Toxicon Adjustment

I know it’s been said before but hey, if more people are suggesting it, maybe it’ll get traction.

I’d LOVE to see an oGCD toxicon. That one change would make the job feel so much more satisfying to play. I like Sage a lot… but healers in general have such simple DPS rotations that adding in that little bit would be a breath of fresh air. It would also make the skill a true DPS recovery skill for using your shield.

Right now you loose a lot for using the shield. It’s MP expensive, you loose the 330 damage potency, AND you loose the 170 healing potency from Kardion. An oGCD toxicon would remove the “sting” from building addersting and make building and spending it a core part of the job instead of an afterthought.

Toxicon is meant to act as a Ruin II equivalent, so it being oGCD would make it closer to Energy Drain. If that happened, it would require a potency adjustment not only for Toxicon, but also Energy Drain. The reason Toxicon works as is, is because it's an extra resource to build, and isn't shared with the Addersgall stacks. Otherwise, it would just be a carbon copy of Aetherflow.

I think the problem with it for me is that it feels like it is trying to be a combination two different things and not doing a good job at any of them.

It isn’t a good Ruin II. Ruin II is meant to help mitigate damage loss if you have to move by being an on-demand instant spammable with slightly reduced potency. In order to use Toxicon, you first have to have used your Shield (AND have had it broke). Justifying Shield is hard. It’s more expensive to use than the Scholar shield (because you loose the 170 heal from Kardion as part of the opportunity cost), and you have lots of oGCD options for healing instead. In fact, due to Sage cast mechanics, a forced movement stage is the best time to use the Shield, so you probably won’t have Toxicon available when you need it. If you can even cast Toxicon, you have already lost more than you would loose by casting a Ruin II.

So it is a Ruin II that required you to have already sacrificed 330 Damage and 170 Healing potency to even cast on a per-cast basis. That’s such a huge opportunity cost that I find it hard to believe that it is a good Ruin II replacement in its current form. In order to act as a reasonable Ruin II replacement, Addersting would have to be gained in another, less costly, way. Like for example if using a stack of Addersgall gave you a stack of Addersting.

It’s definitely not an Energy Drain replacement. Energy Drain is an Aetherflow dump. It is extremely inefficient compared to anything else that Aetherflow can do… but if you can play well enough to use no GCD healing and less than 3 Aetherflow heals in 60 seconds you get a small DPS reward. Toxicon is nothing like this and shouldn’t try to be. If Toxicon became an oGCD skill it still wouldn’t be analogous to Energy Drain.

The last thing it could be, and I think it would fit this role best, is as a DPS recovery like Afflatus Misery. If Toxicon were made into an oGCD skill, it would immediately fill this role. Sage wouldn’t need a Ruin II analog because your forced movement skill would be your Shield. You would then cast Toxicon sometime later to re-coup the lost damage from not having a spammable attack spell you can use while moving. It would also create another playstyle difference between Sage and Scholar, which is a good thing.

Right now, it feels like it wants to be an Afflatus Misery, but unlike Afflatus which takes 3 GCD heals to enable, 1 to cast, and do the damage of 4 Glares (thus giving you the same damage as if you spent all 4 on Glare) it doesn’t recoup any lost DPS GCDs. It gives you a single charge of Ruin II. A charge that costs more to gain than you get out of it.

I think the solution isn't to make Toxikon oGCD - it's to make Phlegma oGCD and use Toxikon to decrease its cooldown.
Building stacks of addersting and using Toxikon would still benefit towards DPS but in a more roundabout way that rewards using the shields every so often so you can squeeze in some extra Phlegma casts on the oGCD for more DPS potency and moving the 'lost' 170 potency Kardion heals down the road a little bit. With Phlegma currently being a 45s charge, each Toxikon cast could reduce that time by 15s, meaning that blowing all 3 stacks of sting nets one extra Phlegma. I'd also increase it to 3 charges and maybe reduce the potency to account for extra casts, give SGE a mini DPS rotation of Dosis GCD > Phlegma oGCD > Toxikon GCD > Phlegma oGCD > Toxikon GCD > Phlegma oGCD > Toxikon GCD - this'll complete the charge time allowing for > Phlegma oGCD. 8 ability long burst phase (9 if you wanna end it with a Pneuma and just go nuts) to do under the effect of a party raid buff to play into the DPS feel of the class, and incentivise getting more sting stacks during the downtime between bursts so that you can burst again when the raid buffs come back around because it'll all balance out eventually. And the beauty is that it'd work on trash AOE pulls as well as single-target applications. Only difference you'd have to do is open with Dyskrasia instead of Dosis and now it's a fully AOE burst.

The idea behind Toxicon seems to simply be a movement tool for when you don't have time to slidecast wherever you need to be and can't be in range for Phlegma. You're supposed to plan around the limited supply of 3 stacks and whatever extra stacks you can gain during downtime where casting GCD shields doesn't cost you dps.


I don't necessarily see an issue with having to plan your movement throughout a fight. Sure, SCH always has access to Ruin 2 but since the changes to Broil's cast time it is always a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The idea behind Toxicon seems to simply be a movement tool for when you don't have time to slidecast wherever you need to be and can't be in range for Phlegma. You're supposed to plan around the limited supply of 3 stacks and whatever extra stacks you can gain during downtime where casting GCD shields doesn't cost you dps.


I don't necessarily see an issue with having to plan your movement throughout a fight. Sure, SCH always has access to Ruin 2 but since the changes to Broil's cast time it is always a dps loss.

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This is a good reason.

Toxicon being a oGCD, I can't imagine that without feeling something really weird about that. If we were to put Toxicon as an oGCD, this will lead to a bursting tool rather than a tool allowing you to get more mobility for a few second. Same goes for Phlegma this can keep your mobility while at melee range. Moving Toxicon oGCD mean Sage lose a lot in mobility. And the class seems quite fun like it is now, in my opinion, touching that is a really bad idea.

Discounting balance, I've always been advocating for oGCD Toxikon, if only for the fact that it'd be a great gameplay improvement. DPS to heal AND heal to DPS would finally make sense.

Plus it'd make for a fast paced and innovative combo, making greater use of a sage's core skill, eukrasia.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

This is a good reason.

Toxicon being a oGCD, I can't imagine that without feeling something really weird about that. If we were to put Toxicon as an oGCD, this will lead to a bursting tool rather than a tool allowing you to get more mobility for a few second. Same goes for Phlegma this can keep your mobility while at melee range. Moving Toxicon oGCD mean Sage lose a lot in mobility. And the class seems quite fun like it is now, in my opinion, touching that is a really bad idea.

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There's no real mobility loss since if it's dps neutral you'd rebuild it as soon as you're done moving, basically keeping a full stack at all times until the next burst window.

Have GCD toxicon which is a movement tool and an OGCD toxicon on a 15 second cooldown (some arbitrary number). Choose when you need movement tool toxicon and when you want your damage back for the shield.

Toxikon is a movement tool that Sage has 3 charges of. Any downtime will grant you additional stacks. It should not be an oGCD and is fine as is. Rhizomata could potentially grant 1 Addersting stack, but then Sage would have even more insane mobility.

It bamboozles me how everyone seems fine with dedicating an entire gauge mechanic to Ruin II considering how the community generally feels about the rest of healer design. It genuinely feels like I'm being punked or that I've looked into a parallel world where logic has flipped upside down. It's far more illogical to me than even the current direction of healing as a whole.

Toxikon is worse than stormblood lilies. There, I said it.

EDIT: accidentally double-posted.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Moving Toxicon oGCD mean Sage lose a lot in mobility. And the class seems quite fun like it is now, in my opinion, touching that is a really bad idea.

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Technically since EDiag is instant cast you could still have similar mobility by using Ediag to move, then refunding the potency lost via oGCD.

Not saying I like the idea at all for various reasons, but just mentioning that for the sake of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It bamboozles me how everyone seems fine with dedicating an entire gauge mechanic to Ruin II considering how the community generally feels about the rest of healer design. It genuinely feels like I'm being punked or that I've looked into a parallel world where logic has flipped upside down. It's far more illogical to me than even the current direction of healing as a whole.

Toxikon is worse than stormblood lilies. There, I said it.

EDIT: accidentally double-posted.

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Stormblood lilies genuinely made no sense. Using Cure II to unlock Divine Benison and also that ridiculous trait that had a very very small chance of reducing cooldowns. Toxikon will likely be expanded upon, but it's perfectly acceptable right now. It fulfills it's intended purpose as a movement tool on a limited resource. Toxikon, in fact does not have an entire job gauge dedicated to it. It has a half a job gauge dedicated to it...

Toxicon is a dps loss at the moment due to costing two GCDs to cast but only being worth one dosis. Either make it an OGCD so it is equal to one dosis in cost, or double the potency so its equal to two dosis in cost. As of now there's no reason to try and build addersting procs during a fight since you're better off using the nearly dozen other healing abilities sage has first rather than using your GCD shields.

We already had this shit solved with TBN, mostly, so why they got it wrong with toxicon I have no clue.

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

Stormblood lilies genuinely made no sense. Using Cure II to unlock Divine Benison and also that ridiculous trait that had a very very small chance of reducing cooldowns. Toxikon will likely be expanded upon, but it's perfectly acceptable right now. It fulfills it's intended purpose as a movement tool on a limited resource. Toxikon, in fact does not have an entire job gauge dedicated to it. It has a half a job gauge dedicated to it...

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I mean you're right about the lilies, I'm just being hyperbolic mostly. But if Ruin II doesn't deserve a job gauge, then Toxikon doesn't either. It's not a rewarding concept. It's an afterthought, much like how the stormblood lilies were. More effective, sure, but just because a mechanic is inoffensive doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It bamboozles me how everyone seems fine with dedicating an entire gauge mechanic to Ruin II considering how the community generally feels about the rest of healer design. It genuinely feels like I'm being punked or that I've looked into a parallel world where logic has flipped upside down. It's far more illogical to me than even the current direction of healing as a whole.

Toxikon is worse than stormblood lilies. There, I said it.

EDIT: accidentally double-posted.

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Well you're not alone, people saying it's fine as a weak alternative to Ruin II and as a spell that emphasizes how stale healer gameplay is also bamboozles me. It's supposed to have a unique interaction with your shield but instead you just use your heal during downtime with no regards to the effectiveness of said shield 99% of the time, and you just pump it out to rebuild addersting, which muddles the interaction to begin with. And visually, it literally takes the other half of Sage's identity gauge but it feels like such an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

Toxikon will likely be expanded upon

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I admire your optimism, please look forward to the two new healing buttons that SGE gets in 7.0 that will have 0 interaction with the rest of its kit.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

<An idea that would, ultimately, just straight up increase SGE's dps, even if by a slight and situational degree>.

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Okay, now... where is that dps going to come from? Balance, is, after all, a thing.

Also, why would you want E. Diagnosis spam to be a part of your damage budget, period?

Sage is already the healer with the greatest amount of healing doable before needing to sacrifice damage. Toxicon itself exists largely just to make up for the loss of Kardia on your most core "as needed" heal.

Addersting being limited to E. Diagnosis, moreover, is probably simply because removing the necessary shield break (thus allowing you to shield spam for Toxicons during downtime and between fights) would feel like shit and getting Toxicon procs from every shield to break on your shield AoEs would be broken. That procedure is what allows the devs to give Sage a bit of potency recovery without obliging degen gameplay. And that potency recovery, given the amount of free healing already available to Sage (far in excess of WHM until the 6.1 changes to Misery) is enough.

We do not need to make E. Diagnosis, a no-CD, spammable heal, cost a mere 30 offensive potency to cast

Edit:
I accidentally compared Toxicon I, instead of Toxicon III, against Dosis III. There would actually be 0 offensive potency cost of every consumed E. Diagnosis, if the OP were to have their way.
Every single E. Diagnosis, a no-CD spell, would work then work like a Lily heal into Misery, but more conveniently (more granularly).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We do not need to make E. Diagnosis, a no-CD, spammable heal, cost a mere 30 offensive potency to cast

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It's not even a 30 potency loss. Toxicon 2 has the exact same potency as Dosis 3 so if they made it an oGCD as it currently is you would be able to just get complete free movement with no cooldown and no dps loss, granted E. Diagnosis would still have to actually break.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's not even a 30 potency loss. Toxicon 2 has the exact same potency as Dosis 3 so if they made it an oGCD as it currently is you would be able to just get complete free movement with no cooldown and no dps loss, granted E. Diagnosis would still have to actually break.

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Oh, yep. So, (MP aside) free Euk. Diagnosis for days, with each successive break, to a max of 3 Toxicon stacks at a time, on the healer that already had the most healing before suffering damage loss...

I do not mind toxicon really since the main target it hits will be the same potency of a dosis which is a good mobile( figure skate animation is nice cool and nice in boss fights which I use it for never trash however.

Again I hate to pick on pepsi but a rework to it should be to restore the adder sting gauge to full with about a 1min cool down instead of eating mp up of spamming e diag.

If Toxicon was oGCD and SGE had 2-3 more DPS actions in its rotation, it's probably all I would play. As it stands now, a "DPS healer" it is not. I realize it's basically improbable that they'd add anything to the job's kit this expac, but a Toxicon rework would be nice. I'm not a fan of buttons you're never able to hit or buttons that are DPS losses to use, and I don't really think SGE needs a "Ruin II" equivalent. Ruin II already is a bad enough button, SGE does not need an entire half of its gauge built around it, especially if SGE can't even use Toxicon on demand. If SGE needs movement tools, give more charges to Icarus.

Yes Toxikon is basically Ruin II, but that's part of the problem. You have a large part of the jobs mechanics tied to a minor movement tool, yet that tool is somewhat necessary.
So...

More ways to generate Addersting, preferably ways that don't cost GCD heals. Perhaps Phlegma generates 1 Addersting every time it's used to form a sort of loose combo system.
New skill: Eukrasian Toxikon, potency changed to 450 and 75% less for remaining enemies. The rationale here is Toxikon is a dps neutral movement/weaving tool, but if you Eukrasia it, you spend your weave window for additional damage, like sticking an Energy Drain in there.

Having leveled SGE and now using it constantly the skill is useful when you need to move, but still attack.

I honestly wouldn’t mind it being oGCD as it would feel more fun.

Maybe there is also the consideration of the visuals: why/how could you be casting your next Dosis laser blast if your nouliths are currently hovering over the enemy? They can't be in two places at the same time... Perhaps an animation change is in order.

I wanted Toxicon to be an oGCD from the start, it just screams multitasking (like scholar's Energy Drain weaves).

Going over the entire concept of the nouliths, it seemed to me the perfect multitasking healer tool; classic sage is supposed to be an absolute master of all magic, and with being able to control 4 separate tools that can all attack or heal, it's strange that there is no animation for using only 1 or 2 nouliths at a time. Like, healing with 2 nouliths while attacking with the other 2. If they are meant to attack and heal at the same time, this would be a good visual indicator of their juggling both tasks across their 4 different magic conduits. And in the Endwalker trailer, it seemed that Alpinaud was able to heal Alisaie with his hands while his nouliths were doing all the attack work further away. If they showed sage animations with them manually controlling all 4 nouliths independent of each other for different tasks, splicing attack and heal animations together by directing 2 groups of nouliths in separate directions, that would drive home their magic master and intelligent aesthetic. And if that seems like a lot of extra animation work than usual, well yes, and they gave sages 3 or 4 different ways to sheate/unsheathe their weapons too.

Reworking Toxikon into an OGCD tool like in PVP can potentially address many of its current issues, but would still fail to address the fact that Dosis III is still cast upwards of 160 times per encounter. leaving it on the GCD at least takes away some of that for the time being if its issues can get worked out otherwise, but SGE needs more variation in its GCD library.

I really don't think that this would do much to add to the job. Might be interesting from a Kardia standpoint, but I feel like this would be the equivalent of being in a house on fire and using the kitchen sprayer on the fire.

There should be some more significant changes IMO.

Honestly I’m okay with sage’s DPS skills all being gcd. PvP Toxicon feels good to use in PvP but I don’t think it would translate super well. My idea: Toxicon 2 should deal 670 potency. That way it’s just barely damage positive, encourages shielding, and just overall isn’t awful. I’d also like to see Toxicon reduce the cooldown of phlegma by around 30 seconds. Shield your tanks through more stuff, you’re rewarded with more damage.

Bare in mind I also think sage is the second worst designed job in the game and needs a rework far more than any of the other healers except scholar. This would at least make sage better to play and more rewarding.

I'd rather shielding was encouraged because tanks actually needed it.

Even in Savage I almost never need to use a GCD shield on a tank. They have enough sustain and mitigation that Kardia, Haima, oGCD's and aoe heal are more than enough. Spamming GCD shields on tanks that are purely overheal to unlock more dps just makes no sense from a design perspective.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'd rather shielding was encouraged because tanks actually needed it.

Even in Savage I almost never need to use a GCD shield on a tank. They have enough sustain and mitigation that Kardia, Haima, oGCD's and aoe heal are more than enough. Spamming GCD shields on tanks that are purely overheal to unlock more dps just makes no sense from a design perspective.

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I agree, but that’s not super likely to happen.