Are Epic games out to KILL Steam? (SIPFFO) related)

Stranger of Paradise looks so amazing, as does FF7R, but the thing staying my hand on even trying these games is something I was told years ago about Epic Games that might be a bit hyperbolic if it's true at all, but did solidify a powerful early impression, and I've never really had a place to ask for more input, until it occurred to me that I could ask here, as a FF fan.

The long and the short of my early impression is that unlike many competitors that seem to run in parallel in their place in the market, Epic games are specifically a rather "hostile competitor" to Steam's ubiquity in PC gaming. To hear someone who I considered pretty versed and "finger on the pulse" of such things tell it, basically Epic is out to spend money from their deep "war chest" to get exclusives and lure developers over in a specific effort to "sink" Steam... and everyone's Steam libraries with it.

I'll be the first to admit that there's a somewhat problematic element to Steam being seen as the synonymous assumption of platform for PC gaming but, like... they are. That's just how it is. They got there (to their level of ubiquity) first, everyone's invested, and well... for good or ill, until they do something utterly abhorrent to kill themselves, speaking as someone who IS deeply invested in an extensive library, I kind of feel a paranoid loyalty to Steam, at least on the axis of "vs the evil company apparently trying to take my Steam library away."

...And yet, every time I visit this mindset, it seems rather extreme, and I have to ask "was my source wrong?" Ok, I'll also admit I question it when I pine for Stranger of Paradise on PC, but really, it's time to ask this out loud: How evil is Epic on this specific axis, was my initial source wrong, and is my foundational impression of Epic way off base?

I'm interested in other perspectives. Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies/discussion!

I have no interest in either of them or having my game library locked to a third party platform.

I'm just not sure why SE needed to use a "platform" at all for their PC releases. I got FFXIV straight from their own webpage, why can't I just get the rest of their games from there too?

I'm not opposed to using Epic or Steam, or GoG or whatever. All it is in the end is just a different launcher, you don't even have to spend extra money or physically move anything like you would with console exclusives.

I use the fitgirl platform. :^) j/k j/k

Though I believe there is a 3rd party program that makes shortcuts of the games on your system and launches whatever it needs to play it. I believe it was Fusion Game Manager or something but I assumed it was made to solve the issue of everyone wanting their own drm to protect their games. Though the RE8 debacle was funny, that game was 100% drmception to the point Capcom had to fix their drm so it works with steam/epic/gog's drm.

This is why I buy games directly from retailers instead of through Steam.

Epic Games Store has been losing money ever since they started it. They can giveaway as many free games as they like or sign as many exclusive deals as they like, people don’t buy games on the EGS, they buy on Steam. Valve have absolutely nothing to worry about, not for a long time.

But how is this XIV related?

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Originally Posted by LioJen

I'm just not sure why SE needed to use a "platform" at all for their PC releases. I got FFXIV straight from their own webpage, why can't I just get the rest of their games from there too?

I'm not opposed to using Epic or Steam, or GoG or whatever. All it is in the end is just a different launcher, you don't even have to spend extra money or physically move anything like you would with console exclusives.

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Cause having your game in more stores, albeit a online one, brings you more sales and idk how much you slept through your math lessons but...listen to this...(or well read)...more sales means...more money! And now a even crazier theory...more money...makes investors and shareholders happy! Especially when you try to reach into the western market on pc it is a good idea to tap into established online stores, like steam.

^- Since our smoll excursus into economics is done with that. I personally hate it. I hate steam and being force bound to it and it was an awful mistake to create the account over steam.

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Originally Posted by LioJen

I'm just not sure why SE needed to use a "platform" at all for their PC releases. I got FFXIV straight from their own webpage, why can't I just get the rest of their games from there too?

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I'm thinking it's because platforms offer developers money to put the games on their platform. Perhaps they're getting a part of the earnings from sales.

With GOG at least you can get a launcherless version of most games that after the initial download never again require GOG or accounts or internet to play or install.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Stranger of Paradise looks so amazing, as does FF7R, but the thing staying my hand on even trying these games is something I was told years ago about Epic Games that might be a bit hyperbolic if it's true at all, but did solidify a powerful early impression, and I've never really had a place to ask for more input, until it occurred to me that I could ask here, as a FF fan.

The long and the short of my early impression is that unlike many competitors that seem to run in parallel in their place in the market, Epic games are specifically a rather "hostile competitor" to Steam's ubiquity in PC gaming. To hear someone who I considered pretty versed and "finger on the pulse" of such things tell it, basically Epic is out to spend money from their deep "war chest" to get exclusives and lure developers over in a specific effort to "sink" Steam... and everyone's Steam libraries with it.

I'll be the first to admit that there's a somewhat problematic element to Steam being seen as the synonymous assumption of platform for PC gaming but, like... they are. That's just how it is. They got there (to their level of ubiquity) first, everyone's invested, and well... for good or ill, until they do something utterly abhorrent to kill themselves, speaking as someone who IS deeply invested in an extensive library, I kind of feel a paranoid loyalty to Steam, at least on the axis of "vs the evil company apparently trying to take my Steam library away."

...And yet, every time I visit this mindset, it seems rather extreme, and I have to ask "was my source wrong?" Ok, I'll also admit I question it when I pine for Stranger of Paradise on PC, but really, it's time to ask this out loud: How evil is Epic on this specific axis, was my initial source wrong, and is my foundational impression of Epic way off base?

I'm interested in other perspectives. Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies/discussion!

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Add FFXVI to the list, since as usual, it will be Epic games store exclusive despite Steam being capable of offering much bigger sales....
I dislike exclusivity, which is why, despite me waiting to play FF7R and Stranger of Paradise, haven't yet bought them on Epic games, as I'd not want to support exclusivity.
Another reason that makes me dislike Epic games very much is them being like a brat kid who sees themselves much bigger than their actual size. Went on to cross with big names such as Steam and Apple out of nowhere with no real plans other than persuading their 6-13 years old fans to support their cause and free game offers on already-cheap games, in addition to trying to insert their account system on any games they hold their hands on.
All of this and more really makes me not want to buy or have any interactions with them.

There's no such thing as PC exclusivity when the storefronts are free. Get whatever storefront you want.

The fact is that games sold on Epic give more money to the developer (not only paid up front, but Epic takes a smaller cut from each sale after a certain amount is made, and even smaller if you use the Unreal Engine). As a game developer, the EGS is far more friendly to the livelihood of game devs, which doesn't matter to most of you, but matters when you have to put food on your plate and your game has only sold a couple hundred copies and Steam takes 30% of that cut.

EGS and Steam can coexist. EGS tries to champion the whole "developer first" mantra which by their percentage cuts and paying developers to switch over follow through, but it's not like Steam is going anywhere anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

There's no such thing as PC exclusivity when the storefronts are free. Get whatever storefront you want.

The fact is that games sold on Epic give more money to the developer (not only paid up front, but Epic takes a smaller cut from each sale after a certain amount is made, and even smaller if you use the Unreal Engine). As a game developer, the EGS is far more friendly to the livelihood of game devs, which doesn't matter to most of you, but matters when you have to put food on your plate and your game has only sold a couple hundred copies and Steam takes 30% of that cut.

EGS and Steam can coexist. EGS tries to champion the whole "developer first" mantra which by their percentage cuts and paying developers to switch over follow through, but it's not like Steam is going anywhere anytime soon.

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After a whole page of replies kinda meandering away from the intent of the thread, you seem to be knowledgable on the front I'm specifically asking on. I appreciate you speaking up, and I'm just wondering if (as far as you know) my friend's initial impressions (Essentially "If you support epic that's a strike against the longevity of your steam library") were crazytalk or if they were based on something actually known.

I'm not trying to find the "ethical consumption under capitalism," as there is none, (though it's nice to see a platform apparently supporting developers!) I'm just trying to inform my own choices as to whether or not I'm shooting my steam investment in the foot, or at least generally contributing in that direction, by buying from the EGS.

Epic can try but Steam makes truckloads of money compared to Epic store. They've done this for couple of years now trying to gather attention, with not so succesful results if you look at earnings on the specific stores. I would think that most Epic store users only have the bribe games as free versions and never paid a cent to Epic.
Personally i dislike forced exclusivity so i get games like that by different means. Square is no expection.

All of this hostility towards EG by gamers is really weird to me, but I guess there are less people that really care how the games industry does behind the scenes.

With EGS or not, Epic Games still makes games the way they are possible today - the Unreal Engine powers a ton of SE's latest games including FF7R and SoP. They're making money regardless by the nature of making a frankly excellent tool for game developers. It is one of the two biggest game engines in the world, so tim sweeny and EG probably don't care that much how their store is doing.

Something to note: Sony, Microsoft, and every game company ever has been buying exclusives since the dawn of time. We've been hearing in the news constantly about Sony buying X and Microsoft buying Y. Most of the time this isn't about exclusivity, this is about exclusivity from the thing YOU want it to be on. If Sony bought Square, FF fans wouldn't flinch but if Microsoft bought Square it'd be a riot.

This is the current climate of game development these days. Exclusivity brings sales and it's been that way since the dawn of the home console, since Nintendo and SEGA. If you don't want to participate in it, focus your money on games that are multiplatform and give players the choice to go wherever. FFXIV and the future of FF aren't those games.

Speaking from a developer standpoint, you're not going to like to hear this, but Epic Game Store is a publisher/developer heaven. If your game is Unreal Engine, you are taking home 88% vs 70%. It already costs 5% in royalties, but they don't double dip on EGS.

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/Unreal...a9abdeb1e7.jpg

In-case you want to know why KH3, FF7R, and Wonderlands are EGS exclusive. Square-Enix and gearbox aren't dummies.

Games like FFXIV, well that doesn't matter SE pays the 30% cut on platforms like Steam or PlayStation Store for the base game/expansions.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

All of this hostility towards EG by gamers is really weird to me, but I guess there are less people that really care how the games industry does behind the scenes.

With EGS or not, Epic Games still makes games the way they are possible today - the Unreal Engine powers a ton of SE's latest games including FF7R and SoP. They're making money regardless by the nature of making a frankly excellent tool for game developers. It is one of the two biggest game engines in the world, so tim sweeny and EG probably don't care that much how their store is doing.

Something to note: Sony, Microsoft, and every game company ever has been buying exclusives since the dawn of time. We've been hearing in the news constantly about Sony buying X and Microsoft buying Y. Most of the time this isn't about exclusivity, this is about exclusivity from the thing YOU want it to be on. If Sony bought Square, FF fans wouldn't flinch but if Microsoft bought Square it'd be a riot.

This is the current climate of game development these days. Exclusivity brings sales and it's been that way since the dawn of the home console, since Nintendo and SEGA. If you don't want to participate in it, focus your money on games that are multiplatform and give players the choice to go wherever. FFXIV and the future of FF aren't those games.

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Hence why consoles suck, hence why Apple is bad for people who prefer to choose where to buy and which "whateveryouwish" to choose. With Steam and GOG i have the option to choose.
Metro Exodus, anyone remember that drama? They sold the game on Steam and few sundowns before the game went live they pulled the game and took Epic's bribe to "help with the developing costs" or Phoenix Point drama. In those cases its very easy choice, not buying or supporting. There is enough other things to play.

Nope! There's a lot of rumors about EGS trying to kill Steam but it simply won't happen. Steam is still and for the foreseeable future will be the prime storefront for PC gaming — if anything, competition between EGS and Steam if the former gets big enough will push Steam to step up its feature list or find a way to attract more developers to publish to them.

Epic Games doesn't (and shouldn't imo) have the power to kill Steam or your games library - it's not a virus. Actually it's beneficial that steam exists, because games made in the Unreal Engine outside of the EGS can collect royalties, so Epic profits one way or the other.

Do you, by all means! I'm just pointing out that EGS whether you like it or not is far more developer friendly - which is why it's more attractive for devs, especially those using the Unreal Engine to switch over.

Could you even tell me how many games are Steam exclusives, or does the fact that "Steam" is synonymous with "PC gaming" mean that a Steam game isn't an exclusive?

I want nothing to do with any storefront client. I barely tolerated Steam when I did use it, and the scummier ones were never on the table. I buy everything on either GOG or itch now.

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Originally Posted by Johners

Epic Games Store has been losing money ever since they started it. They can giveaway as many free games as they like or sign as many exclusive deals as they like, people don’t buy games on the EGS, they buy on Steam. Valve have absolutely nothing to worry about, not for a long time.

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So yes, EGS loses money, but only on the sales part. They make huge amounts of money on their engine, so technically they are making money, just not from the store. I do however buy on both EGS and Steam. Both my libraries are pretty large, so some of us do buy from EGS.

Also to the OP: EGS isn't trying to shut down Steam. They are just another competitor.

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Originally Posted by LioJen

I'm just not sure why SE needed to use a "platform" at all for their PC releases. I got FFXIV straight from their own webpage, why can't I just get the rest of their games from there too?

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Publishers use a platform like Steam for a few reasons but mostly because it was historically cheaper to use the big platform instead of rolling your own tech. Even Twitch, a big streaming platform, has this problem in comparison to something like YouTube. The operational cost of delivering that much data while factoring in all the operational demands (customer support, data protection etc) just makes it too expensive to really role your own. Subscription MMOs and F2P online games are the only real exception here because they usually have an audience that only cares for those games and the monetisation/scale balances out.

The other factor is history. Piracy was really damaging the PC gaming industry back when Valve launched Steam and combined with the PS3 & Xbox 360 launching, Valve provided a solution to both digital rights management and the feature set of those consoles that was easy for multiplatform developers/publishers to utilise. Over time people buy into using these tools, like they some people buy into a console platform/ecosystem, and don't want to switch.

Steam is THE platform for PC gaming IMHO as it's the oldest established main platform and has the biggest library, not to mention I've got a massive buy in with a huge games library. I'm not going to start buying games elsewhere and much like I'll happily ignore Xbox exclusives because I own a PlayStation, I can ignore EGS releases to wait for Steam or just pirate if they never reach it.

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Originally Posted by technole

In-case you want to know why KH3, FF7R, and Wonderlands are EGS exclusive. Square-Enix and gearbox aren't dummies.

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Square Enix and Gearbox both received money up front to not publish on Steam for a limited time. Publishers know platforms like Steam and PlayStation sell more than Xbox or EGS, so they want financial compensation for lost sales. More importantly, it's a publishing decision and not a developer decision. There's plenty of situations in which publishers force quite harmful deals onto developers they're publishing for but don't actually own, the story isn't as clear as the number Epic put out.

Square Enix took a deal from Xbox back in 2013 to make Tomb Raider a timed exclusive to the Xbox console. It backfired as the Xbox One was a joke at launch so nobody purchased the game and in the end waiting for the PC and PlayStation release. Hype drops off by then with less sales and a price cut needed for those later releases. It even had a knock on effect for Rise of the Tomb Raider and Shadow of the Tomb Raider. So much so that Square Enix finally did a cut and run of their North American studios and IPs (with a few exceptions and some mismanagement to go with it).

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I'm thinking it's because platforms offer developers money to put the games on their platform. Perhaps they're getting a part of the earnings from sales.

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Somewhat. It is more that EGS promises a developer a certain amount in sales by a certain date. If that isn't met, then Epic pays the difference.

Epic can sustain store losses for quite a long time, since Unreal Engine prints money. It's a way to build the business since they claimed they had about half the users as Steam did in 2021. Likely a good portion are eating up their free games or paying for exclusives.

Not having to double dip on royalty fees is their biggest carrot, and for a AAA studio like SE or gearbox, 88% revenue is a lot of money for say FF7R and Wonderlands, both are Unreal engine games, even if it's a check in-advance for say 5 million copies.

I just don't want a billion different launchers and stores.
It's kinda sad how NFT's and the discussion surrounding them has turned out because I actually think there could be a really nice application of them in games.
Imagine if you could buy a NFT that gave you ownership of a copy that could be used anywhere, basically you had a '' NFT account '' that you could login with on either Steam or Epic Games whichever you want and use it to verify that you own the game and play it from whatever launcher you wanted to.

Umm from moment one of being launched Epic games has said they are trying to take Steam down outright lol, its why they are using such S***ty tactics.
Hell they even tried to take on Apple.

They are the annoying yappy dog down the street that wont shut up, but unlike that dog, can actually bite everyone in the Ass and not care about any damage they do.
Im no Steam fanboy, but the moment Epic started tossing toxicity and underhanded tactics around, they totally lost any support I might of had.
Make no mistake, despite what they claim, they don't want a fair market, they want to be the ONLY platform.

As for Stranger of Paradise, that's no mystery, Epic tossed some magic beans SE's way and thy were so blinded by the instant, shiny dollar signs, they couldn't see the larger pile of cash it distracted them from, but well that goes for everyone who chooses a timed exclusive.

I know complaining about it wont change anything as most, just dont care what Epic or frankly, any other gaming company does (People still touch Acti-Blizz products after all), but at least venting helps me feel a little better about something im powerless to change lol.

They are and have been trying to take Steam down like Sililos said. They haven't succeeded yet. One big issue is they don't want to improve their platform to try to honestly compete, but instead try to force consumers to their platforms by locking games only to it. If they made it something that consumers actually wanted to use and had many of the positives that Steam does, then they could be a true rival. And they could make Steam look more at their relationship with developers. Which would improve the choices for consumers and developers. They don't do that, because like Sililos also said, they don't actually want a free market. They want to provide an inferior product and not allow consumers any other choices.

Funny thing too with SE doing this on PC is they didn't do it on consoles. SIPFFO is on both Playstation and XBox.

I hope EGS gets better. Steam needs competition.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I hope EGS gets better. Steam needs competition.

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Steam is doing fine tho?
EGS doesn't even have basic features to this day, I mean Steam as a game studio is kinda shit nowadays.
But as a platform they're pretty great imo and very open.
The fact that they allow adults only games too as opposed to Sony or Microsoft is commendable imo it shows that they're willing to be as open as possible.
There's an argument to be made that they're too open and allow too much shovelware but I'd rather take an open platform with shovelware than a meddling platform sticking their nose into what third parties do.

Even without big competition Steam has been doing great really.

Stranger of Paradise is an amazing game. The canonicity of which can be taken or left as per the SoP Devs themselves, but for a possible lead-in story for FF1 it was pretty high concept and it stuck the landing for me. Even though I played this on PS5, DEFINITELY wait for a sale if you are getting this for PC as the performance is pretty rough, and on consoles its not great either, I'm hopeful it will receive performance patches closer to the DLC they have planned.

I'm hyped for the XIV graphic engine overhaul so we can get a Jack Garland collab and can't wait until he hits opera omnia.

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

Stranger of Paradise is an amazing game. The canonicity of which can be taken or left as per the SoP Devs themselves, but for a possible lead-in story for FF1 it was pretty high concept and it stuck the landing for me. Even though I played this on PS5, DEFINITELY wait for a sale if you are getting this for PC as the performance is pretty rough, and on consoles its not great either, I'm hopeful it will receive performance patches closer to the DLC they have planned.

I'm hyped for the XIV graphic engine overhaul so we can get a Jack Garland collab and can't wait until he hits opera omnia.

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Yeah I loved it. The different jobs made combat fun and I loved the story. I played FF1 right before it just so I would be fresh on everything and I was impressed about how it doesn't contradict anything in that lore. So it's not even that it must be an AU. It could very well fit right into established canon.

Seeing Jack in XIV would be pretty hilarious, too.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yeah I loved it. The different jobs made combat fun and I loved the story. I played FF1 right before it just so I would be fresh on everything and I was impressed about how it doesn't contradict anything in that lore. So it's not even that it must be an AU. It could very well fit right into established canon.

Seeing Jack in XIV would be pretty hilarious, too.

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https://media.nichegamer.com/wp-cont...21-768x431.jpg

*walks away and plays Limp Bizkit on IPhone*

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

https://media.nichegamer.com/wp-cont...21-768x431.jpg

*walks away and plays Limp Bizkit on IPhone*

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That and Lich had me rolling

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yeah I loved it. The different jobs made combat fun and I loved the story. I played FF1 right before it just so I would be fresh on everything and I was impressed about how it doesn't contradict anything in that lore. So it's not even that it must be an AU. It could very well fit right into established canon.

Seeing Jack in XIV would be pretty hilarious, too.

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Waiting for a sale. Just like any pther game I have on my wish list. Lmao

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Originally Posted by hagare

Waiting for a sale. Just like any pther game I have on my wish list. Lmao

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I highly recommend it. On the harder difficulties that I haven't poked at much but did play with some, it's got some challenging gameplay. But you can also just do baby story mode to experience the story. It doesn't really take itself too seriously so there are a lot of laugh out loud moments and some very cringey yet hysterical dialogue, but it manages to nail the landing.

I like Steam more then EGS. The library is bigger and finding games are so much easier. I took a look at EGS and good god is there list all over the place. I feel like whoever designed the store was someone in kindergarten =.

The gut feeling I get is that in the long run, Epic will trend towards being the favored platform for new AAA games, especially solo oriented ones, while Steam will remain the favored platform for everything else (e.g., indies, remasters, PC ports of former console titles, online games that make most of their money through post-release MTX).

Steam has the advantage of exposure plus a far more player friendly interface, but suffers from the fact that it's presumably getting harder to make money straight up off of Steam. Between the general expectation that a game will be buggy at launch, and that almost everything of note that isn't already very low priced will go on sale on a fairly predictable, repeated basis, it's hard, maybe even impossible for a traditional one and done AAA game published there to get a good traction of $70 buy ins.

After all, why (generally speaking) should I even buy a game right when it comes out? It's not like it'll sell out like a physical store. It's probably going to need a patch to be reliably playable that I might as well wait for. It's probably also going to be deep discounted sometime later in the year, too. If it's not deeply discounted enough, I may as well (especially when buys tend to go straight to the backlog anyway) buy one or more of the other many games I've got sitting on my wishlist instead (example: Tales of Arise, which probably as long as even the sale price is over $40 is going to languish on the wish list). Even if sales were not a thing, Steam is a very indie friendly platform and a lot of indie games are worth their small price tags (even if it's a $15-20 game with a few hours of content, that still compares favorably to for instance a MMO, where on average you're receiving that much or even less new content in a given month for your sub). There's also remasters which tend to be budget friendly and, naturally, provide just as much gameplay time as the originals would have (well, mostly, since for the really old platforms a lot of that gameplay time was really because of the ultra slow load/CPU speeds of the day).

Most of the tactics that devs can use to counterbalance this loss of initial-buy profits are generally regarded as, to avoid using the T word, rather negatively influencing on the play experience (either explicit FOMO, design that causes player-created FOMO, or laying post-purchase MTX on thicker and thicker).

At least with Epic, they're getting a bigger cut and far as I'm aware there's less competition from indies than on Steam, so they're probably going to be able to sell more copies at MSRP vs the store user base than Steam.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's a big reason Switch exclusives are becoming such a thing too, with even ventures into the PC space from franchises like Shin Megami Tensei and Persona starting to feel like hope spots now (I was hoping to see more of those titles hit Steam but instead it seems they're right back to releasing only on the Switch ...).

Not particularly fond of how Epic entered the market so steering away from their store, which unfortunately for square means that i will be spoiling myself on their games through streamers than buying them myself.

Kudos to the engineering team the Unreal Engine though.

Epic managed to scare off a large portion of their potential customers with their crappy practices. Pretty sure they barely register on steam's radar.

Obviously not since there is no actual competition with Steam. Epic is very sleazy when they try to force people into their platform by buying time exclusives of games that people wish to play on Steam. All in all, I really don't see much point of the thread since it doesn't relate to FFXIV at all.