Rescue needs to go away.

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

No

/10char

While I question the intent of the OP given the return of TitanMen, Rescue is a wonderful tool in the right hands. I had a bit of a lag spike in Aglaia earlier during the last boss, and one of my healers was kind enough to pull me to safety. Rescue saves more lives than it destroys.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

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I think as a healer the only time I've used it is when someone gets seduced and is walking into the AoE and I have it timed to pull them out before it goes off.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

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I use it for it's intended purpose, so no, keep it.

nah











.........

No. but if you REALLY got a problem with people rescuing you, you can just report them.

There's a thread on the Healer subforum where I suggested adding a "disable help from allies" feature similar to other games like Dota 2 where a skill can be used to either save a player or potentially troll and kill them. It seems like a good compromise to protect people from griefing and purposeful killing if they're worried about it, protect them from unwanted use if they care about it or are trying to greed with manaward or something similar, but it would still keep the skill around for the people who do want to use it and want it used on them for strategies or otherwise.
Nothing really outside of Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate really punishes a player for failing a mechanic past just killing them individually, so the risk of a player not being rescued and causing a wipe is pretty slim. It also pre-empts a lot of arguments about it by letting people decide if they want to be pulled or not.

No.
/10char

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

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Based. Also I agree.

On the contrary, it needs to be made better so it pulls the person to you instantly instead of having a delay.

Lots of people use it as intended.

I agree. I hate rescue with a passion.

No, I'm dumb and I need help. When people use rescue on me to save me from my own stupidity, I remember it with fondness and all the love in my heart for days afterward. I appreciate it more than they'll ever know lol

I only use it to rescue, which when a dps is way out of position, or the other healer, is very handy so.. hmmm... nope

a rezzed dps does less damage so, prefer to just have to toss a heal at them

While I can certainly see the potential for misuse, I see it used properly all the time in the level 50 alliance raids.

Yes, it does need to go away or let you choose to accept it.

I am sad rescue disappeared in my pvp abilities. It was so fun saving people with rescue.

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Originally Posted by Eris4494

Yes, it does need to go away or let you choose to accept it.

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having seen how fast people accept rezzes.. having to do that to be rescued would rather defeat the whole purpose of the skill.

I would prefer for Rescue to be reworked as a teleport instead of an animation. Most of the death associated with the legitimate use of Rescue is from that animation lock.

If it became a teleport, it could significantly reduce player deaths when used as intended.

It’s a good idea but it’s current method is too clunky for the current server based version and as such, is not on my hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

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It has been used for its intended purposes. I've used it as intended and have never used it to troll outside of anything to do with my FC mates.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

There's a thread on the Healer subforum where I suggested adding a "disable help from allies" feature similar to other games like Dota 2 where a skill can be used to either save a player or potentially troll and kill them. It seems like a good compromise to protect people from griefing and purposeful killing if they're worried about it, protect them from unwanted use if they care about it or are trying to greed with manaward or something similar, but it would still keep the skill around for the people who do want to use it and want it used on them for strategies or otherwise.

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My only problems with this are:

1. I rarely use Rescue, and pretty much only ever in the situation where not using it is about to cost me Swiftcast and 2400 MP -- e.g. the target player is about to die -- or where the player is standing somewhere that's about to wipe all of us. (Aglaia's final fight in particular, during the scale mechanic.) Without Rescue, I have nothing I can do for those situations, and the DPS can't really refund my 2400 MP.
2. Rescue's timing is... I'll politely call it "somewhat odd". If I have to use it, I'm generally having to stop doing everything else for a chunk of time. If you make it so there's a random chance that Rescue is just not going to work at all -- on top of the existing "Rescue sometimes goes off so late you're pulling an unconscious DPS to your side rather than a conscious one" scenario -- then I am likely to stop using Rescue altogether, rather than just using it rarely. As, I suspect, are any other healers who use it for its intended function.

If you want to remove Rescue, then just remove it. Making it conditional and demanding the healer play a guessing game of "hey, do I have to see briefly into the future and then drop everything to Rescue you, but maybe you've disabled it so it's just LOLNOPE and I wasted that time" is actually worse than just removing Rescue, because it will be functionally the same thing while still pretending we have Rescue.

I have come up before with ways to make Rescue conditional, but they're always kind of convoluted; for instance, if someone has disabled Rescue but a healer tries to Rescue them regardless, the Rescue doesn't work and the player instead receives a "Salvation Declined" debuff for 10s. If they die within that 10s, they get an "Unsaved" buff. A healer can rez an Unsaved player in question instantly and without MP cost, but the player is rezzed having gone straight through Weakness to the Brink of Death 50% debuff you get when rezzed while still under Weakness. That way, people who disable Rescue because they have plans to get to safety have nothing change; they can still move to safety and the debuff falls off. And people who disable Rescue and then stand in the bad at least don't cost a healer 2400 MP, so long as the healer tried to save them.

(And it's not a freebie you can just cheese a mechanic with, because the DPS hit on rezzing an Unsaved player would be significant.)

But that's not super straightforward. And I suspect people would still complain that, like, now healers use Rescue on them right before they're about to die so that they troll them by rezzing them with a more severe debuff. Or something.

So, fine. Just remove Rescue. But if you do, have something else to give healers in its place, I beg of you; the ability to pull people to safety and out of the bad is literally the only utility unique to healers in this game, and when used properly, it's an excellent MP management tool (inasmuch as a player who is no longer in the bad is also no longer going to cost the healer 2400 MP).

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

where the player is standing somewhere that's about to wipe all of us. (Aglaia's final fight in particular, during the scale mechanic.)

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That's one of about 3 mechanics in casual content where a single player can cause a wipe, and even then there is in fact a ~2-3 person buffer on the scales so you don't have to be precise. Other than those extremely rare cases, mechanics in casual and normal mode content just kills the player and they need a resurrect, that's it. There's not even a DPS check to beat on anything below Extreme, except again, a few fringe cases where the checks are very forgiving. Even if there is a wipe, that happens in the game. Teams wipe, teams fail mechanics it happens, you just pick it back up and try again.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

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Then you clearly aren't paying attention

It's a niche skill with value when its applied correctly, so I don't want to see it gone. Personally I think it should be restricted to pre-formed parties, as 99.9% of the time it's used on me in DF it's done so disruptively or on accident.

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Originally Posted by Moonsprite

I am sad rescue disappeared in my pvp abilities. It was so fun saving people with rescue.

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This is the only thing I liked about Rescue tbh.

I'll vote yes but would also talk about a rework.
The animation/lag whatever is terrible so someone might die anyway.
It's too clunky for me and I rarely use it.

I like something like Expedient where you got a speed buff to run out
and you're at your own control. Not being in control of my character is garbage.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Then you clearly aren't paying attention

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when other healers use it on other people yeah I admit I'm not seeing it. I do however notice when im in a safe spot and get dragged through several horrible things at once. I will notice that.

"Nice rescue" is something I've not seen a single person use ever.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

That's one of about 3 mechanics in casual content where a single player can cause a wipe, and even then there is in fact a ~2-3 person buffer on the scales so you don't have to be precise. Other than those extremely rare cases, mechanics in casual and normal mode content just kills the player and they need a resurrect, that's it. There's not even a DPS check to beat on anything below Extreme, except again, a few fringe cases where the checks are very forgiving. Even if there is a wipe, that happens in the game. Teams wipe, teams fail mechanics it happens, you just pick it back up and try again.

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Sure, wipes happen. (And 2400 MP isn't -- usually -- the end of the world, though it definitely can hurt if more than one player has eaten the Bad.) Rescue usually isn't critical; if I let the sprout run off in a panic with the stack marker in Dun Scaith or stand in the bad during Behemoth's meteors or Amon's Curtain Call, it's not the end of the world. If they stand in the landslide path on Titan and get yeeted into space -- one of the other few places where I have used Rescue -- and have to sit out the rest of the fight, eh, we can still easily take the guy down without them.

Though I've had more than one sprout go "OH! I wondered why I always died to that." after yanking them to safety in a mechanic and they see they survive. So it can be an educational experience. (Even if I'm always a little bemused they overlooked everyone else standing behind the big rocks / giant ice.)

And sometimes it's not saving one person from the bad. If someone is sitting on the party while marked with the chasing exoflare in T.G. Cid and demonstrably not planning to move, thus going to explode the entire party? I will absolutely run to the side and Rescue them away. Yes, I will die too, but the rest of the party survives, and my co-healer can get me back up. Rather than me booking it to safety and then needing to rez 7 people who didn't notice the targeted player was still standing with them. (I have done both of these things. The first one -- two rezzes, one being me -- is infinitely preferable to the latter.)

But you could apply the same attitude to spot-healing. "Oh, they got clipped. Well, I don't need to bother using a GCD to heal them; if they die to the next raidwide, it's not the end of the world or a wipe. This isn't savage or anything. They can sit on the floor until my co-healer or I have Swift back up." I mean, that is demonstrably true in most alliance raid content, especially Crystal Tower and Shadows of Mhach.

As a healer main, I'm going to try to keep my party alive. Even in low-level content where they don't need to be.

So although I demonstrably find Rescue useful (even if I usually use it like, once every month or so for one of those scenarios)... like I said, just get rid of Rescue rather than crippling it in a way that's actually worse than just not having it. Because at least if you get rid of Rescue, an argument can be made that healers need something to replace it, some utility unique to the role. If you leave it but make it fundamentally useless, to the point no healer is going to bother trying to use it to save one, it's easy to pretend you still have Rescue and thus don't need a replacement.

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I would prefer for Rescue to be reworked as a teleport instead of an animation. Most of the death associated with the legitimate use of Rescue is from that animation lock.

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Or that moment when you see one of your party on the wrong side of the Danger Bacon in E6S and have a moment of Dumb as you try to rescue them to the correct side... and watch them instantly die halfway there as they come flying across said Danger Bacon. (I was a brand-new shiny inexperienced raider new to savage, and I panicked.)

Just because I try to use Rescue correctly does not mean I always succeed, I grant.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

I like something like Expedient where you got a speed buff to run out
and you're at your own control. Not being in control of my character is garbage.

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making a role skill akin to an actual skill for a job current in the game is a no-no, healers are already crying that most skills are the same I doubt they would want the same to one of the few unique healers they have.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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This would absolutely be cheesed to hell and back in savage. Something that lets you make someone invulnerable to even one-shot mechanics? Hey, there's your solution to the (incredibly dumb) deliberate tank damage down strategy for P1S Intemperance!

It would take party finder about 37 seconds to devise new cheesing strategies for savage after a patch with that change went live.

Edit: To prevent cheese, there'd need to be a downside, and one that would hurt enough to discourage it being used except to actually save someone. Like if the person takes any damage that would've been in excess of their current HP, they take a 30% debuff to DPS for 45s or something; it wouldn't be quite as bad as rezzing them a second time into Brink of Death, but it would still be painful in any current high-end content.

(Hence my hypothetical "Salvation Denied" / "Unsaved" example earlier in the thread.)

i've used it for its intended purpose enough times i'd miss it if it were to be removed. and i do mean the truly intended purpose of "rescue someone from death or get the stack marker back with the group or drag a partner into a 2-person tower". and i'm fast enough to only have reeled in a corpse about 33% of the time.

I find it very annoying when i'm doing uptime and some no dps or overly cautious healer rescues me when I would have been just fine, especially as a BLM.
Luckily nobody does it in endgame content :)

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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sorry but that replacement has a lot of way to be exploited, if you want something like invulnerability you also need a down side, just check all tanks invul, but if you REALLY want to follow this route a good way would have something like bard's ultimate on LoL a total invul for 5 seconds that makes you unable to do anything but it's something people would find an annoyance or find place to exploit.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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This is a far better angle to take with it.

Understand that healers are beyond braindead as it is. Rescue really is one of the very few last facets of interesting optimisations healers have left even with it being as niche as it is. Thus why you'll find many people being so irritated with people blindly calling for it removed without so much as acknowledging how useful the ability has been in certain situations since it's introduction (Watch O12S part 2 clears when it was relevant for a good example).

IMHO the solution is pretty simple:

Visually keep it as is with the player appearing to be dragged to the healer, but mechanically the player being dragged should be teleported directly to you so no falling into pits or through fire. Invincibility frames whilst being rescued would be nice and all, but I suspect that would allow for a huge amount of abuse so I really can't see that happening.

Of course, this is expecting SE to spend more than 5 minutes and a napkin's worth of idea time on healers.

Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I find it very annoying when i'm doing uptime and some no dps or overly cautious healer rescues me when I would have been just fine, especially as a BLM.

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I will agree with this; I do firmly believe Rescue should be used sparingly because it is jarring to the one being rescued, and you don't know someone doesn't have a plan to zip to safety at the last moment.

As I noted earlier, my stated policy is (semi-jokingly, but not entirely joking) "Stand in the bad, and I will assume you have a strategy to get to safety. Die to that once and stand there a second time, I will just assume En Avaunt or Aetherial Manipulation or whatever didn't fire last time. Die to it a second time and stand there a third time, and I will assume I am your strategy to get to safety and act accordingly."

Despite this, I usually let it go rather longer than three pulls, before resorting to "okay, no, you need to be here".

I was in a PF farm party for Emerald Weapon EX when it was current (I've still only ever seen that mount drop once, and I've got nearly enough totems to buy the dang thing...), and we had a melee who insisted on going for positionals rather than going to their orb position in any sort of rational timeframe. As a result, they consistently clipped another orb en route when they did finally decide to move, thus repeatedly wiping us there. As they happened to be my partner for orbs, on like the sixth pull when they were demonstrably going to do this again despite everyone getting increasingly irritated (and my sense that we were about one wipe away from a disband), I just Rescued them into place.

(In what I'm sure was entirely coincidence, that was the pull where we finally made it past orbs -- and indeed, the checkpoint.)

They complained after the phase transition that I'd cost them uptime and DPS, and trotted out the old chestnut that "healers should adjust". Never mind there's no way to "adjust" to failing that mechanic.

In one of only two times I have legit just snapped at someone in this game and been anything other than polite, I replied "I *adjusted* your position. Pray I do not adjust it further." (A quote I had long joked about being the appropriate healer response to that, and which -- in the moment -- seemed the best reply I could make.)

Rescue should be used sparingly, and only to save people, whether that's by pulling them out of the bad, or pulling the bad they have out of the party, or whatever keeps people alive. But I will admit that there are those rare occasions where that salvation is delivered in an almost vindictively satisfying fashion...

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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I like this suggestion. I dont think it should be removed just altered. The animations delay on it is awful as is.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

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https://c.tenor.com/n0Qv7EH4QHkAAAAd/objection.gif

Himbos are not self-aware of the fact! You are not a himbo!

I had them use it on me and pulled me right over AOE that killed me. I have watched them on titan when they're going over the edge and use it on the tank to pull them over with them. I see it more missed used than used right.