Bard LB feedback

I've been playing a lot of BRD in Diamond recently (ranked from Gold to Diamond on Bard), and while I think the Job is overall quite good, I feel like the LB is really holding it back.

The main issue I see is that LB charge mechanic only happens after everybody else has already dumped their LBs in the game. The other class I'm aware of that has such ridiculously long charge time for LB is PLD, and where PLD can stall enemy advance against the odds, for BRD LB to be effective your whole team has to be alive and around you, which means you were already winning or at very least deadlocked without the BRD LB, and casting it just there to help secure the win as you push the crystal forward. It's useful, for sure, but it hardly feels impactful.

Another job that has the same charge LB mechanic is AST with The Spire outside of LB. This means that, unlike BRD, a team with AST can have all of their LBs ready first, which is a massive advantage in early game, and it continues to be an advantage as the game drags on. Like BRD, AST also has an LB that buff allies, with a buff that's shorter but more impactful (30% damage and mitigiation that gradually fades over 15 seconds), making it better suited to the burst nature of the game than the more toned down 30s long buff that BRD provides.

I'd suggest that BRD as support dps should be able to charge party LB meters constantly like AST does (perhaps put the effect on Apex Arrow, or Blast Arrow to not have the same uptime), and have the BRD LB be just a shorter recharge rate, plain damage buff for the party that does more for the BRD itself, like grant faster charges on Empyrean Arrow, grant a free Repertoire every 5 seconds or so, or at very least let the BRD have the same damage buff it gives to everyone else.

Any LB that requires team coordination to utilize is conceptually terrible in a game mode where you can't properly communicate with anyone or queue with friends.

BRD Ult feels underwhelming. BRD ITSELF is fine. Any class with a true silence is good. But that Ult...just feels, meh.

A smaller buff with an aoe arrow rain, or a smaller buff and an apex arrow that pierces if anyone is between the target and you could be neat too.

I was thinking about it like GNB's limit break if their limit break wasn't crap. Basically you have a song cycling around you for 5 "ticks" that puts a stack of a buff on the party around you, so the team can see it easily, and at the end does a cast/move/etc so that way even if you're solo you're getting a benefit out of it.

With how imbalanced the teams are currently it's sort of hard to ensure that dps buffs don't skew things, with things like SCH Adlo being tied to shields and such. Then again as mentioned here the AST cards/LB exists and they have CC kit on top of that as well.

I know having every ult be "Big damage" is lame but without proper communication and team coordination it's a pain to utilize properly, which then becomes a pain to balance when/if we ever get duo/team/etc matchups. It's a tough spot.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Any LB that requires team coordination to utilize is conceptually terrible in a game mode where you can't properly communicate with anyone or queue with friends.

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One and done really. It's why the WHM LB is often touted as the best in the game and constantly mentioned alongside MCH's. An LB that lets you DO the thing without extra obstacles in a mode where they have fought team play at every turn in every way is a boon.

Ya BRD LB is really garbage. Unfortunately with the way the new pvp is designed, the jobs with the less impactful LB's have a hard time swaying the match and BRD is overly reliant on the rest of the team playing well.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Any LB that requires team coordination to utilize is conceptually terrible in a game mode where you can't properly communicate with anyone or queue with friends.

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Yeah, though BRD LB doesn't really require any coordination, many jobs will be able to do their burst rotation twice in the buff window with how long it lasts, which is kind of the problem. You just pop it and hope the rest of your team plays well enough to warrant the opportunity cost of it not being WAR/WHM/SAM/etc LB.

I'd be willing to trade 10 or maybe even 15 yalms of it's huge 30y range to allow it to go through walls. It's extremely hard to get a halfway decent use of it in during Volcanic Heart map.

Alternatively or additionally, I'd love if it was changed to be a channeled effect around you so people who come into range later would also get the buff. For the record, this is how the Frontliner's march buff on BRD already works so it's kinda counterintuitive that the LB that even has the effect swirling around you is a snapshotted buff instead. Since your teammates already lose the buff if you die during it, making it a passively channeled one would give you a bit more leeway in where you're popping it to get some use out of it.

Either being blocked by walls needs to go or the LB being a onetime snapshot needs to go.

I think the buff effect itself is okay enough but I'd also consider if the strength of the effect is really strong enough to be held behind a 120 second charge timer.

Outside on the group LB regeneration, I would love to see the movement speed up to be a group buff. Currently it only works on the bard.

On the wild side of LB changes I would like Final Fantasia remove the cast time on Powerful Shot.

I am on board with the last 2 posts.
Bard's LB is fun because it is also not just a direct mega hit LB and encourages support but it feels lacking and counter intuitive with the rest of the kit.

Bard is very solid, great CCs and all but LB really could use some work. The amount of times I wasted because I thought it was channeling only to realise I only used for myself pre pull (just to keep the LB meter reset and going) hurt lol

Kind of agree. Switched from Warrior to Bard for CC Ranked and it was really fun to be able to actually have a moment to think tactically for once instead of getting lost in the chaos of melee. The LB itself is -really- underwhelming with how slow it charges and how little it actually offers. 10% really isn't worth it when Astro can just sling that out with cards (and even throw out 30% with their own LB). It'd make more sense if Bard was constantly giving team buffs but it's effectively just a much weaker version of what Astro can already do with a sprinkling of low-to-mid potency attacks and one (Bind is situational) really good CC.

It's also counter-intuitive since Bards' damage is primarily based on being at range (What with Pitch Perfect/Powerful Shot exclusively doing more damage at longer ranges). So once you have LB you basically have to throw yourself into danger to get the maximum value out of it and then hope you can use Repelling Shot to disengage before you get murdered during the animation lock. To rub salt in the wound, Repelling Shot doesn't even give you enough distance to capitalize on your damage bonus at range since it caps at 15y but Repelling Shot only puts you back 10y.

Bard's LB needs to be able to apply at range, imo. Maybe like... Making your next shot on target the source of the bonus rather than you. Just my thoughts though.

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Originally Posted by geminipestdeath

Bard's LB needs to be able to apply at range, imo. Maybe like... Making your next shot on target the source of the bonus rather than you. Just my thoughts though.

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?? The LB already has longer range than any of BRD attacks, you can safely cast it from backlines as long as you have line of sight on your team (= as long as you are not playing on volcanic map, f that place).

Repelling Shot is perfectly fine, it has 10 yalms range so you can end up up to 20 yalms away, plus with bind on target all it takes is two steps to be in range for full damage. If the leap was 15 yalms you'd easily be out of range if you used it on stragglers running away after a team fight, 10 yalms jump is fine.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

?? The LB already has longer range than any of BRD attacks, you can safely cast it from backlines as long as you have line of sight on your team (= as long as you are not playing on volcanic map, f that place).

Repelling Shot is perfectly fine, it has 10 yalms range so you can end up up to 20 yalms away, plus with bind on target all it takes is two steps to be in range for full damage. If the leap was 15 yalms you'd easily be out of range if you used it on stragglers running away after a team fight, 10 yalms jump is fine.

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As long as you have line of sight being the iterative part there. And yeah the range on it is fantastic but if, for instance, you're playing on the map with the tornados/knock up and you're fighting on a checkpoint - good luck using LB without putting yourself in the thick of it lol. Premise is that when Bard's LB is most needed is when it's often the most dangerous to use. Though in retrospect that seems to apply for a lot of its kit.

And Repelling Shot is fine. Not great, but it's fine. Using it on stragglers running away requires you to have to sprint closer toward them than you would to deal damage so you have to make the choice of: "Do I get this bind for a few seconds" or "Do I get two whole arse GCDs worth of damage in while at the prescribed range for max damage". Ain't the best.

Repelling shot is great. I prefer it way more than MCH knockback. That said, BRD LB is really underwhelming imo.

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Originally Posted by geminipestdeath

As long as you have line of sight being the iterative part there. And yeah the range on it is fantastic but if, for instance, you're playing on the map with the tornados/knock up and you're fighting on a checkpoint - good luck using LB without putting yourself in the thick of it lol. Premise is that when Bard's LB is most needed is when it's often the most dangerous to use. Though in retrospect that seems to apply for a lot of its kit.

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I think you meant "imperative" but yeah, fair enough. If it went through walls like Lammas suggested earlier, I think that would alleviate a lot of pain.

BRD ult is very strong. LB charge means your team gets their LB back faster and the 10% damage buff stacks with the two buffs you are already providing - your team gets +20% damage for 30 seconds and you get three stacks of haste. It's extremely strong. All of the 120 sec charge timer LBs are.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

BRD ult is very strong. LB charge means your team gets their LB back faster and the 10% damage buff stacks with the two buffs you are already providing - your team gets +20% damage for 30 seconds and you get three stacks of haste. It's extremely strong. All of the 120 sec charge timer LBs are.

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That's a bit of a stretch, Blast Arrow only lasts 10s, so at best you are looking at 20 seconds of full buffs. Compare it to AST stacking The Balance with LB for +40%/+30%/+20% in 5 second windows (plus mitigation), which just works better in the burst meta. Then you add the fact that with AST you are guaranteeing that your team unloads their all of their LB first. 30% personal haste is nice, but even with 30% haste and 10% damage you will be hard pressed to break any damage records at the end of the game since BRD personal damage baseline just isn't that great. *

The LB is not weak, but you have a lot of eggs riding in that 120s basket. You suffer the opportunity cost early game (that AST does not), and to get full benefit your whole team has to be alive, and in line of sight, and has to survive full 30 seconds after, and you have to survive the animation lock while you cast it to begin with.

*edit: to make sure I'm not misconstrued, I'm not saying that Bard is bad or weak here, the toolkit outside of LB is perfectly fine, damage is just not its strength.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

That's a bit of a stretch, Blast Arrow only lasts 10s, so at best you are looking at 20 seconds of full buffs. Compare it to AST stacking The Balance with LB for +40%/+30%/+20% in 5 second windows (plus mitigation), which just works better in the burst meta. Then you add the fact that with AST you are guaranteeing that your team unloads their all of their LB first. 30% personal haste is nice, but even with 30% haste and 10% damage you will be hard pressed to break any damage records at the end of the game since BRD personal damage baseline just isn't that great.

The LB is not weak, but you have a lot of eggs riding in that 120s basket. You suffer the opportunity cost early game (that AST does not), and to get full benefit your whole team has to be alive, and in line of sight, and has to survive full 30 seconds after, and you have to survive the animation lock while you cast it to begin with.

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That's really not asking that much. Being in LOS of your team is kind of a given to begin with, unlike some LBs you don't need to be in the open to activate it (just dip behind a wall to trigger it), and there are quite a few LBs that end immediately if the user dies (SMN, SCH, SGE, etc.)

BRD has very good, reliable damage output due to their haste and a very powerful, long duration silence. Keep in mind AST deals less damage and has less health than BRD and you aren't guaranteed to pull The Balance - more often you'll get the comparatively weak The Ewer. AST's LB also ends if they die, just like BRD's. True, it's less likely to happen with that 30% vuln down effect, but AST's only lasts 15 sec and loses a third of its potency every 5 sec, whereas BRD's lasts 30 sec and has full effects throughout, and they're both on the same 120 sec charge timer. And don't forget, BRD also gets "Aquaveil, if Aquaveil didn't suck" too. Standard practice for AST is to just pack it up and leave when they pop LB since fighting into it is dumb. But BRD's lasts so long it's not really an option.

But the comparison is better between BRD and the other ranged DPS. And frankly I'll take BRD over MCH in high skill games every single time. DNC might edge out BRD in organized team games (remains to be seen), but BRD functions well in solo queue and is far more effective than MCH vs high skill players. Realistically, you're getting BRD with SCH or AST since those healers dominate high skill games, so it's really you stacking your +10% on top of their +10%. It's a huge boost to your team's output.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

That's really not asking that much. Being in LOS of your team is kind of a given to begin with, unlike some LBs you don't need to be in the open to activate it (just dip behind a wall to trigger it), and there are quite a few LBs that end immediately if the user dies (SMN, SCH, SGE, etc.)

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How do you "dip behind a wall" and not be out of LOS? Or do you mean the whole team doing that when regrouping? It really is mostly a problem on Volcanic Heart, and I did climb to Crystal over the weekend now simply by avoiding that map altogether.

And yeah, BRD is obviously not the only Job that can have its LB wasted, but a single wasted BRD LB is like WHM wasting two of theirs in a row. Just for that reason alone I'd rather have a 15s buff on 60s recharge than 30s on 120s.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

BRD has very good, reliable damage output due to their haste and a very powerful, long duration silence. Keep in mind AST deals less damage and has less health than BRD and you aren't guaranteed to pull The Balance - more often you'll get the comparatively weak The Ewer. AST's LB also ends if they die, just like BRD's. True, it's less likely to happen with that 30% vuln down effect, but AST's only lasts 15 sec and loses a third of its potency every 5 sec, whereas BRD's lasts 30 sec and has full effects throughout, and they're both on the same 120 sec charge timer. And don't forget, BRD also gets "Aquaveil, if Aquaveil didn't suck" too. Standard practice for AST is to just pack it up and leave when they pop LB since fighting into it is dumb. But BRD's lasts so long it's not really an option.

But the comparison is better between BRD and the other ranged DPS. And frankly I'll take BRD over MCH in high skill games every single time. DNC might edge out BRD in organized team games (remains to be seen), but BRD functions well in solo queue and is far more effective than MCH vs high skill players. Realistically, you're getting BRD with SCH or AST since those healers dominate high skill games, so it's really you stacking your +10% on top of their +10%. It's a huge boost to your team's output.

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I added an asterisk with edit but a bit too late I suppose. I'm not sure about AST doing less damage, but both AST and BRD do overall pretty well in current meta. BRD LB really could be better (if only just easier to execute, particularly on Volcanic) without making the job OP.

BRD LB is persistent. It's not like it applies a 30 sec buff once when cast and then stops. It applies the buff to all valid targets within range and LOS. You can dip behind a wall, cast it, and then move back out and it's fine. Or just run far enough away that the enemy can't punish you while you play your flute for a couple seconds.

BRD has a far stronger kit than WHM does. So does AST, SCH, SGE, SMN, etc. You *really* need to stop being so fixated on Limit Breaks.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

BRD LB is persistent. It's not like it applies a 30 sec buff once when cast and then stops. It applies the buff to all valid targets within range and LOS. You can dip behind a wall, cast it, and then move back out and it's fine. Or just run far enough away that the enemy can't punish you while you play your flute for a couple seconds.

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No sir, that is exactly wrong. It does apply a 30 sec buff once when cast, if your party is not in line of sight when you cast it they don't get the buff, period. There are people suggesting to change that to channeling the buff as you move around in this very thread.

Edit: Played a quick casual game to take this screenshot: cast LB behind a wall, moved into the brawl, I have 22 seconds left on Final Fantasia, two people are in LOS now, but nobody in my party has Heroes' Fantasia.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqzvvJdj/bardlb.png

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

BRD LB is persistent. It applies the buff to all valid targets within range and LOS. You can dip behind a wall, cast it, and then move back out and it's fine.

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This is NOT how it works.

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It's not like it applies a 30 sec buff once when cast and then stops.

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Meanwhile this is exactly how it does.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I'd love if it was changed to be a channeled effect around you so people who come into range later would also get the buff.

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I think this is the best way to improve on Bard's LB. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I see Bard's LB as a reactive LB instead of a proactive LB (I end up using it once my teammates LBs are expended to help rebuild their LB. I typically don't use it for its damage/ speed buff to help confirm kills, etc).

Regardless of how anyone uses their LB, ensuring that anyone within range (that range can be debated, I believe it should stay 30 yalms) can partake in the buffs would be a huge QoL improvement.