LB's are ruining the pvp.

Nothing like being 100% HP and then just dying and not knowing what killed you. Such skill, so much fun....not.

Having LB's in pvp was a mistake.

I don't know how many of the LBs work (I've only really played BLM and RDM and toyed with WHM) but I think the BLM LB, while weaker than the others, is more fun to play and play around than the "damage nuke" or "one shot" LBs.
BLM LB gives you more pressure, you can freeze people faster, burn them faster, and you have basically several smaller nukes. You also have to, you know, play the game to use it right, and the enemy has counterplay of trying to focus/kill you before you can get the most use out of it, compared to a massive damage button that's over in an instant.
I think more LBs should work like that. It would also further incentivize cooperation, since one person using that kind of LB will get focused before he can do much, but if your whole team coordinates to use them around the same time, the enemy has less of a chance.

same thing happened in overwatch, ultis were so game changing that they invalidated skills like positioning, aiming, coordination, micromanagement.

the problem isn't that they exist. it's that they are wildly unbalanced and the best ones are on the already best classes

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Originally Posted by Nihility

the problem isn't that they exist. it's that they are wildly unbalanced and the best ones are on the already best classes

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This is the silliest part yeah. All of the busted jobs have amazing kits even if you disregard limit breaks. That they all got the best lb's as well is wild.

There is nothing wrong with LBs themselves, aside maybe from RPR (but i hold my judgment on that for now since i havent tested that job yet).

On the case with SAM, it is ONLY considered powerful because most Jobs cant prevent the 100% dmg trough guard from happening, and the few that can, often pay as bad of a attention as the people that get the debuff and keep fighting face-first in the first place, and then wonder why they got their teeth kicked out.

Limit Breaks aren't ruining PvP. PvP would be boring as hell without Limit Breaks. Some Limit Breaks need a bit of tuning, but nothing dramatic.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

There is nothing wrong with LBs themselves, aside maybe from RPR (but i hold my judgment on that for now since i havent tested that job yet).

On the case with SAM, it is ONLY considered powerful because most Jobs cant prevent the 100% dmg trough guard from happening, and the few that can, often pay as bad of a attention as the people that get the debuff and keep fighting face-first in the first place, and then wonder why they got their teeth kicked out.

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I would really not downplay how powerful the LB is. It's an instant cast that deals 24k damage, not counting any buff, to the target and everyone in a 5y radius. It goes through guard. So even without the 100% damage mechanic it is already powerful, though not overwhelming.

Then, consider the 100% damage with the Kuzushi debuff. The debuff is applied whenever someone hits you and lasts for three seconds. The buff which applies the debuff lasts for 5 seconds and requires the target to hit you. Well... that is a pretty low bar. Whenever you are fighting a Samurai at close range - and you will fight it at close range since it is a melee which can dash multiple times - it can use Chiten and then right afterwards cast Zantetsuken (which is an instant cast time). Since you two are engaged in combat, you will get the debuff. Nothing to do about that. The only possible way to avoid fatal damage is to dash/jump away or apply cc and run, but that must be done between you getting the debuff and the Samurai casting the LB. That is a very, very short window. And even should you succeed, since it is a 3-second debuff, the Samurai can still dash after you and cast the LB. Moreover, as you pointed out, not every job can do something about it. And, well, if you are in a job that can, it might be on cd.

So the only reliable way to avoid damage is to not hit the samurai when you suspect he has the LB ready and is baiting you to use it. But the Samurai is not exactly a job you can ignore. It has very good damage. Granted, you will not one-shot multiple targets everytime you use it. But one-shotting one is very, very easy. And if you mess up, it is still a 24k instant cast aoe skill that goes through guard.

I really wonder what the devs were thinking when they came up with the Samurai.

I think the dumbest thing is that any kind of interaction with a SAM that has Chiten active will cause you to get the debuff, even applying DoTs or non-damaging CC.

Making the debuff only trigger on single target abilities that actually cause damage would make it much more manageable.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think the dumbest thing is that any kind of interaction with a SAM that has Chiten active will cause you to get the debuff, even applying DoTs or non-damaging CC.

Making the debuff only trigger on single target abilities that actually cause damage would make it much more manageable.

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if you do this it will lead to the inverse, the lb being pointless... that the trouble of balance. but all in all... the solution is super simple and complicate at the same time... stun, polymorph and simply stop attack when chiten is release. since you have no Diminish Return... you can technically stun lock the sam when he drop chiten.

i can understand that it's frustrating to get os by the lb, but like said it ask a setup and when you have a sam in the enemy team the best way to deal with it... is focus the sam and drop him fast for not let him charge the lb. it what people most of the time do to me as SAM and it work perfectly... since a SAM in melee have no real tool for flee...

and personally i fear more a ninja that can chain kill people at -50% hp than a ninja since it can become invisible and attack from ranged. a sam you know he is here and you can technically always see him for focus it. it can be tricky against a ninja.
and even like this i feel the SAM lb is far to be the most op broken LB around... can we talk of the WAR or WHM lb that have multiple effect for one button press? no condition attached, simply press the button en enjoy the multiple effect for free.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Nothing like being 100% HP and then just dying and not knowing what killed you. Such skill, so much fun....not.

Having LB's in pvp was a mistake.

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honestly thanks gods we have the lb, or it will be painfull as pvp experience. some job don't have the tool for be good without the lb and the lb can turn around a situation... it's the goal of a lb after all. (even if some need to be adressed either because too strong or too weak)

Just let people Guard SAM LB like the rest of them :p Having a "everyone has to stop pressing buttons for 5s" button in overtime is very powerful also when most people have tons of AOE especially healers

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Just let people Guard SAM LB like the rest of them :p Having a "everyone has to stop pressing buttons for 5s" button in overtime is very powerful also when most people have tons of AOE especially healers

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why not remove the lb of the sam after all at this point... i means if you can guard the os mechanic what the point of it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

why not remove the lb of the sam after all at this point... i means if you can guard the os mechanic what the point of it.

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Why so many other LB's can be stopped by Guard? Also walking into SGE/SMN AOE with Chiten and automatically killing someone seems annoying when basically when SAM has LB up you can't press certain buttons ever again until they have wasted either Chiten or LB. Also not everyone has Guard up all the time and 24k damage without 1 shotting is a lot when combined with other people's LB. I know it is just "dont hit SAM" but when certain jobs require 20x more effort to play around it is a problem :p

Honestly if Monk didn't have Meteodrive, it'd be the worst class in PvP.
But with it's LB alone, it is less garbage than it currently is if you are unable to keep building up to Phantom Rush in teamfights.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Why so many other LB's can be stopped by Guard? Also walking into SGE/SMN AOE with Chiten and automatically killing someone seems annoying when basically when SAM has LB up you can't press certain buttons ever again until they have wasted either Chiten or LB. Also not everyone has Guard up all the time and 24k damage without 1 shotting is a lot when combined with other people's LB. I know it is just "dont hit SAM" but when certain jobs require 20x more effort to play around it is a problem :p

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for you it don't ask skill to use the sam lb, i love how a lot of people think it's super easy to simply drop chiten and use the lb for kill someone... the trouble is if you play like this you will kill one person at best. it's nice but can be pointless especially if your team is losing the fight.

you say is not normal to ignore guard? what about lb that simply forbidde you to use guard like warrior? the thing is you want simply to ignore the lb of the sam... you want to be able to dps without care drop dot and such... you want the lb of the sam to not be deadly... split... or simply focus the sam for not let him play... if he can't play he will not build up lb.

like i have said, put the guard affecting the os mechanic... is as good than simply remove it. and at this point it's over, the sam will be dead.
another point you say 24k is a lot for a lb but you realize that some other lb out can dish far more than this? dragoon can land a 30k with his lb. smn for the whole duration of the bahamut can deal far more damage than this, warrior can do far more damage in the 15 second of his lb while being unstoppable.
but i digress... all lb are means to be strong and game changer... you don't like to die because of the sam lb be smart.

ps: honestly use the lb for kill one person feel like a loose for me... because it's can have no impact on the match if the other team play well.

While limit breaks, much like everything else right now, need tuning, my real issue with them is how often some jobs have access to them. A limit break should be something you get once, maybe twice a match and have to use judiciously. Being able to access them 3+ times in a regular match is less breaking one's limit and more of an ability with a slightly longer cool down.

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Originally Posted by AlexSag

While limit breaks, much like everything else right now, need tuning, my real issue with them is how often some jobs have access to them. A limit break should be something you get once, maybe twice a match and have to use judiciously. Being able to access them 3+ times in a regular match is less breaking one's limit and more of an ability with a slightly longer cool down.

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That's the issue with some of them. They feel more like 60s cooldowns on some classes than actual LBs.

When I can use my "sometimes pointless" LB on some of my classes, I feel like I get laserbeamed and stunned by WHM every. single. encounter.

Watching SMN BAhamut just delete my party out of nowhere is rough, worse when it happens 2-3 times a single match.

The disparity in not only effectiveness but ease of use is just too great. I have to ground target SGEs which is an absolute chore when you're trying to engage, GNBs might as well not be there half the time, and for some reason I don't feel like RDM does anything? Maybe I'm just using it at the wrong times but I've yet to get a kill from it.

Red mage you need to be in black magic shift for it to do any meaningful damage as it doubles the 6k potency and players have to be within that cross it makes.

I love using my PLDs LB only to still die because of the server delays

I always found "ultimate" type of mechanics to be rather bad. When I played overwatch I strongly suspected that it was a feature created for the sake of streamers, that is, the purpose was to make something visually interesting to break the fight's monotony to make it more enjoyable to watch people playing the game (to the detriment of the people actually playing the game). In overwatch it was definitely NOT a tool to turn situations around, since whichever team was winning was privileged with faster charging ultimates, which they used to maintain the status quo. Like, as soon as you did manage to mount anything vaguely resembling a successful counter attack you'd get curb stomped by ultimates.

People say "we need LB because jobs don't have the necessary tools otherwise" but it's a fallacy: if there was no LB, then the jobs would be balanced around it.

I think LBs are more of a problem in frontlines. I counted 8 Bahamuts that pounced on my alliance all in unison for ~20k damage each

I just don't believe one shot mechanics should exist, especially when there's zero ability to really react to them. Getting one shot by a samurai I didn't even directly attack is just asinine. I've mostly avoided the annoyance by playing BRD, but its still frustrating. Honestly I think DRG is the only legitimate LB for the DPS because you can actually react to it. WHM LB is just....lawl broken.

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Originally Posted by Zied

I think LBs are more of a problem in frontlines. I counted 8 Bahamuts that pounced on my alliance all in unison for ~20k damage each

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I disagree on that. SMN (and somewhat WHM)is now finally THE Job that will finally break this monotone Group Slaughter fir good, where everyone just tries to overpower each other trough numbers, forcing them to actually think and pull off strategies or get obliterated by a handful of SMN.

If anything, we need more People playing SMN in Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Nothing like being 100% HP and then just dying and not knowing what killed you. Such skill, so much fun....not.

Having LB's in pvp was a mistake.

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I don’t know man…

Git gud?

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I don’t know man…

Git gud?

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To un-reactable LB's? Ok sure. How about instead square enix does the correct thing and removes any and all one shot mechanics? Or at the very least make all LB's have an audio queue with a charge time....ya know kinda like how overwatch does it so you can REACT to it.

Honestly, I'm 1 star away from plat 1 and I don't even want to play anymore. The LB's take no thought, effort or skill and WHM's literally get the most broken LB in the game every single engagement. If WHM doesn't get hotfixed/nerfed in the patch Tuesday then SE has shown that they care nothing about pvp and its just going to be this pointlessly broken mode where ranked may as well not be a thing.

I'm honestly not sure why they thought the instakill on SAM's LB was necessary because Chiten already causes a significant vulnerability debuff that would make the LB deal 30K unguardable damage.

The only LB that outputs more AoE damage then that through personal buffs/debuffs is DRG's (Which can do 37.5K under Life of the Dragon but is guardable).

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Originally Posted by Ransu

To un-reactable LB's? Ok sure. How about instead square enix does the correct thing and removes any and all one shot mechanics? Or at the very least make all LB's have an audio queue with a charge time....ya know kinda like how overwatch does it so you can REACT to it.

Honestly, I'm 1 star away from plat 1 and I don't even want to play anymore. The LB's take no thought, effort or skill and WHM's literally get the most broken LB in the game every single engagement. If WHM doesn't get hotfixed/nerfed in the patch Tuesday then SE has shown that they care nothing about pvp and its just going to be this pointlessly broken mode where ranked may as well not be a thing.

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If Square wants to keep LB's in PvP they need an audio and visual effect to showcase them being used otherwise they will remain annoying as you cannot always pay attention to the entire enemy teams LB bars 24/7

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Nothing like being 100% HP and then just dying and not knowing what killed you. Such skill, so much fun....not.

Having LB's in pvp was a mistake.

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I want to point out that originally in PVP, the jobs had no unique LBs. all DPS had basically braver, tanks had damage reduciton and healars had well healing. I believe they added unique LBs into to pvp for each job to make them unique and stand out. IF they didnt have a LB in pvp ti be jsut a who can out button mash the opponent. A well timed LB can turn the tides of a fight

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm honestly not sure why they thought the instakill on SAM's LB was necessary because Chiten already causes a significant vulnerability debuff that would make the LB deal 30K unguardable damage.

The only LB that outputs more AoE damage then that through personal buffs/debuffs is DRG's (Which can do 37.5K under Life of the Dragon but is guardable).

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I think they did that because if you could guard samurai's LB it would be the most useless LB in pvp. Its basically a do or die limit break. you either kill the opponent with a well timed ult, or you made a fatal error and die. Why the one shot has to be used when chiten is on the enemy. But 99% of the enemies will be smart and see a samurai using chiten and jsut ignore them or use a miracle of nature to hard counter a samurai.

I have to agree with your point. Not only that samurai LB isn't as instant as some p eople realize. You can stun a samurai during theri LB start up when they go into their Iaido stance. You can miracle of nature a samurai and cancel their LB. I have had some smart and faced a lot of good WHM who can tell when to use thier miracle of nature to hard cancel a LB naimation, or to save a team mate

So I heard whm ambushed brd one night, dragged it in an alley, took its lb, and gave it a rag to shine shoes. No, I’m serious, brd no longer has an lb. Think about it. Whm gets a WW3 global hyper cannon while brd…regens gauge some of you don’t need. Isn’t that backwards?

And Sam lb? Cheap as fudge. But in sam’s defense….that’s all they have now. Compared to what chiten USED to be able to do with bloodbath and -50% dmg AND counters AND shinten spam, draining ALL of that back in a dual? It’s a laughable joke now. With no enpi, Sam is a poor man’s mnk outside its lb. Can’t even backlash. So let them have their lb lol. (Yes, I’m triggered..I loved Sam.)

If you get hit with drg’s “I’m coming down sometime next year) lb, you deserve to have your whole party poofed. The telegraph is HORRIBLE. Makes a specific sound, shiny circle n the floor, 10 years to guard.

I’ll tell you where it’s at though. Rdm and blm. Rdm MAY have the best lb hands down. 0 telegraph, hard aoe hits, or can heal. Super tactical. And blm….blm just…feels so good to nuke the everloving POOP outta people. Hp just melts off, because 95% of pvpers don’t understand the advanced concept of ‘kill the squishy first.”

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I want to point out that originally in PVP, the jobs had no unique LBs. all DPS had basically braver, tanks had damage reduciton and healars had well healing. I believe they added unique LBs into to pvp for each job to make them unique and stand out. IF they didnt have a LB in pvp ti be jsut a who can out button mash the opponent. A well timed LB can turn the tides of a fight

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Ransu would've been around for that. Don't know if he preferred them though.

Samurai is just a cheese slicer with zantetsuken. You need to look at the blue counter symbol that pops up on them. Other than that, nothing really 1-shot worthy comes to mind.
Reapers/warriors have an lb that renders Shields useless and if someone plunges in, then yeah, you're in for a bad time.
It's hard to know exactly what you mean but it takes a little practice to read the field and sometimes you can be doing the right thing. Your alliance just feels powerful pounding on the team with 30pnts for half the match lol.

I have had a good samurai bait hte enemy team into ignoring them but they still use their LB for damage htrough guard. If anything an amazing samurai will not rely on their debuff

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Nothing like being 100% HP and then just dying and not knowing what killed you. Such skill, so much fun....not.

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If you compare to other games with teamfight, LBs are like the ultimate skills in League of Legend. But, instead of that game, your "farm" doesn't change anything. Without them, all of the teamfight would be boring.

I agree that LBs are not well balanced, like all the jobs, but, what you said here => Dying and not knowing what killed you. In 2 words, i'd answer : Get good. But more seriously, your comment makes me feel that you are new to PVP. Start by learning the LBs and what they do. Go read on all job. The only LB that will one shot you requiere, yes, indeed a bit of skills because you need to setup it. It's the SAM zantetsuken. It's easy to cheeze and avoid, but, if you don't have any clue of what is going on and attack him when he do have his buff on, then yes, you'll get one shot. Oh, and you know, that barrier spell? It works on many of the LBs. Not every lb of course, again, go read what every jobs does, but yeah, that's also skills, being able to avoid an LB.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I have had a good samurai bait hte enemy team into ignoring them but they still use their LB for damage htrough guard. If anything an amazing samurai will not rely on their debuff

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Originally Posted by AlliciaCapulet

If you compare to other games with teamfight, LBs are like the ultimate skills in League of Legend. But, instead of that game, your "farm" doesn't change anything. Without them, all of the teamfight would be boring.

I agree that LBs are not well balanced, like all the jobs, but, what you said here => Dying and not knowing what killed you. In 2 words, i'd answer : Get good. But more seriously, your comment makes me feel that you are new to PVP. Start by learning the LBs and what they do. Go read on all job. The only LB that will one shot you requiere, yes, indeed a bit of skills because you need to setup it. It's the SAM zantetsuken. It's easy to cheeze and avoid, but, if you don't have any clue of what is going on and attack him when he do have his buff on, then yes, you'll get one shot. Oh, and you know, that barrier spell? It works on many of the LBs. Not every lb of course, again, go read what every jobs does, but yeah, that's also skills, being able to avoid an LB.

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...this thread is from 2022. Please check the date in the brown bar. You are responding to a thought of the long past.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

There is nothing wrong with LBs themselves, aside maybe from RPR (but i hold my judgment on that for now since i havent tested that job yet).

On the case with SAM, it is ONLY considered powerful because most Jobs cant prevent the 100% dmg trough guard from happening, and the few that can, often pay as bad of a attention as the people that get the debuff and keep fighting face-first in the first place, and then wonder why they got their teeth kicked out.

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SAM LB is easy to counter. Most, if not all jobs have some form of shielding that will take you above max HP. If a SAM hits you when you're above max HP, you will survive.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

SAM LB is easy to counter. Most, if not all jobs have some form of shielding that will take you above max HP. If a SAM hits you when you're above max HP, you will survive.

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Read above.

Use them yourself...

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...this thread is from 2022. Please check the date in the brown bar. You are responding to a thought of the long past.

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its a forum that is still open. If you don't like people are using teh forums for thie rpurpose then why be on them at all?