The unsurprising absence of Samurai from top DSR ultimate prog teams

Data taken from FFlogs world race page at May 3rd, 5:30PM PST

Out of the top 20 progressed teams that are logged, the DPS selection is as follows

RDM:16 SMN:6 BLM:1
BRD:10 DNC:9 MCH:1
MNK:15 DRG:12 NIN:8 RPR:2 SAM:0


This is not to say that SAM is not capable of clearing the latest ultimate.

But it is quite telling that something must be influencing the players' decisions to not play SAM.

For BLM, it is mostly accepted that they are simply a more difficult job to play for prog.
For MCH, their DPS is still undertuned compared to the other phys ranged and offers little utilities of note. Not to mention their damage profile is reliant on GCD-generated resources that suffers a bit from the ultimate fight design.
For RPR, their damage ceiling is comparatively lower than the other melees, and they have a similar GCD resource conundrum as with MCH.

But I definitely couldn't point to what issues SAM could possibly be having right now, not a single thing at all. /s

I also count 15 Scholars.

Unsurprising that those 15 SCH and 12 DRG, and even the 10 BRD, wouldn't want a SAM in the group. At least the DNC has a choice of who gets their crit buff.

I'm surprised there's not more NIN, given how well they're performing.

Can't wait for SE to see this data and realize they need to buff Kasha and Gekko by 10 potency.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Can't wait for SE to see this data and realize they need to buff Kasha and Gekko by 10 potency.

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youre too generous. theyll buff mangetsu and increase the duration of third eye to 5 seconds.

Don't give them any ideas now. I just hope this is a good enough indicator that they messed up bad this time around.

SCH, DRG, BRD, DNC. Four classes that buff crit, and SAM nowhere to be seen. If people unsubbing wasn't a clear indicator that these changes ruined the class, then surely such data would.

At least that's the hope. Not to mention that the pitiable 'buffs' we got in 6.11 was a kneejerk reaction to a meme rotation keeping up with whatever projected numbers they had.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

SCH, DRG, BRD, DNC. Four classes that buff crit, and SAM nowhere to be seen. If people unsubbing wasn't a clear indicator that these changes ruined the class, then surely such data would.

At least that's the hope. Not to mention that the pitiable 'buffs' we got in 6.11 was a kneejerk reaction to a meme rotation keeping up with whatever projected numbers they had.

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They "buffed" because some random dev remembered that SAM bana lasts 1 minute but they have constant transition mechanics in DSR where you hit boss for like 20 seconds making ability worthless.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Can't wait for SE to see this data and realize they need to buff Kasha and Gekko by 10 potency.

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They will get -100 potency and become auto crit like Senei (it's a spoiler for next patch sorry)

Imagine them doubling down on the samn changes and then give more classes auto-crit attacks.. wasnt dragoon and ast next?

Dear god... this is some information. Also don't give them more ideas... do not remove my Higanbana... I love keeping that 1 minute DoT up even if it doesn't fit every fight... omg don't make them take that away either don't give them more idiotic ideas DX !!

You know how they can fix those participation numbers?

Bring every other class down to SAM's current drudgery... :P

Then everyone has a equally depressing choice across all the classes!


But in all seriousness... It still blows my mind that it looks like that's what they are actually doing... I mean, what kind of lunatic designs away from what was effectively one of their most enjoyable classes to play? You'd think the wise decision would be to do the opposite and actually bring the other classes that weren't as fun to play, up to the enjoyment level of SAM. Not normalize dysfunctional classes.

Do we need any more proof how the failed the Samurai? Revert the Samurai! This was a failed experiment!

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Can't wait for SE to see this data and realize they need to buff Kasha and Gekko by 10 potency.

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Self reported runs via a third-party application are not going to been seen by SE.

Since SE has access to actual in-game data, and there are more than 20 groups actively participating, I expect them to make their assessments on actual fact, rather than conjecture.

having monk with mantra is much better than a SAM in ultimate prog

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Dear god... this is some information. Also don't give them more ideas... do not remove my Higanbana... I love keeping that 1 minute DoT up even if it doesn't fit every fight... omg don't make them take that away either don't give them more idiotic ideas DX !!

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I actually want for stuff like ultimate with tons of transitions a simple skill that has 1 minute cd but converts all remaining dot timer into damage (cant crit/dh) but w/e need more dumbing down and auto crits.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Self reported runs via a third-party application are not going to been seen by SE.

Since SE has access to actual in-game data, and there are more than 20 groups actively participating, I expect them to make their assessments on actual fact, rather than conjecture.

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Sorry but i will just repeat myself here again, they literally based 6.08 buffs based on what devs found out on fflogs, again if they had actual data from beginning (like just before ew release), stuff like reaper everywhere and dead classes wouldn't happened.

Thinking devs do their own log/test runs for damage is just silly after 6.1 at this point.

Ummm just skimming through FFlogs and well... Ain't progress usually skeved against Selfish DPS jobs? Looking at previous savage numbers for Samurai were pretty low already with around 1% pick across all servers for the last boss progression. Even Black Mage was picked much less than Red Mage though the trend turns around for speed kills.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Sorry but i will just repeat myself here again, they literally based 6.08 buffs based on what devs found out on fflogs, again if they had actual data from beginning (like just before ew release), stuff like reaper everywhere and dead classes wouldn't happened

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Your proof for this patently ridiculous charge is ... ? Wishful thinking?

You do know that the term 'literally' means, right?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Your proof for this patently ridiculous charge is ... ? Wishful thinking?

You do know that the term 'literally' means, right?

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Prove it otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Prove it otherwise?

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I don't have to prove anything, since I didn't make the assertion "they literally based 6.08 buffs based on what devs found out on fflogs". You did.

To make things easier for readers, I direct you to a web article about the fallacy called "Proof by the Lack of Evidence": http://www.fallacydetective.com/arti...the-other-guy/

It includes this converstation:

Mother: “I thought I told you to clean your room.”

Calvin, waving his arms: “I did! But giant beetles from the planet Zorg came in the window and ransacked the place! I’m lucky to be alive!”

Mother: “That’s ridiculous.”

Calvin: “You can’t say that. You didn’t see them. How do you know they weren’t here?”

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Prove it otherwise?

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Wouldn't that mean that both of you are lying because neither of you can supply the proof other than absence of proof for the other side's argument?

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Wouldn't that mean that both of you are lying because neither of you can supply the proof other than absence of proof for the other side's argument?

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Well hes coming from toxic positivity and i have played from start ew till now. Will i believe that devs test stuff like should? At this point no.

But sorry devs good, SAM needs more braindead changes like removing combo and more auto crits.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Well hes coming from toxic positivity and i have played from start ew till now. Will i believe that devs test stuff like should? At this point no.

But sorry devs good, SAM needs more braindead changes like removing combo and more auto crits.

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Wait, what? Where the freaking god did you take this from? All i freaking pointed out that both you and DPZ2 use the absence of proof stating otherwise as your proof. Neither of you provided anything else for your claim whether it be proof that dev team takes their data from FFlogs or the proof they take the data directly from the game. Nothing less nothing more, so please stop reading too deep into this and placing me at whatever side of barricade you feel fit. I have nothing to gain nor lose in this debacle. Heck out of respect to SAM i haven't touched this job as so to not get skewed perception on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Wouldn't that mean that both of you are lying because neither of you can supply the proof other than absence of proof for the other side's argument?

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I don't see why you're trying to bothsides DPZ2 with this, he said that the devs don't need to look at FFlogs because they have access to in game data because... of course they do, they own the servers, they own the game, of course they have access to the data. In the past they've been able to determine and ban players for using Ungarmax from squadrons in raids.

Like the game has existed before they removed Kaiten, even if they made a stupid decision they have the tools to balance jobs and see what players are using because they've had to gauge the response of the playerbase to other, longer lasting, stupider decisions before.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

All i freaking pointed out that both you and DPZ2 use the absence of proof stating otherwise as your proof.

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Both? I made no assertion, although you may have read more into my skepticism than was actually written. Stasya, on the other hand, made a rather bold assertion with no evidence, and no desire to actually go do the research to back up that statement when challenged.

Addendum:

Ahhhh. I see now. I was not referencing my earliest post, which was based on an understanding about the inner working of other MMOs I've played over the years. It is well known (and written about) that World of Warcraft, for example, kept careful statistics about everything in order to better balance classes. If that is the practice for an MMO that has been running for over 16 years, I expect the same sort of practice in other MMOs. It is an inference that requires no reliance on external sources. The 'proof' is the general adjustment of job potencies after every major and minor point release in this game. It has to come from somewhere. Telling me that they look at FFlogs is ridiculous enough to require proof.

SAM has pretty much fallen in the same hole SE threw WAR into. Anything that brings its own crits is pretty much relegated to dungeons and keeping the bench warm.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Both? I made no assertion, although you may have read more into my skepticism than was actually written. Stasya, on the other hand, made a rather bold assertion with no evidence, and no desire to actually go do the research to back up that statement when challenged.

Addendum:

Ahhhh. I see now. I was not referencing my earliest post, which was based on an understanding about the inner working of other MMOs I've played over the years. It is well known (and written about) that World of Warcraft, for example, kept careful statistics about everything in order to better balance classes. If that is the practice for an MMO that has been running for over 16 years, I expect the same sort of practice in other MMOs. It is an inference that requires no reliance on external sources. The 'proof' is the general adjustment of job potencies after every major and minor point release in this game. It has to come from somewhere. Telling me that they look at FFlogs is ridiculous enough to require proof.

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Yes I was only referencing your last posts at the time where both of you basically threw your statements and left it at it. I guess it's my fault of not exactly reading the topic throughly though admittedly my sanity keeps me from diving too deep into this.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I don't see why you're trying to bothsides DPZ2 with this, he said that the devs don't need to look at FFlogs because they have access to in game data because... of course they do, they own the servers, they own the game, of course they have access to the data. In the past they've been able to determine and ban players for using Ungarmax from squadrons in raids.

Like the game has existed before they removed Kaiten, even if they made a stupid decision they have the tools to balance jobs and see what players are using because they've had to gauge the response of the playerbase to other, longer lasting, stupider decisions before.

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They have all tools in the world yet people waited for 6.08 when it was late already and next are atrocius SAM changes before ultimate. They have all tools in the world yet they didnt even tested their housing system. Just because they have "tools" doesn't say they it use them at all.
Just by reading about SB sam - i wouldnt even touched it at all lol. And now SE wants me to feel SB times. Thanks.
Again devs are good, need more praise for Yoshi P who didn't made any changes to BLM in 6.1 ^^ Just try SAM 6.1 changes, oh boy you will love it - Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

I'm surprised there's not more NIN, given how well they're performing.

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Same thing as Samurai, but nowhere near as bad. It just doesn't feel as good to play anymore.