Simple Samurai fix that keeps identity

>Revert changes to 6.08 samurai
>Combine Shoha 1 and 2 - 50% potency fall off after the first target
>Combine Ikishoten and Ogi-Namkiri


If you're still worried about "button bloat"

>Combine Guren and Senei

I don't expect to be paid for my brilliance, But I'll accept an NPC of my beautiful FemRa where you can only interact with her when you're on the SAM job class where you simply get the option to "Offer your Thanks".

Unlikely they will step away from the auto crit design. They are clearly moving in a direction away from crit stats to stop the wide swings of high and low parses and by the time 7.0 roles around the crit buffs from support jobs will likely be completely different. As much as I hate the changes, I will say my overall dps has been significantly more consistent even if it is like 3% less than my usual high spike parses. I would love to see 50k+ ogi namikiris but that just aint happening. At the very least I'd like to see kaiten return and just have that function create the auto crit.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

At the very least I'd like to see kaiten return and just have that function create the auto crit.

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aye, i could probably settle for that.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Unlikely they will step away from the auto crit design. They are clearly moving in a direction away from crit stats to stop the wide swings of high and low parses and by the time 7.0 roles around the crit buffs from support jobs will likely be completely different. As much as I hate the changes, I will say my overall dps has been significantly more consistent even if it is like 3% less than my usual high spike parses. I would love to see 50k+ ogi namikiris but that just aint happening. At the very least I'd like to see kaiten return and just have that function create the auto crit.

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I would be able to accept that. So long as the rotational flow of the job is back to feeling silky smooth. I dislike big gaps of nothing between my GCDs when I'm rocking 2.43-2.47s due to poor gear. Shinten is just too fast to fill that void.

I also really hope they do something about Tenka Goken and fix it. It's so horrible that kyuten is actually a better option, rather than a complimentary one.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Unlikely they will step away from the auto crit design.

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Scholars and Dragoons: Is my Battle Litany and Chain Stategem a joke to you?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Scholars and Dragoons: Is my Battle Litany and Chain Stategem a joke to you?

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They are to SE.

That should be readily apparent for SCH. DRG will sadly find out the hard way next major patch.

Can't wait for patch 8.3 where we get a single rotation that we can't fail, and no other skills.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Scholars and Dragoons: Is my Battle Litany and Chain Stategem a joke to you?

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Yoshi-P has already acknowledged the crit buff issues and has more or less stated that they are likely going to be redesigning the crit stat up to 7.0. By 7.0 those buffs will likely function in a completely different manner.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yoshi-P has already acknowledged the crit buff issues and has more or less stated that they are likely going to be redesigning the crit stat up to 7.0. By 7.0 those buffs will likely function in a completely different manner.

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Completely different manner probably means "5% increased damage for 20 seconds on a 120 second cooldown."

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yoshi-P has already acknowledged the crit buff issues and has more or less stated that they are likely going to be redesigning the crit stat up to 7.0. By 7.0 those buffs will likely function in a completely different manner.

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The Situation: A universal issue that could easily be solved by converting excess chance into bonus effect (e.g., a 120% chance of a +50% crit bonus -> 100% chance of a +60% crit bonus).

The Likely Response: Let's just homogenize all the raid buffs. Now that we stripped all Crit procs from all but Monk and did everything in our power to remove useful Speed tiers, it's not like they do anything differently anyways.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The Situation: A universal issue that could easily be solved by converting excess chance into bonus effect (e.g., a 120% chance of a +50% crit bonus -> 100% chance of a +60% crit bonus).

The Likely Response: Let's just homogenize all the raid buffs. Now that we stripped all Crit procs from all but Monk and did everything in our power to remove useful Speed tiers, it's not like they do anything differently anyways.

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I've seen some games solve this problem with the concept of "double-crits", which I like.

For example, let's say a crit deals +60% damage based on their crit rating and they have a 30% chance to crit.

Then, something buffs them with +100% chance to crit, their new crit chance is effectively 130%, but that becomes a 30% chance to double-crit for +120% damage with the remaining 70% chance guaranteed to crit for +60% damage.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I've seen some games solve this problem with the concept of "double-crits", which I like.

For example, let's say a crit deals +60% damage based on their crit rating and they have a 30% chance to crit.

Then, something buffs them with +100% chance to crit, their new crit chance is effectively 130%, but that becomes a 30% chance to double-crit for +120% damage with the remaining 70% chance guaranteed to crit for +60% damage.

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There is direct hits as double crit already.
I havent played at that time but at this point i want it to reverted back to be hit rating like in old wow. Crit mechanic is not bad, devs just too lazy to balance potencies but crit+direct hit is a curse of this game.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

There is direct hits as double crit already.
I havent played at that time but at this point i want it to reverted back to be hit rating like in old wow. Crit mechanic is not bad, devs just too lazy to balance potencies but crit+direct hit is a curse of this game.

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Hit rating is the worst idea in the world. You need a minimum amount of it to even be functional. It's an awful feeling when you don't have it and feels like wasted stat budget when you do, like piety but worse. Not to mention it runs largely counter to the way secondary stats work in FFXIV, where the impact of one stat over another is so small it's ultimately a matter of preference even if there is some ideal BiS. That wouldn't be the case if everyone is practically required to get X hit rating in order to not risk missing all their big attacks. If crit variance is a problem now, god, imagine hit variance.

I'm glad it's dead in WoW, and I'll be very glad indeed if the FFXIV devs have the sense not to bring it back here.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

Hit rating is the worst idea in the world. You need a minimum amount of it to even be functional. It's an awful feeling when you don't have it and feels like wasted stat budget when you do, like piety but worse. Not to mention it runs largely counter to the way secondary stats work in FFXIV, where the impact of one stat over another is so small it's ultimately a matter of preference even if there is some ideal BiS. That wouldn't be the case if everyone is practically required to get X hit rating in order to not risk missing all their big attacks. If crit variance is a problem now, god, imagine hit variance.

I'm glad it's dead in WoW, and I'll be very glad indeed if the FFXIV devs have the sense not to bring it back here.

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The major reason "Accuracy" didn't work for FF is not only because players had to meet a specific hit rating, but also that anything above the minimum needed was wasted stat points. It also didn't help that only Healers/Casters (iirc) needed to meld it to any appreciable degree.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

There is direct hits as double crit already.
I havent played at that time but at this point i want it to reverted back to be hit rating like in old wow. Crit mechanic is not bad, devs just too lazy to balance potencies but crit+direct hit is a curse of this game.

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Direct hit is completely different than double crit - the whole point of double crit is to address situations where a stat goes above 100% to prevent diminishing returns that incentivize players to avoid an otherwise good stat and/or avoid certain raid comps for similar concerns.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I've seen some games solve this problem with the concept of "double-crits", which I like.

For example, let's say a crit deals +60% damage based on their crit rating and they have a 30% chance to crit.

Then, something buffs them with +100% chance to crit, their new crit chance is effectively 130%, but that becomes a 30% chance to double-crit for +120% damage with the remaining 70% chance guaranteed to crit for +60% damage.

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Except then you're reducing the potency of something to make it a guaranteed crit, allegedly to reduce the frustration of performance variance from crits, just to then again allow it to crit. You will have added a step of convolution for... absolutely zero change, save that it'd cause the Crit scale to scale even better (more wildly/quadratically).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except then you're reducing the potency of something to make it a guaranteed crit, allegedly to reduce the frustration of performance variance from crits, just to then again allow it to crit. You will have added a step of convolution for... absolutely zero change, save that it'd cause the Crit scale to scale even better (more wildly/quadratically).

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To be clear, I'm not advocating a reduction in potency, just bringing up a solution I've seen elsewhere that works well. That said, you're right, they'd never go for that option since it'd reintroduce variance, which is something they're actively trying to mitigate.

Your original proposition is probably more in line with something that would work well given the devs' goals but also for player satisfaction, effectively just increasing crit potency when overcapping but without reintroducing any variance.

I think a better way to reduce damage variance due to crit is to make Midare(+Kaeshi) and Senei double-hits, akin to Dream Within a Dream and Barrage. Those two were picked because their animations show (at least) 2 hits.

I guess people would disagree over whether Midares hitting for "25k!!25k!!" feels more or less impactful/fun than the current "33k!!" (with 6.08's "50k!!" as a reference), but at least crit synergy would be restored.

Midare+Kaeshi makes up about 20% of SAM's damage and reducing the variance on that alone should solve most of it. Ogi+Kaeshi can revert to single 990 potency hits without introducing too much variance because it makes up 6-7%, plus doing so also keeps the full impact on SAM's largest single hit.

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Originally Posted by Avenheit

If you're still worried about "button bloat"

>Combine Guren and Senei

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Just replying to throw around an idea that is just better so people are more likely to bring it up in place of the above
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
This is just better than merging Guren and Senei in every way, removing 2 buttons, removing drifting which is only a skill floor issue, and already exists since Warrior does exactly this with Fell Cleave -> Inner Chaos under Nascent Chaos.

Try to spread this idea instead (save the image link or image itself lol) so the devs are more likely to notice it and hopefully make the change, it removes nothing but introduces so much QOL in just "one" ability.
And yes please revert changes if I haven't mentioned it recently myself lol

Also damage variance was super minimal on Samurai, it's only a problem that affects people who want to parse numbers which aren't even officially recognized by SQE, and often against TOS.
(if you want a nice video on the issue of parsing from a disgruntled Samurai main who is also entertaining please check the most recent video from Misshapen Chair)
You can clear the content just fine with the previous "issue" of crit variance, so I'd appreciate if the devs stayed away from feedback focused on unofficial tools that are "technically" against TOS and just lead to changes that make the job feel worse.

Moving away from rng good. Guaranteed mount drops then plz.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Also damage variance was super minimal on Samurai, it's only a problem that affects people who want to parse numbers which aren't even officially recognized by SQE, and often against TOS.
(if you want a nice video on the issue of parsing from a disgruntled Samurai main who is also entertaining please check the most recent video from Misshapen Chair)
You can clear the content just fine with the previous "issue" of crit variance, so I'd appreciate if the devs stayed away from feedback focused on unofficial tools that are "technically" against TOS and just lead to changes that make the job feel worse.

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That's a fair point to make. I hadn't even thought about the parsers. I play on console, so that never even crosses my mind in general. Also, Misshapen Chair makes some entertaining videos, I second the suggestion of watching it.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I've seen some games solve this problem with the concept of "double-crits", which I like.

For example, let's say a crit deals +60% damage based on their crit rating and they have a 30% chance to crit.

Then, something buffs them with +100% chance to crit, their new crit chance is effectively 130%, but that becomes a 30% chance to double-crit for +120% damage with the remaining 70% chance guaranteed to crit for +60% damage.

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It would probably be better that instead of crit chance over 100% leading to double crits just have it get converted into Crit Damage. Double crits can actually result in damage being even more spiky which is what they want to smooth out. Whereas crit damage simply functions as a ordinary damage boost for auto-crits while leaving the increased crit chance for everyone else for flavor.

Though that could just make auto-crit and crit booster party setups to go from being not synergistic to suddenly very synergistic in a single change.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

That's a fair point to make. I hadn't even thought about the parsers. I play on console, so that never even crosses my mind in general. Also, Misshapen Chair makes some entertaining videos, I second the suggestion of watching it.

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I played a lot of WoW and parsing is / was a real fucking poison to myself and others, even when I got exceptional parses (rank #2 brackenspore subtley rogue for one week lol) due to that games ridiculous RNG that would make the most unbalanced aspects of FFXIV look BALANCED. I have never looked to install ACT or track logs its just a much less toxic experience and I understand why and how the devs treat them against TOS.

Having that mindset influence my feedback and thus influence developers is less than ideal.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

I played a lot of WoW and parsing is / was a real fucking poison to myself and others, even when I got exceptional parses (rank #2 brackenspore subtley rogue for one week lol) due to that games ridiculous RNG that would make the most unbalanced aspects of FFXIV look BALANCED. I have never looked to install ACT or track logs its just a much less toxic experience and I understand why and how the devs treat them against TOS.

Having that mindset influence my feedback and thus influence developers is less than ideal.

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Yeah, never done any of that. I can see the positive and negative to using such a thing. But it sure seems like the devs use that as a means to rework the jobs. People trying to defend the SAM changes by saying it's only a 3% loss, not even taking into account how we get to that ratio and focusing on the end result like that's all that mattered. By that same logic, there shouldn't be any complaints about any of the changes ever made, but they happen.

If the devs are looking at these, please give us back SAM and only change it when this grand redesign is ready, not before. We aren't your beta testers, we're your customers and we feel cheated and robbed to varying degrees.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yoshi-P has already acknowledged the crit buff issues and has more or less stated that they are likely going to be redesigning the crit stat up to 7.0. By 7.0 those buffs will likely function in a completely different manner.

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This would be fine ... if they stopped doing all of this MID EXPANSION!
nobody would bat an eye if they removed Kaiten, reworked the crit system but then also add 2 new things in it's place, now with the removal of Kaiten and their slow transition to go away from Crit builds just feels like they have no idea what they're doing and just trying to band aid their issues.

Were the sams at savage complaining that they weren't top dog? yeah, but it was better than getting the identity stripped simply because likely in 7.0 there's gonna be a rework of sorts, it's just bad.
keep the job as it is now (some tweaks here and there no problem) but leave the big changes for an expansion.
Remember how underwhelming DRK and SCH felt went their announced the jobs for Endwalker? this would've been fixed for 7.0 in this way.
"look at how these jobs are changing due to the changes we've made for the next expansion!"
You'll see SAM sporting a new ability/gauge/resource/whatever and the world would go wild with speculation.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

I played a lot of WoW and parsing is / was a real fucking poison to myself and others, even when I got exceptional parses (rank #2 brackenspore subtley rogue for one week lol) due to that games ridiculous RNG that would make the most unbalanced aspects of FFXIV look BALANCED. I have never looked to install ACT or track logs its just a much less toxic experience and I understand why and how the devs treat them against TOS.

Having that mindset influence my feedback and thus influence developers is less than ideal.

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my static parses but we make fun of it more, we'll go for high parses when we're doing reclears, but we're not gonna wipe an pull if someone messes their rotation up.
The only thing with parses is that it made me feel like shit when i started learning RDM in savage content (played it in casual but never to the extend i had to now, enjoying it though)
and now i went from an 0-10 parses to concistently 50-70 parses, so it's nice to see the gradual improvement.

I can see why it's against ToS (and it's been debated many times at this point) but the main issue I personally have with their stance is how they want to say "ACT is against ToS" (while gently nudging to "aslong as you shut up about it, we won't do anything") but then add enrages to fights.
we got that land sea air trial thing, but that's not enough, that'll show you, that YOU are doing enough damage ... sure.
but it doesn't simulate any mechanics, for example with SAM was an perfect example with E10S in Shadowbringers, where you had to disengage the boss, or some strats were designed to screw over melee DPS.
So on the dummy you'll be doing more than enough damage, but in reality, when the boss throws mechanics at you, you might hit much lower.

Personally, I don't like Shinten. I've never liked Shinten.

In Stormblood's "Shinten Meta" where everything was about feeding more Kenki into Shinten, it felt especially gross to me.

I originally imagined that Samurai would be a visually-ascetic, slow, methodical fighter, a class that would line everything up carefully, then unleash a single big attack. Instead, Samurai was constantly jerking out awkward-looking sword stabs between what felt like every other GCD, and its big "damage windows" were about deleting a Midare to spaz out even more sword stabs. Felt really off-putting and weird to me.

Anyway, so I really enjoyed spending Kenki on Kaiten, not because it was difficult or skillful (in my opinion, it pretty much never was), but because it felt smooth, elegant, and satisfying. And it wasn't Shinten. Because I hate Shinten, because it's spazzy and unattractive and annoying.

So for me, it's not that Kaiten itself is some God Action that I feel deeply-enamored with, it's just that being left with only Shinten feels more gross than ever before to me. And in contrast, Kaiten was pleasant and appealing.

I don't really care about pressing the Kaiten button, I just like banking gauge and seeing it deplete and then power up my next action. It's just a satisfying gameplay tic. Also, it's not Shinten.

So, if Iaijutsu just always cost 20 Kenki to activate, or scaled its damage with Kenki spent up to a maximum of 20 or 25, and also did the little twirly animation when consuming Kenki... I'd still be happy with that.

But anyway, what I really want is for Shinten to just jump off the planet, and get replaced by something that feels bigger, heavier, more elegant, and just... better.

Honestly, I'd even be happy with only having Kaiten and Senei as spenders, and just judiciously choosing where to power-up non-Iai in order to avoid overcapping Kenki. "But that's HW Dark Arts!" Well, I liked HW Dark Arts, so I'm completely okay with that.

But alternatively, I don't know, maybe condense the SAM combo into 1-2 and then it branches into either Gekko or Kasha, and use Kenki to apply and maintain Fugetsu and Fuka as OGCDs. At least that would be pretty. And also, not Shinten.

Or take the cooldown off Senei / Guren and crank the cost back up to 50, so SAM spends Kenki slower, on bigger attacks.

I don't know, I don't really have a huge preference about the exact alternative, I just:

a) hate Shinten, and always have, because it's unattractive, awkward-looking, and spammy, and clashes with the entire vibe I was expecting for "Samurai"

b) liked elegant spenders like Kaiten because they felt pretty, smooth, and satisfying

c) like big heavy spenders like Senei and Guren because they feel more like the kind of attacks that I expected from "Samurai"

Bump so SE can't think that if just ignore the issue, it'll slowly die.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Personally, I don't like Shinten. I've never liked Shinten.

In Stormblood's "Shinten Meta" where everything was about feeding more Kenki into Shinten, it felt especially gross to me.

I originally imagined that Samurai would be a visually-ascetic, slow, methodical fighter, a class that would line everything up carefully, then unleash a single big attack. Instead, Samurai was constantly jerking out awkward-looking sword stabs between what felt like every other GCD, and its big "damage windows" were about deleting a Midare to spaz out even more sword stabs. Felt really off-putting and weird to me.

Anyway, so I really enjoyed spending Kenki on Kaiten, not because it was difficult or skillful (in my opinion, it pretty much never was), but because it felt smooth, elegant, and satisfying. And it wasn't Shinten. Because I hate Shinten, because it's spazzy and unattractive and annoying.



a) hate Shinten, and always have, because it's unattractive, awkward-looking, and spammy, and clashes with the entire vibe I was expecting for "Samurai"

b) liked elegant spenders like Kaiten because they felt pretty, smooth, and satisfying

c) like big heavy spenders like Senei and Guren because they feel more like the kind of attacks that I expected from "Samurai"

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I love all this! And exactly as you described the feel of the Samurai - that's what I like about it, too. They were *purposeful* and elegant and methodical. Unemotional and cool. (basically, the opposite of myself, so it was especially fun!) They were never flat, but the class is flat now. It's not unemotional - it's lifeless.

It's really just this simple