My Proposal on Recent Drama

The recent drama surrounding 3rd party tools has been a raging forest fire the past few days, as everyone knows. This thread is not about discussion of whether or not said 3rd party tools are good or bad. There are enough of those. Rather, I'm creating this thread in order to put forth my proposal for what I feel would be the best approach in solving the problem as best as possible.

My proposed solution would be 3-fold:
1st: For an internal team to determine which of the 3rd party tools add beneficial functionality to enhance the game, then implement those into the core game. Yoshi-P has already stated that they have plans to take this approach, so part 1 covered, I suppose.

2nd: Create a "workshop" of sorts for aesthetic modifications that then become sanctioned. These aesthetic modifications could function exactly the same as they do currently: Client-side only. Anyone that claims that model swaps, UI retexturing, etc.. is detrimental to the game, IMO, is simply incorrect. When these types of modifications are client-side only, whether someone has them or not really affects no one outside of those who use them. On the other hand, for some players, these types of mods become the life-blood of the game. Having a sanctioned workshop for such mods allows for these types of mods to exist, but before being usable they are vetted to ensure that they don't allow for any type of game-breaking behavior.

3: Officially sanction GShade/ReShade or implement a filtering engine into the game.

I love the game. I don't need any modifications. I do feel that there are certain aspects that are lacking in functionality or usability. It will inevitably and understandably take a while for SE to implement these functionalities. Unfortunately, I don't see this drama going away in the near future. I'm just hoping that the fires start to burn out soon, and the community can return to normal.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

1st: For an internal team to determine which of the 3rd party tools add beneficial functionality to enhance the game, then implement those into the core game. Yoshi-P has already stated that they have plans to take this approach, so part 1 covered, I suppose.

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good. its about time square does something like this. cd and buff timers arent cheats for crying out loud.

Square Enix doesn't need to amend any list, determine what is/isn't allowed, create additional tools to add any more bedazzling to your character, ect.

ToS is pretty simple to understand, don't use outside programs, addons or tools.

SE has made it's stance pretty clear, with the recent bans of people who blatantly use these things, during streaming, or video creation, that the use is against ToS.

FFXIV, is a beautiful game, it's content has been watered down so much that any content is done without too much effort, yet people keep going on and on about wanting them.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

1st: For an internal team to determine which of the 3rd party tools add beneficial functionality to enhance the game, then implement those into the core game. Yoshi-P has already stated that they have plans to take this approach, so part 1 covered, I suppose.

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The real question here is how far are they going to go? I'm betting we get like one or two things and it'll take five patches to get there.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

1st: For an internal team to determine which of the 3rd party tools add beneficial functionality to enhance the game, then implement those into the core game. Yoshi-P has already stated that they have plans to take this approach, so part 1 covered, I suppose.

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Per the terms of service, they've already done this with the list being completely empty. They've said they'd review plugins for QoL UI changes as part of their endeavour to improve the user interface for all users. It's not really a commit to add anything specific or do it by any particular patch.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

2nd: Create a "workshop" of sorts for aesthetic modifications that then become sanctioned. These aesthetic modifications could function exactly the same as they do currently: Client-side only. Anyone that claims that model swaps, UI retexturing, etc.. is detrimental to the game, IMO, is simply incorrect. When these types of modifications are client-side only, whether someone has them or not really affects no one outside of those who use them. On the other hand, for some players, these types of mods become the life-blood of the game. Having a sanctioned workshop for such mods allows for these types of mods to exist, but before being usable they are vetted to ensure that they don't allow for any type of game-breaking behavior.

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Yeah, never happening, why would they give you cosmetic plugins for free when they can sell cosmetics items in the cash store instead? Approved or not, it's just a better business model to sell it as a cash money item.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

3: Officially sanction GShade/ReShade or implement a filtering engine into the game.

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Bright 4 colour filter preset from gpose as my default for the entire game would be nice to have via the options menu. This is a feature they could easily implement alongside better colourblind accessibility functions.

The thing is, Square's statement is basically "that sounds too hard and looks like a big headache, I ain't doing it".
Considering they won't hire two extra guys to help with class balance or saddle a couple of interns to adjust some hats, I believe them.

The only smart response is to turn around and just use stuff at your own discretion, including streamers and shills.
But hardline anti-mod people and trolls finally have an angle of attack and won't let go.

Interesting times ahead.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

Square Enix doesn't need to amend any list, determine what is/isn't allowed, create additional tools to add any more bedazzling to your character, ect.

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well i guess you better start arguing with yoshi p then because it seems thats the path they intend to take.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

FFXIV, is a beautiful game, it's content has been watered down so much that any content is done without too much effort, yet people keep going on and on about wanting them.

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I think that is more a problem with the content, and not people using a parser or a buff tracker.

Telling SE to hire people for a non-issue while they refuse to hire people for actual issues the game has suffered from for years.

This will go well.

To those who are trying to argue if 3rd party tools are right or wrong, or if they should it shouldn't be used, I already said this thread is not about that. There are plenty of other threads in which you can debate that all day long.

Long story short, right now, we have a problem. The problem is that 3rd party tools use has been publicly rampant for a short while, and the blatant use of a few of them has forced the Devs' hands. There are only 3 possible solutions to this problem:

1: Double down on the no 3rd party tools stance and bring a heavy, but fair hand down upon everyone who uses them. I see this as the wrong approach as it will alienate a large portion of the player base. This is also coupled with the fact that the game is lacking in certain aspects when it comes to usability. This stance would stagnate growth of the game's maturity from a design stance.

2: Sanction 3rd party tools usage and stop worrying about it. I see this as an equally wrong approach, as it would lead to a bad situation all around. I don't need to mention examples for people to know what I'm talking about.

3: A progressive approach along the lines that I outlined above. This allows SE to evolve the game's engines using the mod devs as inspiration. Many of those devs aren't looking for financial reward, fame, or even recognition. Many just want to improve the game. Alongside that, it allows SE the ability to then bring an extremely firm hand against the exploitative mods with much less chance of community backlash. They then have the ability to say "we already go this far for you guys... Cheating is not going to be tolerated under any circumstances" with no chance for any valid argument from the opposition. These are the reasons I made my proposal. I see it as the best path forward for the game on multiple aspects.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

3: A progressive approach along the lines that I outlined above. This allows SE to evolve the game's engines using the mod devs as inspiration. Many of those devs aren't looking for financial reward, fame, or even recognition. Many just want to improve the game. Alongside that, it allows SE the ability to then bring an extremely firm hand against the exploitative mods with much less chance of community backlash. They then have the ability to say "we already go this far for you guys... Cheating is not going to be tolerated under any circumstances" with no chance for any valid argument from the opposition. These are the reasons I made my proposal. I see it as the best path forward for the game on multiple aspects.

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It should be this, the middle-ground, imo. To go to the extremes and completely allow or deny mods would be silly, but if SE approved certain mods or created their own that would be a fair compromise.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

ToS is pretty simple to understand, don't use outside programs, addons or tools.

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Gonna respectfully disagree on that point, especially when Yoshida himself was referring to things like calculators, excel spreadsheets, and an MMO mouse as able to be interpreted as a 3rd party tool. Even if it was meant to be a little hyperbolic it still shows how far you can take the whole idea of what a 3rd party tool is.

Forgive me for asking but after seeing nearly three full pages of various threads about addons, I have to ask: Is this really that much of a big deal? I mean I am serious here. I want to know if this is really important. I don't use addons myself but I also don't do the really high end content. Are these addons really important for clearing high end content? Is it possible to clear high end content without them? If the answers to these last two questions are yes and no, respectively, then perhaps the high end content has been tuned too high?

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Forgive me for asking but after seeing nearly three full pages of various threads about addons, I have to ask: Is this really that much of a big deal? I mean I am serious here. I want to know if this is really important. I don't use addons myself but I also don't do the really high end content. Are these addons really important for clearing high end content? Is it possible to clear high end content without them? If the answers to these last two questions are yes and no, respectively, then perhaps the high end content has been tuned too high?

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Addons are not needed for high end content.

Very few people use any addons that actually make it easier. Many use QoL and parsing addons, however. The main QoL plugin has 795k downloads.

Some people are mad about the world first race but fail to realize that the addons that do make it easier, need to be programmed first to know what the strat for the fight is. Therefore, they cannot be used for world first.

Really this whole bout of drama isn't that big a deal since all they did was ban a few streamers (for 10 days) who were being super blatant about it. Now if they start trying to implement an anti-cheat or going after your average joe, then it'll be a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Some people are mad about the world first race but fail to realize that the addons that do make it easier, need to be programmed first to know what the strat for the fight is. Therefore, they cannot be used for world first.

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The world's first clear did have automated callouts in it.

All they need to do is see the mechanic a single time, and then make the network log available to their 9th/10th man and have them extract ability IDs to configure triggers with. Cactbot takes time to update because it's 1.) often programmed by people who don't do the fight and rely on consulting people who do and 2.) uses more complex methods to read and solve compound mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Forgive me for asking but after seeing nearly three full pages of various threads about addons, I have to ask: Is this really that much of a big deal? I mean I am serious here. I want to know if this is really important. I don't use addons myself but I also don't do the really high end content. Are these addons really important for clearing high end content? Is it possible to clear high end content without them? If the answers to these last two questions are yes and no, respectively, then perhaps the high end content has been tuned too high?

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It's unlikely that DSR would exist today in its current form had ACT never existed, but that doesn't mean the content requires addons. It's possible to benefit from the culture / knowledge that exists because of addons without directly using them yourself. Simply put, the game never would have been pushed to the extremes that it has if people couldn't measure and analyze stuff.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The world's first clear did have automated callouts in it.

All they need to do is see the mechanic a single time, and then make the network log available to their 9th/10th man and have them extract ability IDs to configure triggers with. Cactbot takes time to update because it's 1.) often programmed by people who don't do the fight and rely on consulting people who do and 2.) uses more complex methods to read and solve compound mechanics.

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That's pretty disappointing to be honest. I'd say that's a pretty cut and dry case of cheating. No bueno.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

Square Enix doesn't need to amend any list, determine what is/isn't allowed, create additional tools to add any more bedazzling to your character, ect.

ToS is pretty simple to understand, don't use outside programs, addons or tools.

SE has made it's stance pretty clear, with the recent bans of people who blatantly use these things, during streaming, or video creation, that the use is against ToS.

FFXIV, is a beautiful game, it's content has been watered down so much that any content is done without too much effort, yet people keep going on and on about wanting them.

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While I agree that 3rd party tools that give in game advantages during competitive content or serves to ostracize certain players from content are sketchy , there are some simple QoL things that some of the addons I've read about do that should have been in the game years ago, such as moving furniture freely along the Z-axis when decorating, saving and exporting chat logs, or combining your main 1-2-3 class combo into a single button (which is something PvP already does.)

YoshiP was exactly right when he admitted FFXIV and SE has been failing the player base in this regard, it's a service issue that they need to improve on at some point rather than making the spaghetti code excuse.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's unlikely that DSR would exist today in its current form had ACT never existed, but that doesn't mean the content requires addons. It's possible to benefit from the culture / knowledge that exists because of addons without directly using them yourself. Simply put, the game never would have been pushed to the extremes that it has if people couldn't measure and analyze stuff.

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I do and and always will disagree with that. Been around numerous communities in more and less competitive game and I think attributing the fact we have any advanced knowledge to ACT is disingenuous at best and insulting ar worst. Every game, every community will eventually have people dedicated enough to work out things like damage mechanic, stat correlation. I've seen it in games that are much less open about their data compared to FFXIV. Hell the ACT exists because someone was able to access the data and make a tool that shows it in more digestible manner.
Did the tool speed up the progress. Yeah. Would the progress never be made without it? I don't think so.

Problem is that if SE made a list of allowed 3rd party tools, it's never ending work. The tools aren't static, they're constantly being updated and each update would mean that SE has to spend time re-checking it to ensure that it is ok. And then you could get the cases of someone taking an allowed mod and further adding functions to it like call-outs and then claim they are using an allowed mod.

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Originally Posted by Banggugyangu

The recent drama surrounding 3rd party tools has been a raging forest fire the past few days, as everyone knows. This thread is not about discussion of whether or not said 3rd party tools are good or bad. There are enough of those. Rather, I'm creating this thread in order to put forth my proposal for what I feel would be the best approach in solving the problem as best as possible.

My proposed solution would be 3-fold:
1st: For an internal team to determine which of the 3rd party tools add beneficial functionality to enhance the game, then implement those into the core game. Yoshi-P has already stated that they have plans to take this approach, so part 1 covered, I suppose.

2nd: Create a "workshop" of sorts for aesthetic modifications that then become sanctioned. These aesthetic modifications could function exactly the same as they do currently: Client-side only. Anyone that claims that model swaps, UI retexturing, etc.. is detrimental to the game, IMO, is simply incorrect. When these types of modifications are client-side only, whether someone has them or not really affects no one outside of those who use them. On the other hand, for some players, these types of mods become the life-blood of the game. Having a sanctioned workshop for such mods allows for these types of mods to exist, but before being usable they are vetted to ensure that they don't allow for any type of game-breaking behavior.

3: Officially sanction GShade/ReShade or implement a filtering engine into the game.

I love the game. I don't need any modifications. I do feel that there are certain aspects that are lacking in functionality or usability. It will inevitably and understandably take a while for SE to implement these functionalities. Unfortunately, I don't see this drama going away in the near future. I'm just hoping that the fires start to burn out soon, and the community can return to normal.

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Or... or, just hear me out.

Play the game as it is.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Or... or, just hear me out.

Play the game as it is.

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Even that isnt possible anymore. That would require a massive change in the whole community.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Even that isnt possible anymore. That would require a massive change in the whole community.

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I know it'll be tough for some people, but we can make it through this and play this video game!

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Telling SE to hire people for a non-issue while they refuse to hire people for actual issues the game has suffered from for years.

This will go well.

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How is it a 'non-issue' when we've seen an established trend for the development team to change and add things in order to increase the number of quality of life features that players have access to?

I say this as someone who loathes the use of mods. I don't blame people for making use of them, I simply think they make a lot of people far too complacent. As someone who argued endlessly for more customisation features for player characters over the years - particularly for male characters - it rubbed me the wrong way when players who heavily modded their character tried to tell me to do the same or proposed that resources didn't need to be used because mods solved the problems I had with the lack of short, masculine hairstyles and muscle definition.

I know we're now getting an update to the quality of player character models, of course - but my example still holds weight, I hope.

There's also arguably a responsibility for companies to be flexible enough to adapt to consumer trends. They certainly don't appear to have any issue doing it when it comes to certain other angles...

I think this Dumpster Fire can continue for a few Weeks more, since it clearly shows the true nature of the award winning best MMO Community in all its Glory.

TBH i think even if all of these third party UI adjustments were native, people would still go out and use additonal third party UI adjustments, they would always find something they want different. No matter what the devs do, for some it will never be enough because the type of customisation that the people who use these want, is impossible for the devs to fully provide for.

Themes is a prime example of this. They added white theme, they added classic blue, but there are people who wanted purple, or minimilistic or spongebob squarepants colours... essentially its a viscious circle.

That said, i do think its good the devs acknowledge they need to improve the UI but i think they need to provide an engine for people to suggest things to add. But i think this is something that is sorely needed regardless. A generic give your feedback on the forum is fine, but it doesnt solve the issue of it being a chaotic unorganised mess.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I think this Dumpster Fire can continue for a few Weeks more, since it clearly shows the true nature of the award winning best MMO Community in all its Glory.

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That it has its bad apples in there? We all knew it was there just like add-ons were. We just chose to be quiet about it. Ultimately we all screwed up here.

If streamers followed the unspoken rule we wouldn't be here.
If 5chan brigade didn't smell blood in the water we wouldn't be here.
If SE did not release the "letter" regarding the 3rd party tools we wouldn't be here.
If some JP players weren't butthurt about losing World First we wouldn't be here.
If Neverend didn't have automated call outs clear to hear and see on the stream we wouldn't be here.

And it goes on.

You entirely missed the point of this whole thread... The problem right now isn't the existence of 3rd party tools or the terms of service. As many have already said, the terms of service is very cut and dry. Mods are going to exist regardless of what the Dev team's stance is. What isn't cut and dry is the actions taken against those who have chosen to use 3rd party tools. Only when it becomes as egregious as it has recently do we see the waves of banning for them like the last few days. All of this isn't the problem. If SE decided to ban with no prejudice anyone who uses anything at all, that's fine. I'll still play the game and I'll still follow the rules. That's a completely foolish mindset to take, though, and the Dev team knows that.

I'll pose this question, and to quote your own words, "hear me out..." If the game is great as is, why would you not want it to become even better? Why is it such a bad thing for SE to establish a team that evaluates the mods that are going to exist regardless, determine which functionalities the game can benefit from, and integrate those functionalities into the game itself? Why is such a bad thing for SE to implement a workshop of sorts for purely aesthetic mods that do nothing to affect gameplay and are purely client-side, meaning if you don't implement said mods from said sanctioned workshop, then you don't even see them? It was brought to my attention that a long time ago, Gshade and ReShade were already sanctioned by YoshiP, so no reason to further push that. I guess I just missed it when he spoke about it.

Again, the point of this whole thread is to present a solution to the problem, which is the division of the community. By SE determining which functionalities SHOULD be implemented and implementing them, and by creating a sanctioned resource for aesthetic mods, you create a situation where no longer are the benign 3rd party tools breaking any rules. By SE determining which are beneficial and which are not, you have them preventing allowing mods that lead to situations where gameplay design will be adjusted to accommodate them.

Now, if you're of the stance that aesthetic mods affect you... GTFO... There is no legitimate argument to that whatsoever... If you're going to try to throw the UI mods that give extra information that YoshiP was referencing in the post about this recently, those aren't purely aesthetic, so they don't fall under this category.

Gshade has a definate effect though. If you use it, you are happier while playing and able to play for longer.

Those without it are forced to stare at a bland lifeless screen that reminds them that all life will fade to a colorless state of depression.

Gshade is probably one of the most OP mods in the game.

Sooner or later, if this whole situation gets more out of hand then SE will take drastic action by going for the actual mod/plugin devs, people have gotten way too comfortable and since some streamers got caught, people are blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

People are trying to rebel hoping it could change SE and Yoshi's stance but they are only making it worse for everyone.

"Don't show, Don't Tell" how is it so hard for people to understanding the "Fight Club" rule?

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

"Don't show, Don't Tell" how is it so hard for people to understanding the "Fight Club" rule?

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Honestly think this is part of the root of the current issues. All the times SE has given the "don't use 3rd party tools" they told us that they can't monitor user-side. But some streamers decided to both show and tell their 3rd party tools live to thousands of people online. Both having the cake and eating it too.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Honestly think this is part of the root of the current issues. All the times SE has given the "don't use 3rd party tools" they told us that they can't monitor user-side. But some streamers decided to both show and tell their 3rd party tools live to thousands of people online. Both having the cake and eating it too.

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Irrelevant argument. Just because streamers have done this does not make the ToS & the enforcement thereof immune to criticism. You do not need to defend the ToS, it is not your child.

Mod users fall under 3 categories:

1: People who want to cheat for whatever reason. (Their reason isn't important.) Cheating is wrong. Anything that makes the content in the game easier to complete than was intended is a form of cheating. Before someone comes in and talks about over-gearing for content, that is intended. Despite that, SE gave tools to take on the content at the minimum level required to enter the content. Over-gearing isn't cheating. Tools that inform you of AoEs before the game does count as cheating. Tools that automate things count as cheating. There are other examples as well, I know the PvP cheaters have been a hot topic lately with the popularity of CC. These are black and white, right vs wrong. Don't cheat in multiplayer games. Period.

2: People who feel that there are aspects of the game that are lacking in functionality. This is a very broad range of people. This could be something as simple as "The game doesn't have chat bubbles for player text, but it does for NPC text. It would be cool if we could have chat bubbles for everything." to as complex as "The UI will show buff and debuff timers when I target a player, so it tells me that information already, but the party list doesn't display it. It's detrimental to have to target people individually to see this information, so let's put it on the party list." This category is the definition of a gray area. There are things that some people feel are lacking which would reduce the difficulty to clear content. These things are typically things that provide information that doesn't already exist in the game in some form or another. I don't want those in the game, personally. I feel that this then creates a situation where the devs will have to adjust their design philosophy to accommodate their existence, and that's a situation I want to avoid. Other things, like the 2 direct examples I gave in this section, are things that either provide personalization options or provide a better means of displaying information that is already present and provided to the player. Those are tweaks that don't affect the design philosophy in any way, and simply improve the quality of life for the players.

Second half in next post due to length...

2a: A subset of group 2 is the player that, due to disability, needs assistance to be able to perceive the information given. The most obvious is people who suffer from colorblindness, but there are others. This is an accessibility problem. Mr. Happy spoke out yesterday about this, as he is one of those people. His point is valid. The existing options are deficient. Accessibility options need a second pass and improvement. I'm not personally one of this subset, but I have perused the options available, and it feels inadequate to my ignorant perception. I don't know what SE's approach was when designing the accessibility options was, but using the colorblind correction tools as an example of what I would suggest: I would hope they bring in someone with each type of colorblindness, present them with P2, P3, and Endsinger Extreme, and work with them until they create filters that do the best job possible for each type of colorblindness. (I use P2 and P3 as they have 2 very polarizing aesthetics, and ESEX has a side-issue that may or may not af) Alongside this, the raid design team needs to learn from P3. When designing a raid, having an orange boss with orange adds, orange AoE markers, an orange skybox, and an orange platform may be something that one should take a second look at.

Oof... so long it has to be 3 posts....

3: People who want to create graphical assets to use on their own client. These are your model creators, UI texture designers. This falls under "User generated content". This is stuff that is totally benign. It doesn't change anything about gameplay whatsoever. It is an aesthetic change and nothing more. Whether you share their passion or not, user generated content becomes the life-blood of a game for MANY people. Look at Counter Strike and the hugely popular and successful store. This was the purpose of the workshop suggestion. I don't personally want a "store" where people sell their models/textures, but I would love for a "workshop" where they can share them. Once SE vets the submissions to confirm that they don't exploit anything to affect gameplay, the workshop then provides a manner of downloading and replacing your desired texture on ONLY your client. I stress this point for 2 reasons: 1, some people want the SE assets only, and that's OK. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play the game exactly how SE implements it. Just because you want your moogle staff to have bruises and blood all over the moogle on top doesn't mean I want it to. The 2nd reason opens the door for those who wish to use the adult assets for their own pleasure. While I don't understand this part, myself, I know that it's a big part of the game for many players. Obviously this should be behind some enforceable age-gate, but giving the option for players to use them that desire to when they are following the other parts of the ToS that apply to gameplay regarding the accompanying activities just prevents alienating them. TL:DR this section: I'm not suggesting a store. I'm not suggesting SE officially implement these user generated assets. I'm simply suggesting a sanctioned workshop that is moderated by SE for this type of user generated content. That puts these types of mods into a new category of "Don't want? Don't Use." where everyone can be happy.