We are approaching a button bloat problem that can be solved

So I am not sure people noticed but we are up to patch 6.1 and are on the 4th expansion and up to level 90. Square Enix already realized we had a power problem when attacks were hitting far above 100,000.

Now as we trudge along to 7.0 the obvious next issue is going to be button bloat. Other MMO's have added more shiny buttons to press and WoW has tried borrowed power, pruning and revamped their talents so many times you cannot even count anymore leading to massive balance issues.

For 7.0 I think Square Enix has 2 options. Continue the approach of replacing existing attacks with new attacks that change as you hit X level.

Another option not considered is purely cosmetic changes. The Shadowbringers story allows for this because of the Aetherical changes that can occur when you absorb too much of one element.

What if we had Eureka type options that could imbue our attacks with different elements?

Just a thought as we move on through the expansion.

I truly don’t get why Square Enix hasn’t changed more 1-2-3 combos to share single buttons; they already had that in older PvP job design, and Gunbreaker already had this quality-of-life update with regards to a higher-level combo that’s done with Continuation, so why stop there? Seems a lot better than removing entire actions like a certain Samurai action that lots of players liked to use.

i'd love 1-2-3 combos and conditional buttons to be consolidated, as long as they give me more interesting and unique abilities in their place, think that'd be a happy medium

I don't like the combined 1-2-3 button.
Even in PvP I slot 3 of those combo buttons so I can still manually press the 1, 2 ,3 keys.

I'm perfectly fine with skills that have a second prog (Like RPR's Shroud abilities or the DRK's Salter Earth) to change into the second prog.
But leave the 1-2-3 rotations as they are.
I'd hate to press 1 single key over and over while other skills are still on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I don't like the combined 1-2-3 button.
Even in PvP I slot 3 of those combo buttons so I can still manually press the 1, 2 ,3 keys.

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well that means both ends can have their preference, not everyone has the same amount of comfortable keybinds they can allocate to a job, so consolidating unnecessary bloat is intrinsically a good idea, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of actual gameplay like Kaiten's removal removing Kenki management entirely

i think the reason jobs get button bloated is because a lot of skills do one thing and one thing only. wether its just a damaging ogcd or just an aoe heal, the more they add things with a singular purpose and no internal synergy the more the jobs are gonna feel bloated if they try to give jobs new functions.


i am NOT a fan of removing a skill and adding it back a shiny "new" skill 10 levels later. it makes low level play feel awful and it doesn't add anything to the job.

instead I think traits are the way to go, and maybe merging skills together to have skills that do more than just 1 thing. for instance, the lv 78 trait for sacred soil added 0 skills but it gave a lot more depth of gameplay to scholar and it essentially made sacred soil have a new use. instead of discarding divine seal largesse and making it temperance, a trait that added mitigation + a new animation would've been so much better.

as for making room for the new, i believe merging is also a better answer than deleting. one of the very few decent things shb did for scholar was merging fey covenant with fey illumination. sure, its more restrictive to have them tied together, but its still preferable than straight up losing either.

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

well that means both ends can have their preference, not everyone has the same amount of comfortable keybinds they can allocate to a job, so consolidating unnecessary bloat is intrinsically a good idea, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of actual gameplay like Kaiten's removal removing Kenki management entirely

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It's sad when characteristic skills get removed, yeah.
I still miss the dot the DRK once had.
The animation was also sweet.
So, yeah. It's not that we're approaching a button bloat for the first time.
We've had skill purges before to ease the bloat.

i think along the lines of stuff like the recent change to wanderers minuette when i think of consolidation, minus the bug causing other bards to set it off, ofc

since pitch perfect is only usable while Wanderers is active anyways, i think it's a great idea to just have it replace it, since there's no reason to ever press pitch perfect otherwise

How you people have absurdly disgusting filled rows confuses me. Mines clean, takes up 2.5 and that's for a FULL ROTATION on ALL my classes. And yes. I raid.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I truly don’t get why Square Enix hasn’t changed more 1-2-3 combos to share single buttons; they already had that in older PvP job design, and Gunbreaker already had this quality-of-life update with regards to a higher-level combo that’s done with Continuation, so why stop there? Seems a lot better than removing entire actions like a certain Samurai action that lots of players liked to use.

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My guess, but they don't do it cuz it is not the time now. I think they have a certain number of button in mind, which has not yet reached in 6.0. Maybe in 7.0 or 8.0, they will do it when more buttons will be added.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I truly don’t get why Square Enix hasn’t changed more 1-2-3 combos to share single buttons; they already had that in older PvP job design, and Gunbreaker already had this quality-of-life update with regards to a higher-level combo that’s done with Continuation, so why stop there? Seems a lot better than removing entire actions like a certain Samurai action that lots of players liked to use.

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While a solution to most jobs, MNK would be the outliner here because their rotation isn't a standard 1-2-3 combo and then we throw in Perfect Balance and there's no hope of a compression system works with them, at least not without another rework.

Er... we've "been approaching" button bloat for the past 3 expansions, and every single time they delete a few moves to make room for new ones.
Nothing is going to change.

I'm fairly certain they have an internally defined limit to how many hotkeys each job should have, and actively prune abilities to stay within that limit.

1-2-3 combos and the general number of skills are a core part of the games gameplay feel for me. I'd rather not see jobs go the way of healers and end up spamming 1 button 90% of the time.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I truly don’t get why Square Enix hasn’t changed more 1-2-3 combos to share single buttons; they already had that in older PvP job design, and Gunbreaker already had this quality-of-life update with regards to a higher-level combo that’s done with Continuation, so why stop there? Seems a lot better than removing entire actions like a certain Samurai action that lots of players liked to use.

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Because it would only apply to a handful of jobs that don't all need it.

Tanks: Usually have mitigation effects and gauge generation tied to them that you want to keep track of. For example, hitting 1-2-[gauge spender]-3 to avoid overcapping. They also have few DPS skills anyway, so they don't generally want to lose them, otherwise they'd end up like Healers spamming the same button 90% of the time.

Monk: Literally cannot condense it's skills as it has a 'free form' function where you can hit any skill you like out of order. Needs all weaponskills available as separate buttons to achieve this.

Ninja: Heavy burst phase, outside of that burst it only has the 1-2-3 to keep it busy, see Tanks/Healers.

Casters: no combos

Phys ranged: Each have a unique combo system that actually make them unique to play. Machinist being the most straightforward, but then runs into the same issue as Ninja/Tanks/Healers.

Dragoon: Has a very long combo system that you need to keep track of, and already condenses a few of it's less situational buttons. If you condense this even more you'd need to remove effects like Disembowel and Chaos Thrust, instead spreading that dps across the entire combo, and remove positionals, as you can't be sure what skill you're going to hit next unless you're constantly counting in your head. At that point, you may as well just have a single button to spam in between Jumps.

Samurai: conditional combo trees, could potentially be reduced to 3 buttons, but again like the Tank issue of generating gauge with the combo finishers, and the Dragoon issue of apply buffs on the 2's, you'd need to be very careful of what button you're hitting when, and constantly watching your hotbars. I don't see this being viable either.

Reaper: 1-2-3 skills are all functionally identical besides their potency. Hooray! This one can be easily condensed to a single button.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Casters: no combos

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Red Mage /10char

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Red Mage /10char

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Those aren't combo's, that's a proc system.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

So I am not sure people noticed

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That's hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Those aren't combo's, that's a proc system.

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E.Riposte, E.Zwerchhau and E.Redoublement would like a word with you.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

E.Riposte, E.Zwerchhau and E.Redoublement would like a word with you.

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Oh that, yeah that could be condensed. Didn't even occur to me because it's a burst skill.
However, you then only have two melee skills for RDM, that I'm sure RDM players will complain about.

Eventually our bars will be as bare as the pvp ones and folks will complain about simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I don't like the combined 1-2-3 button.
Even in PvP I slot 3 of those combo buttons so I can still manually press the 1, 2 ,3 keys.

I'm perfectly fine with skills that have a second prog (Like RPR's Shroud abilities or the DRK's Salter Earth) to change into the second prog.
But leave the 1-2-3 rotations as they are.
I'd hate to press 1 single key over and over while other skills are still on cooldown.

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My biggest concern with merging the basic combo into one button is the lack of choice when it comes to your attacks. Sure, you hit 1, 2, 3.

But often times the middle ability offers either a heal or MP or something.

In the case of the Paladin for example, if my team is struggling or half dead and I need to enter a survival mode, hitting 1, 2, 1, 2 over and over gives me a lot more extra MP that I can then use to heal myself. Once topped up I can go back to the standard rotation and start focusing on damage again until I need to heal and regen MP again.

Consolidating that combo into one button takes that option away entirely. Whether or not people think MP generation survival mode is dumb or cleverer is irrelevant. Simply talking away the option because you don't like pressing buttons isn't the best course of action.

You think you want it...

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I don't like the combined 1-2-3 button.
Even in PvP I slot 3 of those combo buttons so I can still manually press the 1, 2 ,3 keys.

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I mean, I'll admit that I share your general dislike of combos cycling through keys -- hitting three separate keys for the Gnashing Fang chain (with one oGCD between each) felt more satisfying to me than alternating one GCD and one oGCD on the same two keys three times -- since it basically feels like what I do as a healer main ANYWAY (hitting one button for my primary attack over and over and over and over and over). And for some jobs which have branching combo chains -- SAM and DRG in particular, but I feel like there might also be issues with PLD, NIN, etc. -- it obviously doesn't work.

But on the other hand, there are some jobs where I'm down to only one or two free spaces on a three-hotbar layout. And if the options are a choice between:

1. We get maybe one new action per expansion, otherwise just an upgrade of an existing action or two via a trait. (Which seems to be the current solution, at least when jobs don't get an overhaul.)
2. We get actions pruned entirely to make room for new ones, allowing new variety and play, but also making the jobs feel even more terrible whenever you're level-synced down. (Which has been done in the past, as you yourself acknowledge in a later post.)
3. We get existing action chains condensed down to a PvP-style combo button, thus making room for more new actions in a given expansion but also keeping existing ones. (And not further neutering the jobs at low levels.)

...I think I might actually prefer option 3. (Failing that, I pray they stick with option 1 rather than option 2.)

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

just be a clicker like me 5head(unironically play savage doing this)

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https://i.giphy.com/media/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.webp

(I legit don't know how people can do that. Respect to those who can; I would not be one.)

There is no button bloat. Stop trying to make the game boring.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

(I legit don't know how people can do that. Respect to those who can; I would not be one.)

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There are dozens of us! Dozens!

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Originally Posted by KuroMaboroshi

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

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https://c.tenor.com/AIZW6449Tp8AAAAC...-crit-role.gif

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There is no button bloat. Stop trying to make the game boring.

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Ast having 2 seperate draw and play cards disagrees

button bloat doesn't mean "too many buttons" it's "Buttons that really don't need to be seperate" and there are PLENTY of those in this game that could be consolidated to make way for more interesting abilities

if they just choose to remove them/lower them and add nothing to return, sure, your argument has merit

123 is not button bloat you're just lazy

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Originally Posted by anhaato

123 is not button bloat you're just lazy

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It's not button bloat, per se, but the game developers demonstrably want to keep the number of actions per job to a certain maximum number -- which honestly makes sense, given that the game needs to retain controller support -- and if the option is "remove actions to make space for new ones, leaving the job even more sparse at low levels", "don't make new actions in an expansion and just upgrade existing ones via trait", or "combine some actions into single actions that change based on combat state", I know I'd prefer the last option.

And there are plenty of examples where they can. For instance, it's not really necessary for Draw and Play to be two separate buttons for AST, as has been pointed out; you cannot Play unless you've used Draw to get a card, and there is almost no scenario in which you're going to deliberately want to Draw a new card when you already have one out. (After all, even a card that's not optimal is still a DPS gain if played on someone, so why throw it away?) If they need to make space for a new action on AST in the future, combining those two into one action (that turns into Play once you have a card out, and back into Draw once you've played the card) would be an excellent place to do so. Reaper's various states already do this sort of thing with a number of attacks, as does ninja with mudras when you hit Ten-Chi-Jin.

And SGE provides an interesting example of a different consolidation approach with Eukrasia; instead of a single-target DPS spell and a single-target DoT, plus raw and shielded single-target and AoE heals, Eukrasia just switches between the two modes. Thus, you put six potential actions onto four buttons: Dosis/E. Dosis, Diagnosis/E. Diagnosis, Prognosis/E. Prognosis, and Eukrasia itself.

I'd personally prefer the base 1-2-3 DPS sequences not be combined, for a variety of reasons (though would prefer it to actions being stripped out entirely to make room for new ones); as noted above, I don't find the new combo'd Gnashing Fang chain nearly as satisfying on Gunbreaker, and it would be even more annoying with the primary DPS rotation. I'm a healer main, I already get enough "hit one button repeatedly for DPS" from that, thanks.

But most jobs still have at least some things that could be combined a'la Draw and Play, if there's a need to free up action space for new actions in the future.

It seems SE would rather remove an action to free up space, than to go with the PvP solution. Glad there's third-party solution to this, except the part where they remove the skill because they think it is pointless and its existence contribute to the 'button bloat' issue.

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Originally Posted by Lecru

How you people have absurdly disgusting filled rows confuses me. Mines clean, takes up 2.5 and that's for a FULL ROTATION on ALL my classes. And yes. I raid.

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We get it! You raid!

MORE REMOVED SKILLS!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHA
appropriate considering the reaction to button stacking like PVP

Instead of removing abilities that cost them part of their budget with animators spending a good amount of time to animate the animations, it is better to consolidate these combos. I dislike 1-2-3 on DRK, I prefered the days of 1-2-3-4-5, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Now as we trudge along to 7.0 the obvious next issue is going to be button bloat.

For 7.0 I think Square Enix has 2 options. Continue the approach of replacing existing attacks with new attacks that change as you hit X level.

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It's because of this and pruning things at lower levels that there isn't a button bloat issue already and why there won't be one in the future either.

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What if we had Eureka type options that could imbue our attacks with different elements?

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Imbuing attacks with elements would be interesting but it would interfere with the fantasy of classes that aren't magic. The game would probably spoil which enemies are weak against certain elements like Eureka does and that would make it boring. If it didn't spoil which enemies were weak to them then new or casual players would just do less damage and then you might end up with a situation like DR where it causes everything to take longer.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

i think the reason jobs get button bloated is because a lot of skills do one thing and one thing only. wether its just a damaging ogcd or just an aoe heal, the more they add things with a singular purpose and no internal synergy the more the jobs are gonna feel bloated if they try to give jobs new functions.


i am NOT a fan of removing a skill and adding it back a shiny "new" skill 10 levels later. it makes low level play feel awful and it doesn't add anything to the job.

instead I think traits are the way to go, and maybe merging skills together to have skills that do more than just 1 thing. for instance, the lv 78 trait for sacred soil added 0 skills but it gave a lot more depth of gameplay to scholar and it essentially made sacred soil have a new use. instead of discarding divine seal largesse and making it temperance, a trait that added mitigation + a new animation would've been so much better.

as for making room for the new, i believe merging is also a better answer than deleting. one of the very few decent things shb did for scholar was merging fey covenant with fey illumination. sure, its more restrictive to have them tied together, but its still preferable than straight up losing either.

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We also suffer the fact that we have a lot of skills that do the same thing.
Most of healers skill set are like multiple flavors of shields, regens and
potency ups left and right. Us healers could actually have a good portion of our
skills removed and replace them with some DPS skills and consolidate others.
I know not every healer wants to be like a "Support DPS" but that's what I'm rooting for at this point.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

We also suffer the fact that we have a lot of skills that do the same thing.
Most of healers skill set are like multiple flavors of shields, regens and
potency ups left and right. Us healers could actually have a good portion of our
skills removed and replace them with some DPS skills and consolidate others.
I know not every healer wants to be like a "Support DPS" but that's what I'm rooting for at this point.

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Since we press 1 like 80% of the time in a fight I don't see why giving us a simple dps rotation is going to be an issue.

If SE was actually concerened about "button bloat" they would stop adding those completely pointless 120s CD abilities that require a proc from another 120s CD ability that only lasts 30 seconds as separate buttons. This is the new trend like charges were in ShB. "Can only be executed while under the effect of X Ready" is atrocious design. Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri. Arcane Circle > Plentiful Harvest. Flourish > Fan Dance IV. Devilment > Starfall Dance. This. Garbage. Needs. To. Stop. Either give us a good reason to have those long CD abilites we press 4-5 times per encounter as separate buttons or stop making them separate buttons.

The second problem are complete duplicate ST/AoE abilties. We already have a solution. Make them a singular ability with fall off. They already do it for some jobs. Just apply it everywhere.

SAM is unironically the best example of how shortsighted their vision is. Ogi Namikiri has no reason to exist. They could have just made Ikishoten turn into it. Or just gave Ikishoten potency and called it a day. Or replaced Ikishoten with Ogi and made Ogi give 50 Kenki. Shoha & Shoha II and Guren & Senei eat bar space for absolutely no reason. Once again a button you will only press a few times per an entire dungeon takes a permanent slot on your bar. But which "solution" did they come up with? Remove Kaiten.

What SHOULD happen is AoE kits should go away. That would make for much better gameplay.

Either, give people a stance that makes their single target rotation cleave and hit multiple enemies, or just make all single target attacks cleave. Make it so that the single target rotation is the only rotation and get rid of the anemic, boring AoE rotations (This also allows you to play around with focus targets in packs more since damage fall-off abilities deal more damage to your target).

For healers, keep the 3 attacks and have their stance only affect heals.

SAM's button bloat would have been easily improved by:


Have Shoha upgrade to Shoha II with a high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Shinten and Kyuten into 1 ability with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Guren and Senei into a single attack with high potency plus AE fall-off damage



Alternatively, make it so the AE versions can't be placed on your hotbar and the "AE stance" replaces the ST version with the AE version (if people feel like they "need" to have control over that for some reason)

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Originally Posted by Azuri

If SE was actually concerened about "button bloat" they would stop adding those completely pointless 120s CD abilities that require a proc from another 120s CD ability that only lasts 30 seconds as separate buttons. This is the new trend like charges were in ShB. "Can only be executed while under the effect of X Ready" is atrocious design. Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri. Arcane Circle > Plentiful Harvest. Flourish > Fan Dance IV. Devilment > Starfall Dance. This. Garbage. Needs. To. Stop. Either give us a good reason to have those long CD abilites we press 4-5 times per encounter as separate buttons or stop making them separate buttons.

The second problem are complete duplicate ST/AoE abilties. We already have a solution. Make them a singular ability with fall off. They already do it for some jobs. Just apply it everywhere.

SAM is unironically the best example of how shortsighted their vision is. Ogi Namikiri has no reason to exist. They could have just made Ikishoten turn into it. Or just gave Ikishoten potency and called it a day. Or replaced Ikishoten with Ogi and made Ogi give 50 Kenki. Shoha & Shoha II and Guren & Senei eat bar space for absolutely no reason. Once again a button you will only press a few times per an entire dungeon takes a permanent slot on your bar. But which "solution" did they come up with? Remove Kaiten.

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This. This entire post. I have nothing to add to it. But I really want SE to see it and read it.