All addons are not equal

An issue I am seeing is that people use the term addons to refer to literally anything which is an issue because:

There's harmless addons like ones that fix helmets for hrothgar

There's possibly toxic addons like dps meters that CAN lead to toxicity

And there's addons that should absolutely be tracked and banned like ones that show encounter mechanic timers and announcing of mechanics happening that not only trivialize the difficulty of said encounter, it makes people reliant on those which results in a terrible culture like in WoW.


The first 2 categories imo worked fine under the current ruleset, they are "not allowed" but if nobody knows it has happened, no harm was done. (Uploading logs into a public site though, often without even the consent of everyone is another thing and log sites should be tracked and uploaders banned)


The third category though is not only making a joke out of the encounter design efforts but they also hurt the game and the community by trying to turn it into WoW and should ACTIVELY be scanned during play and any player using them banned.

It feels like the wow migrants are trying to import the tryhard mentality of a billion addons and raid support tools because they cant clear without depending on addons telling them what to do, which is not only wrong but unhealthy for raid design and even WoW devs have admitted that it makes raid design problematic.

So please SE considering actively searching for such addons and banning them outright!

The DBM (WoW addon that told you what the boss is or was going to do) is baked in the parse utility (though as far as I know you have to turn it on within the utility), so if SE decided to do what they said they wouldn't do and spy into people's PCs. Then I imagine the other powerful tool out there would get DBM (as complex fights makes such a tool likely highly desirable by some players), and so you'd also be detecting for the custom launcher lol. Not saying you can't do that but just that the tool(s) that can or do what you described would both need to be burnt in order for that third clause to happen.

DBM tool that is active has been around for a long while, and before it there was inbuilt scripts people could make for it that did functionally similar things if you cared enough (I'm wondering if it wont be such now, but before all of this was really easy to learn by looking at reddit just occasionally).

I'm really curious how much impact it would have, given that FFXIV seems to have a little bit more casual audience, and that casual audience is already the majority group in most games (even WoW with vaguely similar 1 - 10% like numbers, depending on what content you're looking at). Potentially if you went scorched earth you might see a direct participation impact to those harder contents.

Would be funny that to save the hard content you end up making it even less attractive which leads to the numbers showing it's even less player engaged leading to SE putting less importance on making them lol. (Conversely said the increase in player awareness and reduced stress and thus increased participation given DBM like tools is why SE has recently felt skill increases, so taking action against them might lead to them seeing the original if not worse numbers since the DBM like tool in FFXIV is fairly old though both tools have increased in attention a lot in recent time)

SE can do whatever they want but I'm still of the mind, from basically a decade ago on the forums, that you cant stop the addons- and if you force them to exist in the dark you're going to lack control over them. Making the game good enough that most addons are pointless is an interesting solution and I hope that is successful though, and even if it's not everyone is still a winner because the game offers more power. (I imagine such an attempt may decrease reliance on it at least).

Not even saying the tool may not be having a negative impact to the game like DBM as I do believe it increases awareness in a very effective way and as such SE might be thinking "wow our players are getting better, we need to up the ante"- but I feel given how SE approaches design the issue is not as pronounced as they have created a quality control technique in that they test the content themselves, and also ensure certain player skill levels can do certain content (like when Yoshida had to remove someone from the test team because they got too good lol), which helps dampen the damage such a tool could do. Since the team plays the game without tools (I hope at least lol), it allows them to ensure they're not asking more than is reasonable from a non-tool player.

From what I know, at least hearing about certain infamous bosses, in WoW they didn't always ensure they could complete the content because they assumed their players were better (and in essence did allow DBM to have a greater runaway effect, making it an essential tool unless you had exceptional memory and response time.. or doing easy content :p).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

I'm really curious how much impact it would have, given that FFXIV seems to have a little bit more casual audience, and that casual audience is already the majority group in most games (even WoW with vaguely similar 1 - 10% like numbers, depending on what content you're looking at).

---

I am not as curious because we have WoW as an example, even though like you said casuals are the majority even in games like WoW that mentality has taken hold since it spreads like a disease if it is tolerated even to lower level content. You would occasionally see topics about some elitist complaining about the performance of someone in heroic dungeons which are equivalent to MSQ dungeons in ff14 where you can literally do them with multiple people dead, a more adequate example would be people demanding meta for a +6 key while people are doing 20s during that time.
The mentality that comes with said addons is my main concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

SE can do whatever they want but I'm still of the mind, from basically a decade ago on the forums, that you cant stop the addons- and if you force them to exist in the dark you're going to lack control over them.

---

You are correct, they will always exist, but I honestly dont mind them if they are used secretly by a tiny minority that has to actively hide from SE.

Right now SE might as well have given their approval when people watch streams with people using similar addons or even basic addons and never getting punished for it even though they are all against the ToS, the previous rule of "use it but be quiet about it" worked as long as we dont have streamers influencing thousands by using addons publicly like that and saying its cool. Because afaik only some JP streamer got banned, there's a ton of western streamers who used addons publicly and didnt get banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

I do believe it increases awareness in a very effective way

---

I will utterly and completely disagree with that, people usually end up tunnel visioning and having the addon or raid leader wake them up to the mechanic because you often see if the raid lead forgets to mention something many people screw up because they depend on addon/raid lead to tell them "Yo, mechanic inbound". Which imo is completely wrong, a raid lead should be there for when there's uncertainty and people have to make a decision quick, not to literally baby sit you and tell you when mechanics happen, that should be personal responsibility.

Which is a terrible thing because there's many mechanics that require you to track add positioning or some type of visual element that changes over the duration of the encounter that might come from some random direction, so if you are to respond adequately you need to also pay attention to it and not just forget it until the last minute call else you might not have enough time or space to survive.

This SERIOUS lack of spacial awareness is something very common in WoW's high end content and that is because people never learned the mechanic through in game visual signs to begin with and instead depended on addons or raid leads.

And its not just "oh our players are getting better", mechanics become far easier when you have a timer or unique mechanic announcing sounds, it literally is easy mode with them which results in dev having to make it even harder to compensate for the use of such addons which leads to more complicated mechanics and further problems, hence why such addons shouldnt be tolerated publicly, let them exist only in the shadows unlike know where they are literally public. And that will also hurt streamers who cant clear without addon help xd

This is just a total non-issue that people are turning into an issue and it's kinda embarrassing tbh.
I do think it's a very small minority and primarily people who have a history of just going out of their way to intentionally get upset at the devs for everything even just totally imagined issues.
It kinda speaks volumes too for how good we actually have it when you consider the issues they get mad about compared to other games.

But it's kinda embarrassing when it's brought to the attention of people outside of the community.
Anyone above the age 9 and who's even just slightly charitable with their interpretation understands exactly what Yoshida meant.
Nothing at all has changed and they shouldn't have to treat people like children in how they speak about things.

Simple….


We have youtube guide videos for raid mechanics understanding, there’s ingame markers for positioning, effective communication, accept trial & error happens, still be persistent,

There shouldn’t be any addons/mod at all…..nothing it brings justifies the outcome of success except through reinforcing it as a meta,

It shouldn’t be a thing at all….period

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vencio

Simple….


We have youtube guide videos for raid mechanics understanding, there’s ingame markers for positioning, effective communication, accept trial & error happens, still be persistent,

There shouldn’t be any addons/mod at all…..nothing it brings justifies the outcome of success except through reinforcing it as a meta,

It shouldn’t be a thing at all….period

---

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

The real ones that should be hunted down and snuffed out are the Chinese bots that practically infest the game now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

---

Funny joke.

All addons are not equal, but the tos applies to all addons equally. Thank you have a nice day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilford111

All addons are not equal, but the tos applies to all addons equally. Thank you have a nice day.

---

That's the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

That's the problem.

---

What's the problem?

Before you answer, I have been reading the forums all day. I've yet to see a problem with Yoshi-P's and SE's stance on third-party addons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilford111

I've yet to see a problem with Yoshi-P's and SE's stance on third-party addons.

---

Well I hope you continue to see no problem with Yoshi P and SE's stance because it seems they're willing to change that and compromise by making enhancements to the HUD and UI.

It's weird seeing someone who's entire identity revolves around anti-elitism arguing that some third party tools are bad because they make the game too easy and more accessible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilford111

I've yet to see a problem with Yoshi-P's and SE's stance on third-party addons.

---

You mean SE's stance of literally letting countless streamers playing with addons very visible on and publicly in streamer platforms?

Because that shows a contradiction, that shows SE's approval of addons even if ToS says otherwise, you cant have it both ways.
And i am certain big streamers have been reported for the use of addons but SE chose to not act upon such reports because afaik only that one JP streamer got banned and that was for a few days, unless there's a huge banwave to all public addon users SE has chosen to approve addons which will inevitably turn this game as bad as wow in time if not stopped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's weird seeing someone who's entire identity revolves around anti-elitism arguing that some third party tools are bad because they make the game too easy and more accessible.

---

Because you confuse anti elitism as pro carebear, the anti elitism targets specifically the mentally unhealthy mentality of connecting one's self worth to video game achievements, that is my problem with such people and design philosophies. For example raiders want to be treated as special and get better rewards than solo players, that is because they unironically believe they are special because they have connected their self worth to video game raiding achievements.
When you are afraid others are gonna get the same rewards, your attachment to video game achievements is revealed because I never had an issue with solo or casual players getting max gear for example because it is my own personal ability that differentiates me from them, not my gear ilvl.

An encounter is designed with certain difficulty in mind, that design is thrown out of the window when you try to turn it into easy mode with timer and announcer addons as well using the most broken comb

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilford111

All addons are not equal, but the tos applies to all addons equally. Thank you have a nice day.

---

I agree with this statement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I am not as curious because we have WoW as an example, even though like you said casuals are the majority even in games like WoW that mentality has taken hold since it spreads like a disease if it is tolerated even to lower level content. You would occasionally see topics about some elitist complaining about the performance of someone in heroic dungeons which are equivalent to MSQ dungeons in ff14 where you can literally do them with multiple people dead, a more adequate example would be people demanding meta for a +6 key while people are doing 20s during that time.
The mentality that comes with said addons is my main concern.

---

I don't want to suggest changes as big as DBM like tools cant effect the culture but given how SE designs content, as you point out- I feel, personally, that even if it was sanctioned allowed... it wouldn't be as substantial. Though I respect you feel differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

You are correct, they will always exist, but I honestly dont mind them if they are used secretly by a tiny minority that has to actively hide from SE.

Right now SE might as well have given their approval when people watch streams with people using similar addons or even basic addons and never getting punished for it even though they are all against the ToS, the previous rule of "use it but be quiet about it" worked as long as we dont have streamers influencing thousands by using addons publicly like that and saying its cool. Because afaik only some JP streamer got banned, there's a ton of western streamers who used addons publicly and didnt get banned.

---

The fun part of don't ask don't tell (/s lol). I'm not particularly against addons, as I actually loved them in WoW even when they were annoying due to a patch (but that was in part because Blizzard didn't really care to ensure things worked). I understand some concerns are placed upon them, some of which I can vaguely understand and some of which I feel are stretched. I believe having a publicly allowed parser can do things like it did in WoW, but I don't really believe a private, allowed, would cause many if any issues. Some people may ask to see your parse, which you could simply lie or tell them to go get Thal'd lol. Though similarly I respect the concern, and community management is something difficult to get back on track once you feel you've lost it.. so... conservative approach isn't mystifying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I will utterly and completely disagree with that, people usually end up tunnel visioning and having the addon or raid leader wake them up to the mechanic because you often see if the raid lead forgets to mention something many people screw up because they depend on addon/raid lead to tell them "Yo, mechanic inbound". Which imo is completely wrong, a raid lead should be there for when there's uncertainty and people have to make a decision quick, not to literally baby sit you and tell you when mechanics happen, that should be personal responsibility.

Which is a terrible thing because there's many mechanics that require you to track add positioning or some type of visual element that changes over the duration of the encounter that might come from some random direction, so if you are to respond adequately you need to also pay attention to it and not just forget it until the last minute call else you might not have enough time or space to survive.

This SERIOUS lack of spacial awareness is something very common in WoW's high end content and that is because people never learned the mechanic through in game visual signs to begin with and instead depended on addons or raid leads.

And its not just "oh our players are getting better", mechanics become far easier when you have a timer or unique mechanic announcing sounds, it literally is easy mode with them which results in dev having to make it even harder to compensate for the use of such addons which leads to more complicated mechanics and further problems, hence why such addons shouldnt be tolerated publicly, let them exist only in the shadows unlike know where they are literally public. And that will also hurt streamers who cant clear without addon help xd

---

I think you agree with me but maybe disagree on wording. Because what I meant is that, like a baby sitter raid leader, the tool will keep you hyper informed. GET OUT OF LAVA, STAND IN CIRCLE, GO TO "X" PLAYER. This to me is called awareness, now you might like it if I called it artificial awareness since it wasn't a skill provided by the player but rather by a parrot shouting mechanics.. but functionally it's still awareness.

As such if a player is more aware, whether naturally or artificially, this has an impact on play ability. Such that I would argue on a aggregate whole such tools have a direct impact in the ability of players and thus allow them to perform better more consistently while using less personal stress / skills. For me in WoW for example I found the tool helpful to casually enjoy harder content, as I can easily follow instructions but I just don't want to memorize the fights lol. Having used the DBM type stuff in WoW (another one existed back then too) I would argue it was a direct impact on my ability to output high performance while also feeling less challenged at the same time. Naturally this impacts perception for both players and developers. "This content is easy" says the player with the professional never wrong parrot- silly statement, and may cause damage to players who don't use the tool (and likely annoyance to the devs). Also messes with statistics and expectations devs have of players. Then again I feel given SE tests their own content, to which I assume, without tools I think they have significantly dampened the damage from the situation and such I am less worried about it and don't care. If someone uses to have a more stress free / easy experience then whatever. In most situations I don't care if someone made it a bit easier in such a way, though I can see how doing it for the hardest content in the game as a race of skill is quite upsetting.

Personally I don't think being aggressive on banning will help much on the situation, particularly if they don't scan the PCs (in that case, pretty much just hot air even if they punish a few streamers), but I do think adding the things players think are useful without damaging intended gameplay is a smart alleviation to dissuade more people from feeling the need to use the third party tools. Also may consider adding an official framework to which you could have even more control over the situation, but /shrug. The whole situation will feel like variations of losing no matter what lol. I've been okay with the don't ask don't tell type policy but certainly I see ultimate's can make that more frustrating for those who want to show off their talents (particularly speaking ultimate, as otherwise I generally think people playing how they want is fine so long as it's not like toggle god mode or infinite gil hacks lol).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

An issue I am seeing is that people use the term addons to refer to literally anything which is an issue because:

There's harmless addons like ones that fix helmets for hrothgar

There's possibly toxic addons like dps meters that CAN lead to toxicity

---

These two examples will equally affect FFXIV sales.
When people act toxic in game for a DPS meter, it may cause a player to leave.
When a player posts screen shots of a Hrothgar wearing a helmet online, and in game you can't display that helmet with out an add on, people will leave.

Both are a direct result of players using add ons in ways they shouldn't.
Your trolls are getting to Titanman level stupidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

When a player posts screen shots of a Hrothgar wearing a helmet online, and in game you can't display that helmet with out an add on, people will leave.

---

I like how this one would be a non-issue if they put any sort of effort into Hrothgar. I reckon more people will leave when they see the piss poor options they have for customization, then for mods to fix those issues.

There's really 3 parts to it..

1. They have no way of checking what addons/mods one has installed, and because there are ones they definitely do not want to be there they're just making a blanket statement that all of them are prohibited.

2. The only way to use them is to actually modify the game itself and they don't want people doing that, and also against the ToS.

And a slightly lesser third, Yoshi did say that they're not gonna be responsible if anything happens to your PC or your account from someone possibly hiding some malware in the tools, mods or addons...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

That's the problem.

---

The problem, ToS?

True they're not, while banning all of them is more or less a legal shield for SE so they don't have to sort out what's okay and what's not. That would be way too much work and let's be real there are other more pressing matters here. Just don't show them on stream or harass others with it and nothing will happen. (Still against the ToS, pls YoshiP don't ban me, I'm not endorsing, I'm a good little lizard!)

Some Mods for example change your character and while if you give your Hrothgar some ears with certain hairstyles, it's really harmless, however if you give your lala a huge male reproductive organ and take "erotic" screenshots with it, that is something the devs don't want to see as it's not really something you want your game associated with.

Same with some Ui changes. Is it bad to make a cooldowntimer bigger? I doubt it. It is however unfair if you have an add-on that shows you, where it is safe to stand while non telegraphed mechanics happen. That is just good old cheating.
And tbh I don't even care for them in an non competitive envoirment. It's whatever too me, I don't use it, and I don't have respect for people who do. But if you participate in the race to world first. It's unfair.
We don't really want that high end raider feel the need for those add-ons to be able to compete, we would end with the same climate WoW has, and that wouldn't be healthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

That's the problem.

---

Legitimately curious what this problem is. You're not going to convince them to change the ToS, since this is literally legal text that goes well beyond the credentials of nearly every player of this game. Is the problem that people can't stand the idea that they're violating the ToS? As a 3rd party program user for this games still active predecessor, I can assure you that it gets easier and its not a big deal.

The way I see it - if someone uses these third party tools and then capitalizes on them by streaming it, they deserve whatever they get. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also, can't fix stupid.

Your gif made me chuckle!

Good one!

Since ancient FFXIV times: "Don't use them. If you do, be discreet, don't get caught".

The same person has said: "If we have to start telling people what's ok and what isn't, there's no end to the discussion, so we won't do it".

Yes you're right, all addons are not functionally equal, but all of them are still addons and the TOS has been clear since day 1.

Acknowledge the wink wink, nudge nudge people have always been given about it. To more or less extent, people have used them in a semi-public yet discreet manner. This isn't a today or this month or this year thing. It has ALWAYS been the same. People being offered an inch and taking a mile are a problem. Applies to either side.

A lot of people use the "it is harmless" argument, But even if it is harmless, it is still not allowed. For a GM, doesn't mean anything if they have the obligation of taking action.

This is what people fails to understand, and they think the other are the ones that doesn't understand. Even if the application only writes hello in the game chat, it is still not allowed. Doesn't matter if it is harmless or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

Legitimately curious what this problem is. You're not going to convince them to change the ToS, since this is literally legal text that goes well beyond the credentials of nearly every player of this game. Is the problem that people can't stand the idea that they're violating the ToS? As a 3rd party program user for this games still active predecessor, I can assure you that it gets easier and its not a big deal.

---

The problem is exactly what I quoted. Not all add-ons have the same kind of impact on the game, but they're all treated the same in the ToS.

1. Some add-ons only affect the graphics or UI information displayed on the client. GShade, buff timers, chat bubbles for example. They have no impact on another player's experience.

2. Some add-ons address serious issues that could prevent certain players from performing as well as others, such as latency-based animation delays or lack of accessibility options. These could be seen as providing advantages if abused.

3. Some add-ons make mostly harmless hobbies in the game, like posing, music playing, or housing easier, but alter the game in ways that are perceivable by other players and may involve automation or glitches.

4. Some add-ons allow players to do things which are normally impossible or automate gameplay in ways that harm others' experiences, like gold farm or pvp botting.

Why should all these things be treated as equal?

IMO they should focus on the things that provide tangible advantages or affect other players' games. By that I mean aggressively ban #4, implement gameplay features that make #3 redundant, address the underlying issues associated with #2, and ignore or incorporate ideas from #1.

That does not mean scanning for mods like OP wants. That's gross and I hate it when any game company implements intrusive anti-cheat or DRM.

Mostly what SE has done in the past anyway is ignore everything but botting. The exception are cases where some people in this great community decide to witch hunt streamers or specific players for mods of the #1 variety, not because they're concerned about the use of mods but because they have a personal grudge against the player. SE's blanket ban on mods compels them to take action against these players even though the infraction is nowhere near as serious as #4. Whenever one of these cases goes public there's immediate backlash against it and a flurry of activity from worried forum posters. I think it would benefit SE to have more nuance on this issue.

We might not convince them to change the ToS, but we won't know unless we try.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

A lot of people use the "it is harmless" argument, But even if it is harmless, it is still not allowed. For a GM, doesn't mean anything if they have the obligation of taking action.

---

Yet you dont see GMs banning a lot of big streamers who are publicly using dps meters and raid support addons so the "its not allowed" argument doesnt really work anymore.

Because big streamers have absolutely been reported for use of such addons with video evidence yet those reports have been ignored by GMs, banning a single JP streamer doesnt really change anything is 999 can get away with publicly using them

Agreed. But
Speed and murder are both against the law.

And if you get caught speed enough you loss you drivers license, then you speed with out a drivers license and Share a room with big Bob who is a murder.

Just because some are qol and some are out right cheating. They treat them all as the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

Why should all these things be treated as equal?

---

Because that's how software works. You're still doing something to the game that is not intended. The way you're doing it is relying on modders to create programs/tools that interacts with folders/files/etc that are legally controlled by SE. Even altering the shortcuts directory pathing is, in a broad sense, a grey area if not an outright violation (due to that being the same action as redirecting it to 3rd party tool launchers). Severity is irrelevant when you're trying to curb bad actions from people. This is protection for the company at large, not any of us or even exclusively the XIV team.

No major company does otherwise in this regard and blanket statements are the go-to. Letting things go, as they have been doing, is simply giving players an out if they don't abuse it... so that they don't have to waste time trying to catch people for things that are extremely hard to prove, if not impossible in-game (like Gshade).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

We might not convince them to change the ToS, but we won't know unless we try.

---

And I do encourage people to do that. I just rather people have stronger arguments that aren't correctly shut down immediately because they don't understand something as simple as a blanket legal text and how it'd be applied in context. I do agree that I would not want crap like Anti-Cheat in this game. Keep in mind however that, if forced to BY THE PLAYERS ACTIONS, they will go that route. Things would have to be really bad though to get to that point.

That said, like I pointed out about this being protection for the company, a handful of consumers aren't going to make them create unnecessary vulnerabilities. Most of us will just continue staying the course of using whatever, even if they don't say anything, because nothing actually changed for nearly everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

---

Your argument is so disingenuous. Having an addon that hooks the memory and announces mechanics prior to the tell rendering is not the same as a program that doesn't interact with the game in any way and allows people to interact via voice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

---

Where do you find yourself on the chart?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...42/unknown.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxilor

Where do you find yourself on the chart?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...42/unknown.png

---

I'd like to think the sarcasm in my original post was blatantly obvious, but Form+Function Purist, to be clear.