at a lower rank for other jobs wouldn’t actually be a bad idea, since playing in casual has limits to how well you can learn it and you don’t have to grief teams of people actually trying to climb in crystal with your barely gold level alt job until you get practiced up

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

there's a real limit to how much you can learn. Believe me, I've tried to learn new classes there and it's not always a good place to do it. It's enough to learn a few basic runs through the class's rotation and stuff, but it's not going to be able to show you stuff you need to know to play against competent players.

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Game sense & knowledge do transfer. And you make it sound like learning a job with 6~8 buttons is rocket science. You're clearly being disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

its to help those people truely trying to climb […] I hear of people playing 500-600 games in diamond, and half the time they are seeing this is what is causing their back and forth so much.

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Have you ever thought maybe that’s where they belong? If they’re still stuck in diamond after 500 games they should consider themselves lucky they can’t derank. Instead, these miserable snivelers will reject introspection, blame constant bad-luck, make sh*t up and throw self-pity parties for themselves on here. Avoid taking such stories at face value.

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Originally Posted by Petite

Have you ever thought maybe that’s where they belong? If they’re still stuck in diamond after 500 games they should consider themselves lucky they can’t derank. Instead, these miserable snivelers will reject introspection, blame constant bad-luck, make sh*t up and throw self-pity parties for themselves on here. Avoid taking such stories at face value.

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Oh, I am not argueing this point at all. As I climbed through diamond though, it was bluntly apparent that sometimes the inability to derank was giving people the "option" to play something totally new, thus wrecking the chances of somebody else trying to push higher who may or may not deserve the rank they are trying to obtain.

I would also be lying if I said I have not considered trying out some new jobs while I'm crystal with low points before I try to climb the score, but I don't want to devalue somebody elses chances for the convience of my own experience, so my option is to use a dummy at the pier, or play casual, yet I what I need to do is learn how the combos and such work against skilled players. Casual could provide that, sometimes, or it could provide 9 people who are on their second CC game ever and have never pvped before that.

I just think allowing us to rank up multiple jobs differently will provide for a better over all experience for all involved, those climbing, and those trying to make the climb. It is entirely possibly for a player to be a crystal dragoon, but only a gold samarui, some people just click better with other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Petite

Game sense & knowledge do transfer. And you make it sound like learning a job with 6~8 buttons is rocket science. You're clearly being disingenuous.

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And yet you and I could both point to people that play like absolute garbage and don't even do basic, competent DPS rotations. I think you're the one being disingenuous to act like there isn't nuance to each class. There's a lot of difference between a MNK that's just mashing buttons and a MNK that is timing ability use for maximum effect.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

And yet you and I could both point to people that play like absolute garbage and don't even do basic, competent DPS rotations. I think you're the one being disingenuous to act like there isn't nuance to each class. There's a lot of difference between a MNK that's just mashing buttons and a MNK that is timing ability use for maximum effect.

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Because someone is playing badly, doesn't mean they're on an alt-job. They most likely are just bad, period. Lots of those even in crystal.

My point was that Casual is good enough for someone to pick up a job and practice it to a competent level. Then it's perfectly fine for them to queue back in ranked Crystal and master it further. Are you gonna refute even that notion?

But mainly, a few idiots deciding not to practice a new job before queuing ranked doesn't warrant penalizing the whole community by tying ranking to individual jobs.

The grand majority of players quite enjoy the option to be flexible on 2-3 jobs either to play around map cycles and/or keep things fresh.

If you can't handle a few such losses so much that you want to implement this limitation to all of us, I suggest you reflect on your misplaced sense of self righteousness and get some fresh air.

The entire point is that you would have true skill-based matchmaking. If I can queue into a high skill game with a class I know nothing about, then that defeats the purpose and function of that system. Are you really so unwilling to admit that?

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Originally Posted by Petite

If you can't handle a few such losses so much that you want to implement this limitation to all of us, I suggest you reflect on your misplaced sense of self righteousness and get some fresh air.

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If you're so good with all three of those classes, why are you refusing so badly to climb all 3 of them for extra achievements and rewards anyway? It's not penalizing a community, it's giving them something extra to work towards.

The self entitlement is to think you should be just handed something for free without having to work for it. That seems to run rampant in this game lately.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

Has anybody else noticed that it seems like people say "I'm crystal and can't derank now, lets try this job I suck at" and basically cause 4v5s sometimes? Why not link your CC rank to a specific job you play. A: It would give you multiple climbs to do, B: would stop people from switching in crystal to "learn" at the expensive of those trying to climb their numbers. This can't be that hard to implement.

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De-ranking. Limit it exclusively from crystal to diamond if necessary. Then only allow crystals to fight crystals.

Problem solved.

That was one element of feast that was spot on.

Wish developer can add stats to player profile. Since there is scoreboard at end of the match. Think is also more easy to track how players perform in match. XD

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Originally Posted by KickRox

De-ranking. Limit it exclusively from crystal to diamond if necessary. Then only allow crystals to fight crystals.

Problem solved.

That was one element of feast that was spot on.

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It would be an improvement but I'm not convinced it would entirely solve the issue. But it would be an improvement, so definitely let's at least start there.

I agree, there should be a derank. I don't think it should be as simply as "you're out of stars, fall down 1" but maybe a "you're out of stars, if you lose 4 outta the next 5, you derank. People get on strings of bad luck. Maybe thats even to easy, maybe it's 3 outta next 5......but there needs to be a way to force people to try. I think linking rank to job in conjuction with this fix might just do that.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

I agree, there should be a derank. I don't think it should be as simply as "you're out of stars, fall down 1" but maybe a "you're out of stars, if you lose 4 outta the next 5, you derank. People get on strings of bad luck. Maybe thats even to easy, maybe it's 3 outta next 5......but there needs to be a way to force people to try. I think linking rank to job in conjuction with this fix might just do that.

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That would be a pretty solid system to work off of. I'd also expand the amount of points you can win and lose based on total point discrepancy as well, to make losing games in Crystal potentially more harmful to your rating. Getting into and maintaining Crystal status should be meaningful. Making it so that Crystals can only face against other Crystals and you can de-rank out of Crystal (I would start people over at Diamond 5 with no stars, even) would make it more competitive and make Crystal, at least, be slightly more effective for measuring player skill levels.

I definitely don't like that Crystal status is basically a freebie if you just play enough games and/or get enough lucky streaks. That's something that definitely needs to change.

I think the main reason you don't derank out of crystal is because its basically a completely different rating system from all the other tiers and the devs probably fear that people would reach crystal and then just stop playing if ranking out of it is possible. That said, outside of crystal I think deranking back a tier is perfectly fine, but I have no problem with crystal ranks staying in crystal once you reach it due simply to the fact that crystal has its own rating system.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

It would be an improvement but I'm not convinced it would entirely solve the issue. But it would be an improvement, so definitely let's at least start there.

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Yea I’m in agreement with you that it’s not a complete fix; but I think it the closest we get to solving it without any other major changes to the system. It’s also the “evil you know” in that it’s been implemented before with results that serious players know and trust (to a reasonable degree) firsthand.

But some people new to FF14 PvP; oof they’re not going to like it. Which quite honestly is a good thing. The only reason not to like it, is because players can’t casually practice on jobs they aren’t proficient with, which is exactly what we are trying to eradicate from high-level play.

But, as you said, it’s a start.

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Originally Posted by Nytes

I agree, there should be a derank. I don't think it should be as simply as "you're out of stars, fall down 1" but maybe a "you're out of stars, if you lose 4 outta the next 5, you derank. People get on strings of bad luck. Maybe thats even to easy, maybe it's 3 outta next 5......but there needs to be a way to force people to try. I think linking rank to job in conjuction with this fix might just do that.

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I can get behind this. Almost the other side of the “streak bonus” coin. I agree: Let’s not toss everyone back to diamond who has a rough couple of rounds but nothing wrong with a metaphorical “ listen, you might want to tighten up and get on a job you can win with because if you lose three more in a row, you either: don’t belong in this tier or you’re not giving your four teammates a fair shot at winning,” de-ranking system.

They should have the rating system from get-go and have few more variables for gaining and losing rating so it isn't completely binary. They could still keep winstreak bonuses for lower ranks that get reduced the higher rank you hit.