Who in the developer team designed and tested the Red Mage...

... and how high were they?

I can't wrap my head around the fact that someone designed its abilities, tested the kit, and somehow decided that the thing was comparable in power/utility to the remaining jobs. I mean, really, someone looked at it and said "huh... Looks okay to me".

Probably the same one that designed WAR and was like "Yep, WAR is totally on par with the other tanks when it comes to utility".

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with RDM, it's mostly just their numbers are overtuned for what the rest of their kit offers.
Similarly, I don't think there's anything wrong with WAR by itself (MAYBE a bit too much damage for a tank?), WAR is the baseline of where the other tanks should be at in terms of CC and utility imo. WAR seems strong because the other tanks are weak.

Now WHM? Yeah, that is the one that makes me scratch my head and wonder if their team playtested it. No healer should ever be brought up to that level. Just look at that monstrosity of a LB alone. Did they just run out of things to tack onto an instant cast AOE CC nuke that they had to add in all that regeneration and damage/healing amp to the fastest charging LB? Never mind the rest of their kit (yay, un-cleansable hard CC).

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Originally Posted by jrollins89

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with RDM, it's mostly just their numbers are overtuned for what the rest of their kit offers.
Similarly, I don't think there's anything wrong with WAR by itself (MAYBE a bit too much damage for a tank?), WAR is the baseline of where the other tanks should be at in terms of CC and utility imo. WAR seems strong because the other tanks are weak.

Now WHM? Yeah, that is the one that makes me scratch my head and wonder if their team playtested it. No healer should ever be brought up to that level. Just look at that monstrosity of a LB alone. Did they just run out of things to tack onto an instant cast AOE CC nuke that they had to add in all that regeneration and damage/healing amp to the fastest charging LB? Never mind the rest of their kit (yay, un-cleansable hard CC).

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I agree with you on WHM, but I believe RDM is even worse. Its damage is unmatched. It can take down any melee DPS easily - it's not even a contest. When you get rushed by one, there isn't much you can do except heal yourself nonstop, push guard, and hope the rest of the team helps you before guard is over. That if the RDM doesn't kill you in the duration of its (AOE) silence. The fact that it's damage is so high makes it very hard to outlast its burst even when you're playing defensively, which is not the case with any other job. Meanwhile, it has high mobility, high sustain when needed, AOE damage, AOE buff/debuff... Its uncanny. They fucked up.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

I agree with you on WHM, but I believe RDM is even worse. Its damage is unmatched. It can take down any melee DPS easily - it's not even a contest. When you get rushed by one, there isn't much you can do except heal yourself nonstop, push guard, and hope the rest of the team helps you before guard is over. That if the RDM doesn't kill you in the duration of its (AOE) silence. The fact that it's damage is so high makes it very hard to outlast its burst even when you're playing defensively, which is not the case with any other job. Meanwhile, it has high mobility, high sustain when needed, AOE damage, AOE buff/debuff... Its uncanny. They fucked up.

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WHM is far and away the best job in PVP. RDM is strong but no more stronger than NIN SAM DRG who all offer the same thing really. WAR and WHM however feel ridiculously omnipresent

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

WHM is far and away the best job in PVP. RDM is strong but no more stronger than NIN SAM DRG who all offer the same thing really. WAR and WHM however feel ridiculously omnipresent

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"No more strong?". And you put Dragoon in that list? I am sorry, it is *far* better than the Dragoon and still better than NIN and SAM.

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Originally Posted by jrollins89

WAR is the baseline of where the other tanks should be at in terms of CC and utility imo. WAR seems strong because the other tanks are weak.

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No thanks, then the game will be a permastun fiesta with Purify not working as intended is already bad when I sometimes go from 100% to 0% in stun chains after using purify.

Jobs should have ONE cc usable every 10 seconds or more.

Nah Aoe silence is broken and a mage that goes toe to toe with a sam is insane brah but note I dont hate Rdm just they are definitely stronger then all the mages and still have insane utility

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

"No more strong?". And you put Dragoon in that list? I am sorry, it is *far* better than the Dragoon and still better than NIN and SAM.

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What?! I changed from WAR to DRG and it easily carried me further into the ranks that Job is ridiculous with the stealthy LB... who designed that shit? I never had people see it coming when used during a skirmish, not even every DRG main thinks that shit's balanced. That ridiculous LB always nets at least 1-3 kills and is up rather quick too.

The biggest issue with RDM is that they increase healing and when the enemy team has a RDM, a WHM and a SGE - Dia+ has them all the time - NOTHING dies
It's most broken base comp and beyond unbeatable with +WAR and +DRG

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

The biggest issue with RDM is that they increase healing and when the enemy team has a RDM, a WHM and a SGE - Dia+ has them all the time - NOTHING dies
It's most broken base comp and beyond unbeatable with +WAR and +DRG

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I agree with this one also WHM imp needs a nerf

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

... and how high were they?

I can't wrap my head around the fact that someone designed its abilities, tested the kit, and somehow decided that the thing was comparable in power/utility to the remaining jobs. I mean, really, someone looked at it and said "huh... Looks okay to me".

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Bold of you to assume they did any playtesting at all.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

No thanks, then the game will be a permastun fiesta with Purify not working as intended is already bad when I sometimes go from 100% to 0% in stun chains after using purify.

Jobs should have ONE cc usable every 10 seconds or more.

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That's.... that's exactly how tanks work in about every other game? There is no point in anyone targeting a tank if they deal little damage + have high survivability. They'd just be deadweight until the rest of their team is already dead (See: GNB, DRK). This is usually offset by giving them large amounts of CC. If you want to advocate for Purify being bugfixed, that's fine and justified, but should hold no sway in a job balance discussion.

There is no logically sound reason why DPS should have the same amount of CC as tanks unless they do similar damage (which they should not IMO).

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

I agree with you on WHM, but I believe RDM is even worse. Its damage is unmatched. It can take down any melee DPS easily - it's not even a contest. When you get rushed by one, there isn't much you can do except heal yourself nonstop, push guard, and hope the rest of the team helps you before guard is over. That if the RDM doesn't kill you in the duration of its (AOE) silence. The fact that it's damage is so high makes it very hard to outlast its burst even when you're playing defensively, which is not the case with any other job. Meanwhile, it has high mobility, high sustain when needed, AOE damage, AOE buff/debuff... Its uncanny. They fucked up.

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I 100% believe that RDM is the most overpowered job currently. But like I said, I think it's mostly due to overtuned numbers rather than what's actually in their kit. Put simply, keep the high mobility, keep the buffs/debuffs, neuter it's damage and sustain potencies.

I think there's a good reason why you mostly hear complaints about WHM, DRG, and SAM despite RDM clearly being in a league of it's own; because people feel that there is something fundamentally wrong, that should not exist in those job's kit or need to be dramatically altered. Something that can't be fixed with simple potency changes. I just don't think that's the case with RDM.

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Originally Posted by jrollins89

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with RDM, it's mostly just their numbers are overtuned for what the rest of their kit offers.
Similarly, I don't think there's anything wrong with WAR by itself (MAYBE a bit too much damage for a tank?), WAR is the baseline of where the other tanks should be at in terms of CC and utility imo. WAR seems strong because the other tanks are weak.

Now WHM? Yeah, that is the one that makes me scratch my head and wonder if their team playtested it. No healer should ever be brought up to that level. Just look at that monstrosity of a LB alone. Did they just run out of things to tack onto an instant cast AOE CC nuke that they had to add in all that regeneration and damage/healing amp to the fastest charging LB? Never mind the rest of their kit (yay, un-cleansable hard CC).

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Bit of a disagree. WAR has an aoe stun on a 15s cooldown and that much potential burst (not to be confused with overall damage) along with the second most impactful team fight ability in the game. By pressing a single button you can guarantee 30k damage to everybody near you during the updraft on the winds map. That's so substantial I can't even think of anything funny to say about it. What's more, the reason WHM and WAR and RDM and so on and so forth are so great is that they're not sacrificing anything to use their kit. If you're a GNB, you make hard hard decisions about how you're going to play as your draw is a 30s cooldown. You can't draw from yourself so you can't EVEN be a tank if there aren't any on the enemy team (an occurrence that surprisingly happens more the higher you climb), and you're stuck in whatever decision you make for 30s.

30s is a very long time for a cooldown that affects your basic functionality. That is half the charge time of a WHM LB.
Same for PLD. You have an AoE Slow. But that AoE slow is dependent on not only your meager 12k shield surviving the 5s it needs to pop. But, guaranteeing it's use means you lose one of your only burst preventing abilities for a slow. Contrast with War 15s Aoe STUN.
A stun that will pop purifies across everybody it hits.
Same for AST. Double cast is both clunky (you lose it when doing ANYTHING not just casting spells) and is a decision between middling offense and adequate healing. And unlike WHM 40 RANGE laser beam you need to be in melee range for your LB with one of the lowest health in the game and no escapes on a class in which the rapid actions you need under duress (sprint, purify, recuperate, shield, and activating Macrocosmos) are ALL actions that will cancel the double cast heal you NEED to use in order to survive getting focused.

RDM is the same stuff. Extremely high damage, extremely high survivability, and versatility. Nin has the same versatility and a good NIN piloting is outrageously hard to finally put away. It's very obvious to see what jobs actually had time to be baked out and which ones they didn't. Any job that has to choose between doing their job and surviving doing their job (GNB) is not going to measure well to anybody that can do BOTH at once (WAR). And it's not even that GNB damage is low. It's that when you've junctioned a DPS you deal less burst than a RDM while also paradoxically being squishier than one too. That's insane to me.

RDM kit is alright. After they blow their CD's or if they dive in a 5v5 match, burst them down.

For 1v1 as a DRG, I think DRG overpowers RDM. DRG horrid roar heavily reduces RDM burst combo kit.

RDM is indeed the strongest job by a large margin and then it's WHM.

Honestly. Just focus them in matches.

You might not kill them, but at least you're keeping them away from their primary targets. Any damage or healing you can do, they can triple it, so just go even, don't die and harass them. You'll win a lot more if you go for these types of jobs instead of ignoring them.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

but I believe RDM is even worse. Its damage is unmatched.

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Have you heard of your Lord and Saviour Samurai? Or maybe Dragoon?

I mean... SAM can LB THROUGH guard.

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Originally Posted by MithosYggdrasil

For 1v1 as a DRG, I think DRG overpowers RDM. DRG horrid roar heavily reduces RDM burst combo kit.

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XD DRG can't even 1v1 3 of the 4 other melees and you're suggesting they can overpower the far and beyond strongest duelist in the game right now? 1v1s certainly isn't where the strength of DRG lies and that's perfectly fine.

People keep forgetting that Horrid Roar is de facto only 25% since Geirskogul increases your damage taken by 25%. Corps-a-corps is also a way more powerful dueling tool.

In a 1v1 scenario even with Horrid Roar active, a RDM can simply sit in White Shift and tank the 35-50k the DRG will do with their entire burst combo with 18k shields and a 10k heal and still deal 40~k damage in return. If they simply wait out Horrid Roar with Guard and Displacement, it becomes even more one-sided. Nothing can beat a RDM in a 1v1 and certainly not a DRG.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Have you heard of your Lord and Saviour Samurai? Or maybe Dragoon?

I mean... SAM can LB THROUGH guard.

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A RDM can DoT you for up to 24~k through Guard every 20 seconds while a SAM can usually LB you twice per game. Their entire burst combo in Black Shift deals like 90k unmitigated without LB, this is absolutely higher than anything a DRG or SAM can do in the same amount of time.

EDIT: number adjustments

I think a lot of people sleep on how good RDM is because a lot of DPS are viable. For tanks and healers, only 1 (of each) is really viable, so everyone screams at the top of their lungs to nerf them. Meanwhile RDM just utterly destroys in the hands of someone that really knows how to use it, but it's mixed in there with DRG, SAM, and other DPS that are maybe 70% as good but still powerful enough that RDM can be relatively inconspicuous.

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Originally Posted by jrollins89

That's.... that's exactly how tanks work in about every other game? There is no point in anyone targeting a tank if they deal little damage + have high survivability. They'd just be deadweight until the rest of their team is already dead (See: GNB, DRK). This is usually offset by giving them large amounts of CC. If you want to advocate for Purify being bugfixed, that's fine and justified, but should hold no sway in a job balance discussion.

There is no logically sound reason why DPS should have the same amount of CC as tanks unless they do similar damage (which they should not IMO).



Oh, don't get me wrong. I 100% believe that RDM is the most overpowered job currently. But like I said, I think it's mostly due to overtuned numbers rather than what's actually in their kit. Put simply, keep the high mobility, keep the buffs/debuffs, neuter it's damage and sustain potencies.

I think there's a good reason why you mostly hear complaints about WHM, DRG, and SAM despite RDM clearly being in a league of it's own; because people feel that there is something fundamentally wrong, that should not exist in those job's kit or need to be dramatically altered. Something that can't be fixed with simple potency changes. I just don't think that's the case with RDM.

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GNB are literally paper tanks. They can't handle anything. They're less tanky than a DRG with the geirskogul buff up.
But Tanks primary objective are either 1 to lock down certain dps/healers from performing 2. Holding the crystal to push it forward. Because they're tanky enough to not insta die going to it.
I would probably reduce dps & healers CC & give some to the Tanks, thats an idea i agree with. However there HAS to be diminishing returns. And to make Purify work properly.

RDM is a tough nut tbh. They don't have the same burst potential as other classes & it all comes down to a melee combo, without it they're practically useless.
Their CC is prob most balanced, you either get a root or a silence, not both at once. And you need to use a GCD to change it.
And if you want to change back you need another GCD. They're more of a strong support class more than anything. I mean Drg can kill you in 1 combo.
And Monk with LB which they get pretty fast, can guaranteed kill anyone.
And people tend to duel alot in CC, not many people use their teammates, they just pick a guy, challenge him to a 1v1 & cry because they died.

RDM doesn't lose any duels, but they can't do shit in a 1v2 which many other classes can. They only have 1 aoe besides their LB which does jack shit unless you stand in the middle off it & if they use black magic.

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Originally Posted by Freemind

RDM is a tough nut tbh. They don't have the same burst potential as other classes & it all comes down to a melee combo, without it they're practically useless.
Their CC is prob most balanced, you either get a root or a silence, not both at once.

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I agree with most of your post except this part. RDM has a COLUMN AOE SILENCE/BIND not just a root or silence, meaning even in the 1v2 environment they can manage the battlefield. Not only can they shut you down but they can literally burst you apply dot and then keep themselves sustained with white shift if need be. Their burst is absolutely insane when using displacement and corps a corps correctly and they can stack shields on themselves.

Even if we ignore white shift for self sustain, Frazzle will increase the damage the opponent(s) take by 10% for 10s. Resolution can do 8k in a line with bind/silence. Corps does another 10% damage taken debuff to enemy AND lowers the RDM damage taken from the enemy for 7s. So Frazzle > Corps > Melee combo, displacement which then buffs your magic damage by 20%, at any point before or after this you can bind your target to leave them sitting in one place, even if they use a gap closer on you because your next cast after your melee combo is instant cast so you can bind and move out of range. All without using a single cast time skill.

Your counters are:
1. Guard and hope they're stupid enough to keep using their combo on you (instead of just waiting to unload on you again since both corps and displacement have 2 charges)
2. Attempt to outdps/stun the RDM (in which they have a single purify leading them right back to unloading on you)

I don't know if I'm just missing something or misreading here but they can absolutely delete someone in a 1v2 environment, guard and start it up again immediately after 10s or so after they last combo'd you, and/or swap to white shift after DoT'ing the first target and just outlasting them. That's not to say they're unstoppable in 1v2 but the fact that we even have to bring up 1v2 to talk about RDM balance is kinda hilarious in retrospect. I can't think of a job off the top of my head who CAN safely 1v2 without factoring in LB.

But yes GNB is absolutely the worst class right now I think. BLM and DNC are really its only competition but even DNC and BLM have made me have to actually change my strats. I want to play as GNB and I've tried but I basically just burst them down and move on with my life every time I see one because they're so little of an issue in anything but a perfect scenario lol.

Probably the same team who designed dancer to be so totally impotent in PvP.
Our LB is totally useless and laughed off even without purify and WE DO NO DAMAGE even on our Saber Dance which is a total pain to activate AND has a massively limiting factor too its use.

But lets be real though, the devs who designed the classes are probably warrior or WHM mains and wanted an easy game.

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Originally Posted by Freemind

RDM is a tough nut tbh. They don't have the same burst potential as other classes & it all comes down to a melee combo, without it they're practically useless.
Their CC is prob most balanced, you either get a root or a silence, not both at once. And you need to use a GCD to change it.
And if you want to change back you need another GCD. They're more of a strong support class more than anything. I mean Drg can kill you in 1 combo.
And Monk with LB which they get pretty fast, can guaranteed kill anyone.
And people tend to duel alot in CC, not many people use their teammates, they just pick a guy, challenge him to a 1v1 & cry because they died.

RDM doesn't lose any duels, but they can't do shit in a 1v2 which many other classes can. They only have 1 aoe besides their LB which does jack shit unless you stand in the middle off it & if they use black magic.

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That's a lot of misinformation in a few short sentences.

• They don't have the same burst potential as other jobs, true - they have the absolute strongest non-LB burst potential in the game and that remains true even after today's nerf. Said burst being tied to their melee combo means nothing in the given context.
• Their CC would be balanced if it wasn't AoE in a massive column. You also don't need a GCD to change it, you need one to use it.
• Since you really don't seem to be aware of this, I'll make it an extra point: Black/White Shift is NOT on the GCD, it can be weaved in and changed at any time, even mid-combo.
• A DRGs entire single-target burst combo does like 30% less damage than the full Black Shift combo of a RDM.
• A Monk can LB you once a minute tops and is a nuisance at best without their LB. A RDM can burst you three times for 80k+ each in the same amount of time.
• Saying that RDMs "can't do shit" in a 1v2 is just... yeah, I don't know what to say to this level of ignorance. They can literally AoE bind/silence, reduce the damage of both players if they want, shield and heal themselves for 18k and 10k respectively and still deal about 40k damage while playing defensively or they can just try to 100-0 one of the two in Black Shift while weaving in a few Recuperates. It also helps that their extremely strong DoTs completely ignore Guard if applied before activation.

Amen brother

I literally was getting 3v1 as rdy for my first time actually using them and when I was about to die I healed white stance and tanked them till my team pushed the crystal easy money