Can we point out to how bad it is that SE bends the knee to chan brigades?

Topic. The precedence it sets is a very bad one. It shows how bad SE deals with reports and customer relations in general.

"Bends the knee?" This isn't Game of Thrones.

No, it wouldn't set a precedent for anything other than enforcing their TOS. If they action someone, it will be for receiving reports that a rule was broken, investigating and seeing the rule was broken, and following a set procedure to deal with it (which may include suspending, banning, or giving a warning. However, they may not even do that, "brigade" or no based on the severity of the incident, letting it go and then waiting to see if it happens again).

Some people on the official forums and Reddit would get mad about anything but the last, but just like you think "It shows how bad SE deals with reports and customer relations," people on the official forums and Reddit stomping their feet about something and then actually doing something about it would be such a small fraction of players that they're basically irrelevant. Every developer knows that a certain number of players will do the virtual equivalent of the Vauthry fist pound and make empty threats, which is the customer equivalent of being "bad relations," and will summarily ignore them. It's no different than the snide customer at a supermarket or the citizens who go to government meetings and complain about anything and everything that the reasonable, average citizen doesn't care about.

That said, they may reconsider for other reasons, but given the ludicrous and frankly hilariously overblown response when they updated TOS, it seems at least a little unlikely because they were probably expecting this reaction.

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Originally Posted by Folsom

No, it wouldn't set a precedent for anything other than enforcing their TOS

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Then explain why they don't go after all the various obvious fate, eureka, crafting, housing etc etc bots that have been reported over the years?

Spoiler: It's likely because they weren't reported in the sort of numbers that 5ch are throwing.

It raises two issues here:

A) And this is a big one. A 'crime' should be handled accordingly to it's severity. Not by how many people are shouting and screaming for 'justice'.

B)The punishment seems pretty excessive, not only to the streamer themselves, but the rest of their DSR team that's now basically had their progression reset or put on pause for 10 days and even the community that's following their progress.

Square Enix aren't bending the knee to anyone as it was always against the terms of service. The problem is that the game has no client-side protections to detect or prevent the use of third party tools. The only way in which Square Enix will know that you're using these tools is by streaming it or talking about it and thus that makes you an easy target to get reported.

All this situation encourages is for people to not stream or try to hide their third party tool usage. Certain more adult areas of the modding community already do this in order to stay out of Square Enix's radar but that fundamentally doesn't solve the problem. This is a multi-platform game and by not taking ownership of the modding situation, Square Enix are actually failing the entire player base.

This hole fiasco (and reactions) reminds me of the typical gacha gaming community you can find in Reddit. XD

As bad as the brigading is, the one that left the window open was Yoshi-P himself. Now the situation forces them to take action or risk being perceived as incompetent/liars.

Maybe the flagging system prioritizes quantity, and things will be reversed after review.
Or maybe they'll be pushed into scorched earth against mods.
Or, and maybe I'm overly optimistic, we'll return to status quo after this blows over.

Someone points at someone else using 3rd party tools and SE bans them because they are using 3rd party tools. I see no issue with that.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Someone points at someone else using 3rd party tools and SE bans them because they are using 3rd party tools. I see no issue with that.

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Problem with that that so many use third party stuff.
Raiders use parsers.
Home decorators use mods to float furniture or w/e
RPers use chat bubble mods etc.

This mass reporting is equivalent to snitching on somebody for smoking pot.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

This mass reporting is equivalent to snitching on somebody for smoking pot.

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this is a jp game, smoking pot will land you in jail

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Problem with that that so many use third party stuff.
Raiders use parsers.
Home decorators use mods to float furniture or w/e
RPers use chat bubble mods etc.

This mass reporting is equivalent to snitching on somebody for smoking pot.

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We log in, we agree to the ToS for better or worse.

With that being said, SE needs to really step up their game in terms of UI design. One one hand they call themselves "a titan" yet operate like a smol indie company. That's the part that annoys me.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

this is a jp game, smoking pot will land you in jail

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Really? Good thing then that I smoke weed and not pot :D

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Someone points at someone else using 3rd party tools and SE bans them because they are using 3rd party tools. I see no issue with that.

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Lol, this just isn't the case though. Are you really that oblivious to all the complaints, threads and so forth everywhere complaining about how obvious bots and cheaters weren't getting banned despite being reported? Even if we ignore Eureka bots and so forth, remember the outrage over that BLM in Gordias with the 2 second GCD? They never got banned for that.

Someone pointing at someone else using 3rd party tools isn't going to get someone banned. There's over 10 years of evidence right here on these forums that document exactly that.

This is about it requiring mass reporting from 5ch to make it happen. No matter which side of the camp you're on with ToS breaking mods. This is wrong.

If someone is obviously cheating, it should probably be addressed fairly, irrespective of if they get 2 reports or 200.

The number of reports shouldn't decide the severity of the punishment. That's just wrong and there's a very big reason why reality doesn't work like this.

It's about time they correct their mistake, yes. Wagging a finger isn't as effective. And with the increase of popularity and people pushing the envelope more and more it's high time they took action.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

Topic. The precedence it sets is a very bad one. It shows how bad SE deals with reports and customer relations in general.

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Completely incorrect. Regardless of the # of people that make a report someone from SE reviews the information before making a final decision on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

We log in, we agree to the ToS for better or worse

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Per EU Court of Justice ruling EULAs and ToS are legally irrelevant. Too bad companies get away with them still because EU has to waste time with never ending anti-consumer practices of big fish like Apple.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Completely incorrect. Regardless of the # of people that make a report someone from SE reviews the information before making a final decision on the matter.

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Completely incorrect? It makes clear the reporting system actually is a voting system since SE only acted upon getting X number of reports without really thinking about the contents (or consequences of acting on them) of those reports.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

Topic. The precedence it sets is a very bad one. It shows how bad SE deals with reports and customer relations in general.

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it won't matter if ToS weren't broken.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

Completely incorrect? It makes clear the reporting system actually is a voting system since SE only acted upon getting X number of reports without really thinking about the contents (or consequences of acting on them) of those reports.

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prove it.

Gotta say current events really pulled out the trolls on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Per EU Court of Justice ruling EULAs and ToS are legally irrelevant. Too bad companies get away with them still because EU has to waste time with never ending anti-consumer practices of big fish like Apple.

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Good. Authority should always be questioned, even if it is authority you agree with sometimes or often.

What is a "chan brigade"?

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Problem with that that so many use third party stuff.
Raiders use parsers.
Home decorators use mods to float furniture or w/e
RPers use chat bubble mods etc.

This mass reporting is equivalent to snitching on somebody for smoking pot.

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Then don't "smoke pot" on public TV with 1,000s of people watching, knowing full well it's against the law.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Per EU Court of Justice ruling EULAs and ToS are legally irrelevant. Too bad companies get away with them still because EU has to waste time with never ending anti-consumer practices of big fish like Apple.

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There is nothing illegal about a company enforcing their own rules as long as their rules aren't themselves breaking any laws.

Feel free to challenge in some court with "omgz I got banned for breaking the rulez! Punish them for me EU! Make them reverse it!"

They just did what they said they would do. People can't say they never were warned. They asked players to stop using those things, yet they said "well, Yoshi-P is okay with that, is just a corporate thing, they will never enforced". Is some sort of demonstration that they can actually do it.

The ban was because a bunch of people reported a streamer. Even if that cleary an childist abuse and that people just wanted that, a GM can't ignore the fact that he was using third party tools. that can set an even more dangerous precedent, like "this GM allows the use of third party tools, so it should fine for everyone", which contradicts the ToS. It seems no one thinks that ignore the report of people using not allowed software is more dangerous in the long term, as it will encourage the use, a thing that SE doesn't want.

They only enforce it en masse when a loud enough chunk of the Japanese playerbase gets fired up about it.

What's entertaining me this week is the self-appointed Gladys Kravitzes in the NA forums, squawking "ABNER, ABNER! Someone is using a DIRTY PLUGIN to fix a controller bug! It's BREAKING THE LAW! Call the police!"

You couldn't pay me to give a crap about plugins like that, and Yoshi isn't going to sleep with you guys.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

They just did what they said they would do. People can't say they never were warned. They asked players to stop using those things, yet they said "well, Yoshi-P is okay with that, is just a corporate thing, they will never enforced". Is some sort of demonstration that they can actually do it.

The ban was because a bunch of people reported a streamer. Even if that cleary an childist abuse and that people just wanted that, a GM can't ignore the fact that he was using third party tools. that can set an even more dangerous precedent, like "this GM allows the use of third party tools, so it should fine for everyone", which contradicts the ToS. It seems no one thinks that ignore the report of people using not allowed software is more dangerous in the long term, as it will encourage the use, a thing that SE doesn't want.

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This is ultimately the thing I don't think newbies understand to the game. The policy really hasn't changed from day 1. It has ALWAYS always been "Don't do it, and we won't really actively look for it... but if you get reported and we find you were doing X, we gotta punish you."

It's very much the same vibe you'd get from a dad saying "I'm not disappointed you did the thing. I'm disappointed you got caught."

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

They only enforce it en masse when a loud enough chunk of the Japanese playerbase gets fired up about it.

What's entertaining me this week is the self-appointed Gladys Kravitzes in the NA forums, squawking "ABNER, ABNER! Someone is using a DIRTY PLUGIN to fix a controller bug! It's BREAKING THE LAW! Call the police!"

You couldn't pay me to give a crap about plugins like that, and Yoshi isn't going to sleep with you guys.

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Most of these people claim the ToS is vague or bad or whatever and haven't even bothered to actually read it.

The WF salt has been delicious. From people who lost or those that will never even enter the duty.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Lol, this just isn't the case though. Are you really that oblivious to all the complaints, threads and so forth everywhere complaining about how obvious bots and cheaters weren't getting banned despite being reported? Even if we ignore Eureka bots and so forth, remember the outrage over that BLM in Gordias with the 2 second GCD? They never got banned for that.

Someone pointing at someone else using 3rd party tools isn't going to get someone banned. There's over 10 years of evidence right here on these forums that document exactly that.

This is about it requiring mass reporting from 5ch to make it happen. No matter which side of the camp you're on with ToS breaking mods. This is wrong.

If someone is obviously cheating, it should probably be addressed fairly, irrespective of if they get 2 reports or 200.

The number of reports shouldn't decide the severity of the punishment. That's just wrong and there's a very big reason why reality doesn't work like this.

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There is streamer ViolentDestruction who reported a cheater multiple times on stream. PVP using speed hack and anti crowd control something, uncertain how this stuffs work. Took one week if am remembering correctly for any action to be taken. They were top rank for almost entire time. Continued to return after being reported with name change every time. Likely knew they were being reported by watching stream.

Also know that stock GM message changes upon certain report threshold. Was playing with the friends doing alliance raid. Someone was AFK then became most aggressive when called out. Of course we report them because tis not okay. Some friends received the standard "We are sorry this has occurred" stock message while other friends who reported the person last got different "We have received enough to begin investigation" message.

What is "bend the knee"?

Sounds like something someone would say in a bad television show about renaissance fairs

SE has always bent the knee to the unhinged toxic elitists, it is nothing new unfortunately, breaking the rules is wrong, but so are hate mobs.
Years ago 5ch found out someone on their data center used mods, they harassed them for months and months, what do you think SE did? Permanently banned the modder and left the harassers alone to continue playing janitors.

There seems to have been an understanding between SE and players/streamers regarding third party stuff. Now that understanding has been shattered due to people with malicious intent. SE has to take action on the matter regardless of the intentions of those bringing it up, because if they don't do something, it opens up the possibility for even more third party applications and mods being used and abused willy nilly.

Only fault I see in SE is that they left the topic ambiguous, hoping they wouldn't need to address it further as long as everyone played fair. But now it's biting them right in the ass.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

Topic. The precedence it sets is a very bad one. It shows how bad SE deals with reports and customer relations in general.

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it's already been a precedent

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

this is a jp game, smoking pot will land you in jail

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They cant prove you were actually smoking pot.
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...b_Cauldron.png

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

it's already been a precedent

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Hotdang, im only halfway through but that is seriously beyond effed up! I cant say this improves anything.... X-x but would explain certain accounts coming out of the woodworks atm on this forum defending current events.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What's entertaining me this week is the self-appointed Gladys Kravitzes in the NA forums, squawking "ABNER, ABNER! Someone is using a DIRTY PLUGIN to fix a controller bug! It's BREAKING THE LAW! Call the police!"

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Maybe we should start mass-reporting all the Limsa bards who play copyrighted music in blatant violation of the ToS, since the ToS Police are all hot-and-bothered about those dirty, dirty scofflaws breaking the rules.

(Cue goalpost-moving from the self-appointed ToS Police about how "that's totally different" in three...two...one...)

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

It seems no one thinks that ignore the report of people using not allowed software is more dangerous in the long term, as it will encourage the use, a thing that SE doesn't want.

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Yes, how terrible it is that people might use...(checks notes)...a mod that adds chat bubbles to the game? Eh, that's what it says here. Clearly chat bubble mods, GShade, and BDTH will bring about the Eighth Umbral Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

Maybe we should start mass-reporting all the Limsa bards who play copyrighted music in blatant violation of the ToS, since the ToS Police are all hot-and-bothered about those dirty, dirty scofflaws breaking the rules.

(Cue goalpost-moving from the self-appointed ToS Police about how "that's totally different" in three...two...one...)

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go ahead.
who's stopping you?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Then explain why they don't go after all the various obvious fate, eureka, crafting, housing etc etc bots that have been reported over the years?

Spoiler: It's likely because they weren't reported in the sort of numbers that 5ch are throwing.

It raises two issues here:

A) And this is a big one. A 'crime' should be handled accordingly to it's severity. Not by how many people are shouting and screaming for 'justice'.

B)The punishment seems pretty excessive, not only to the streamer themselves, but the rest of their DSR team that's now basically had their progression reset or put on pause for 10 days and even the community that's following their progress.

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The Lottery system and way to transfer FC's to others has changed to an insane degree in 6.1, some issues but those are fixed next week.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Then explain why they don't go after all the various obvious fate, eureka, crafting, housing etc etc bots that have been reported over the years?

Spoiler: <snip>

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Well, that, and the bots add to their active accounts numbers to better sell their "over 12 million players" hype...

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

Hotdang, im only halfway through but that is seriously beyond effed up! I cant say this improves anything.... X-x but would explain certain accounts coming out of the woodworks atm on this forum defending current events.

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It's the reason why I'm so angry at this. I hope people realize that most of us making a noise are concerned with WITCH HUNTS over personal mods that affect no one else. People are not upset that mods are against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

It's the reason why I'm so angry at this. I hope people realize that most of us making a noise are concerned with WITCH HUNTS over personal mods that affect no one else. People are not upset that mods are against the ToS.

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I agree. It is beyond rediculous. I think I pointed out some time ago in another thread that it would be the community that would be the death of the game. And these things make it come true.

One thing to keep in mind is that the GMs are egregiously out-of-touch with the needs of the playerbase, even compared to the devs themselves. They're likely responding in a borderline robotic fashion to mass reporting, independent of any context.

This is not a defense of them- quite the opposite- but it's not so much "bending the knee" as much as it is them effectively functioning on autopilot because they don't know how to parse (heh) so many reports.

Ban them all.
Let the Pluginquisition, Begin!