Either enforce roles or remove them entirely

Because this matchmaking is hot garbage and I'm tired of getting these wacked out teams where one side is loaded with burst and the other side is a bunch of support classes that can't kill anything. Like what is my team of a brd, blm, pld, sge, ast supposed to do against a whm, sge, drg, sam, nin?????

If square wants this mode to work with no role enforcement then the concept of support/tank designs need to disappear.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because this matchmaking is hot garbage and I'm tired of getting these wacked out teams where one side is loaded with burst and the other side is a bunch of support classes that can't kill anything. Like what is my team of a brd, blm, pld, sge, ast supposed to do against a whm, sge, drg, sam, nin?????

If square wants this mode to work with no role enforcement then the concept of support/tank designs need to disappear.

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You should probably spend some time tinkering with all the jobs.
That match-up could go either way, and the first team has the advantage if anything.

won with everythign not being the meta before and often in streaks as well, hot headed melee dps that just insist on following my bard around while I shoot a focused target is fun... turn park him again... kill the other one some more.

Running off like that wont help your team, especially not when you are away from the crystal as well.

Roles are completely meaningless in PvP. You will have a easier time and less of a headache if you ignore the color each Job Symbol has, since every Job contributes differently to a Duel/CC/Frontline.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Like what is my team of a brd, blm, pld, sge, ast supposed to do against a whm, sge, drg, sam, nin?????

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Click on them and kill them. The enemy team has no tank, so their melees will have to take some heat when stepping up, creating kill opportunities, or leave the ranged to get dived and instantly forced out. Split fights across the map and don't stand in Skyshatter.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

You should probably spend some time tinkering with all the jobs.
That match-up could go either way, and the first team has the advantage if anything.

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Sorry but no, this match goes one way and one way only. Pure melee vs a bunch of casters its extremely easy to overwhelm them,

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Roles are completely meaningless in PvP. You will have a easier time and less of a headache if you ignore the color each Job Symbol has, since every Job contributes differently to a Duel/CC/Frontline.

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I felt this way when the mode was new, but its just blatantly false. Roles matter a lot and make a significant difference.

They copy overwatch (failed) pvp system yet they didn't even forced roles/team comp.

Losing and getting less xp/other stuff because matchmaking put you into 100% lost match is horrible
Like literally right now i am losing because it's tank x healer vs tank and 4 dps.

Thank you SE for destroying sam and also making me feel wortheless in garbage pvp mode

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Originally Posted by GayRobot

Click on them and kill them. The enemy team has no tank, so their melees will have to take some heat when stepping up, creating kill opportunities, or leave the ranged to get dived and instantly forced out. Split fights across the map and don't stand in Skyshatter.

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On top of that, the CC gap between the two teams is enormous, and the NIN is crippled by SGE DoT.
This is frankly a match where the PLD just sits on the Crystal and holds W to win.
The second team would have to hard dive and delete the AST inside a poly window to have a chance,
and you're not going to get that level of coordination in a random group.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Sorry but no, this match goes one way and one way only. Pure melee vs a bunch of casters its extremely easy to overwhelm them,

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No, it doesn't. I'd be happy to see that matchup if I was the AST in this example.
First team has loads of control and mobility, and they have a rallying point in the PLD.
Second team displays an unusually high level of coordination for random DPS, or they lose.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

On top of that, the CC gap between the two teams is enormous, and the NIN is crippled by SGE DoT.
This is frankly a match where the PLD just sits on the Crystal and holds W to win.
The second team would have to hard dive and delete the AST inside a poly window to have a chance,
and you're not going to get that level of coordination in a random group.


No, it doesn't. I'd be happy to see that matchup if I was the AST in this example.
First team has loads of control and mobility, and they have a rallying point in the PLD.
Second team displays an unusually high level of coordination for random DPS, or they lose.

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Yes it does. Its literally brain dead easy to dive into a team full of casters and kill them before they even finish a cast. Not to mention the differences in LB's. The nin in that match ended it with 12 kills.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yes it does. Its literally brain dead easy to dive into a team full of casters and kill them before they even finish a cast. Not to mention the differences in LB's. The nin in that match ended it with 12 kills.

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Has nothing to do with the comp and everything to do with the players.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

Has nothing to do with the comp and everything to do with the players.

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Has everything to do with the comp

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Has everything to do with the comp

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I have won against that comp with PLD, SGE, AST, BLM and BRD before. It is possible.
Actually, BRD was the MVP of the team with well-placed silence and CC. We also won due to sheer stalling power of PLD, AST and SGE.
As for me, the BLM, i was just there to freeze and burn people for a little bit more dmg. We only got 3 deaths but 16 kills.

You people compare matches that can't be compared to begin with. You simply don't know the skill level of the players that participated.

I only know that matchmaking drives ppl mad as much as in feast before.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

They copy overwatch (failed) pvp system yet they didn't even forced roles/team comp.

Losing and getting less xp/other stuff because matchmaking put you into 100% lost match is horrible
Like literally right now i am losing because it's tank x healer vs tank and 4 dps.

Thank you SE for destroying sam and also making me feel wortheless in garbage pvp mode

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what u talking about, normally 4 dps and a tank can win EZ against 1tank 1 healer 3dps.

4 dps burst is hard to counter.

I can only repeat what ive always said - remove all tanks and healer from pvp and make it dps only. tanks and healer dont have buisness leveling there anyways...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I can only repeat what ive always said - remove all tanks and healer from pvp and make it dps only. tanks and healer dont have buisness leveling there anyways...

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Edited as I wasn't sure if your post was related to leveling or related to those roles in PVP.

If you want to level, feel free to spam PVE content, for example deep dungeons like HOH.
The purpose of PVP content is to ..PVP.

The EXP is a bonus, it is not the primary goal. The game designers have added it in as an incentive in this game since PVP isn't the core content and they want to keep it alive. So we don't have role requirements in PVP currently, i don't see why we shouldn't preserve the ability to join as any role.

So- I don't see why you would even want DPS only roles in PVP- with the current changes , healers 9for example) are more of a DPS with utility.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because this matchmaking is hot garbage and I'm tired of getting these wacked out teams where one side is loaded with burst and the other side is a bunch of support classes that can't kill anything. Like what is my team of a brd, blm, pld, sge, ast supposed to do against a whm, sge, drg, sam, nin?????

If square wants this mode to work with no role enforcement then the concept of support/tank designs need to disappear.

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They pretty much have removed roles. They're essentially cosmetic.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

They pretty much have removed roles. They're essentially cosmetic.

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They really are not.

Up vote for another “it’s SE’s fault that I can’t climb” post. I’ll give you the same answer I give everyone. If matchmaking, cheaters, job imbalance, win traders or any of the other hundred excuses that you all make when you can’t climb we’re actually as chronic as you say, then no one would be at Crystal. There’s roughly 5-6 hundred people at crystal tier on Crystal DC at the moment. Did we all cheat our way here with our dark web match-making mods?

It’s not the matchmaking, it’s you; and if you spent h a l f the time practicing as you did crying at your over-priced neon LED keyboard. you’d get out of bronze.

The saddest part about these posts is that the people that write them don’t want to come up to crystal for the challenge, it’s because they want to be able to tell everyone they made crystal.

No, in any system where matchmaking and balance issues can be major factors to decide, you ll have about half the people simply having a worse-than-average luck on this. Its statistics. Since FFXIV made advancement quite soft, more than 50% of people can advance, but for a lot of them (those with slightly less than average luck in matchup) they need to clock a LOT of matches to outweigh their tough luck.
And now imagine a player who is not significantly superior than everyone else in the match, and/or plays a class that is not a carry. With slightly less than average matchup luck, that player can be having trouble for no fault of their own.
We only hear from those who got shafted. We rarely hear from those who got lucky. For example, I havent even gotten the new armor look yet, so not much games played, and still do a lot of frontline. I still find crystalline conflict easy to level with a WHM, even though I am certainly not a good PvP player. I just get lucky, or my opponents unlucky, to have groups of bards and worse healers.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I felt this way when the mode was new, but its just blatantly false. Roles matter a lot and make a significant difference.

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Funny how you say its "false" and it makes a difference, yet you dont elaborate further.

Because it doesn't. Roles are a PvE Concept and even in PvE, depending on the Game the classic setup of having at least one Tank and one Healer isnt even always needed, but im getting offtopic here.

In PvP, what truly matters is individuality/Job identity. PvP is chaotic (and fast) by nature in MMORPG's, so much, that you cant apply PvE balance and Roles into it without breaking the Mode entirely.


Allow me to remind you, that pre 6.1 PvP including Feast, had the Role Model you desperately defend in mind, and i dont need to tell you or anyone how "fun" PvP was back then.

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Originally Posted by KickRox

Up vote for another “it’s SE’s fault that I can’t climb” post. I’ll give you the same answer I give everyone. If matchmaking, cheaters, job imbalance, win traders or any of the other hundred excuses that you all make when you can’t climb we’re actually as chronic as you say, then no one would be at Crystal. There’s roughly 5-6 hundred people at crystal tier on Crystal DC at the moment. Did we all cheat our way here with our dark web match-making mods?

It’s not the matchmaking, it’s you; and if you spent h a l f the time practicing as you did crying at your over-priced neon LED keyboard. you’d get out of bronze.

The saddest part about these posts is that the people that write them don’t want to come up to crystal for the challenge, it’s because they want to be able to tell everyone they made crystal.

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I'm in the crystal rank. I climbed perfectly fine. Doesn't mean I don't have qualms with the system.

So you can kiss whatever dumb theory you had goodbye. You can come to aether any time and we can have a fun little duel if you want as well.

https://i.imgur.com/dQMVFQl.jpg

I'm not pretending to be some kind of pro, but don't equate peoples qualms with certain designs to be just "lawl you suck" because it doesn't work that way.

Roles absolutely matter, but not "as much" if your team is "good."

An average team can be saved by a WHM/AST/WAR griefing the field. If you don't think there's a difference when two healers a tank and 2 dps are fighting 5 dps or 4 dps and a SGE then I have a bridge to sell you because that shit is rough man.

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Originally Posted by KickRox

If matchmaking, cheaters, job imbalance, win traders or any of the other hundred excuses that you all make when you can’t climb we’re actually as chronic as you say, then no one would be at Crystal.

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While I agree the player is partially to blame, now that the numbers have thinned (somewhat) it's not hard to understand that when queues were instant, things were new, and meta was undecided that it was "easier" to climb to said rank.

Yes skill plays a factor in getting points but i guarantee you it was a LOT easier to have even matchups when the kits were new/people didn't know the mode that well compared to now. By sheer math alone it's not hard to understand why people could be at Crystal and either not know how to play their given class.

I mean all the people that got past Platinum into Diamond, and then past Diamond into Crystal, leaves only the people who couldn't play good enough in the previous tiers meaning the pool is even more geared towards being set up with people who either never learned how to play their class or just don't know what they're doing.

Well if we're going to throw around "I got crystal so I know what I'm talking about", I've done so across two characters and I'll say this - I'd take a team of 5 DPS that knows how to play and focus target over a "meta" comp every time. No, I don't think it's perfectly balanced or even close, but locking role requirements wouldn't fix that part.

Also, "1v1 me bro" is one of the dumbest things I've seen yet. The game is not balanced around 1v1. White mage is one of the worst jobs for 1v1. Yet you probably think a team with a white mage has a serious advantage over a 5 DPS team, yeah? (I'd still take the 5 DPS team if they know what they're doing - they could erase the WHM or anyone else before they could even react).

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

(I'd still take the 5 DPS team if they know what they're doing - they could erase the WHM or anyone else before they could even react).

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Therein lies the "Rub" as they say.

You can't depend on your team.

You can't depend on the server.

You can't depend on cc immunity.

You can't depend on the communication tools in game as limited as they are.

You can't depend on matchmaking.

So what can you rely on? Your kit? Well those are imbalanced too.

All of these issues stacked up make the problem the mountain it is, sure, but they're still problems individually.

There's no way people can say with a straight face that a healer on the other team can't/won't make a difference for the team if they're on equal footing skill wise. ESPECIALLY if it's a WHM due to the cc/protect/etc. Countering one insane scenario of "all dps party would suck" with another of "no all dps party would ruuuule" doesn't change the fact that while roles are not strictly enforced you absolutely DO notice them when played well.

We can say the mode is based around not "needing" them sure but to pretend like a good WAR or good WHM won't help change the tide against a party is nonsense and being openly obtuse.

It also depends on the composition of those 5 dps. If its a bunch of ranged casters and a single melee vs a war/whm and all melee dps with rdm or brd mixed in for silence for the rest....lol good luck. Its pretty easy to shutdown casters with a stack of melee diving them.

The matchmaking in general is just bad. Double tanks or double healers, teams stacked with melee vs stacked with casters etc....It should at least attempt to balance out the team compositions instead of just looking at your general rank. The fact that queues pop within 10 seconds makes me question what little matchmaking the game even has.

The problem you're both alluding to there is the DPS are imbalanced. And I agree.

Give me a DRG+NIN+any 3 other DPS, meta or not (but a RDM would be fantastic), and - again, given that they know what they're doing - I'd take that over a WAR+WHM+3DPS team.

But you'll notice here role requirements don't fix anything. The problem is DRG+NIN can coordinate to virtually-instant-kill anything - and adding more DPS, even bad ones, just makes it more reliable if they don't coordinate perfectly. The problem with not wanting a team of, say, BLM, BRD, DNC, etc is because those individual jobs are too weak. Again, misguided role requirements won't fix that. (Though, I'd still take BRD with that DRG+NIN combo - silence is gold on a target being bursted)

I'd still take the whm+war combo over an all dps team. There's just too much utility between the two to cause so much disruption for the opposing team.

Also, its not that BLM and BRD are too weak (I can't comment on DNC, I haven't played it), its just that the lack of proper matchmaking makes their weaknesses stick out a lot more. A BRD LB doesn't have a heavy impact in a fight and they are heavily reliant on the team because its a support job that doesn't really have any burst. If you focus fire the target I just marked and silenced then ya BRD is strong as hell. Outside of that? lol good luck. Same with BLM. Their fire rotation is worthless, don't waste your superflares on it. Ice though? Hoooo boy they can cause some serious disruptions.....problem is that can't move while casting so its easy to just get away from them and God help them if a melee dives them. Their sleep is also....just meh.

Neither BLM or BRD are bursty and rely heavily on the rest of the team to peel for them and focus the targets they are controlling (silence/freeze). Less so BRD because repelling shot is pretty decent, but BLM is pretty limited on their ability to escape.

Basically when matchmaking decides to stack a bunch of casters....you're gonna have a bad time because no one will really peel for anyone as they are too busy running away themselves. Matchmaking should at least attempt to find a balance of melee and ranged between each team instead of just stacking all of one or the other.