All these "EG" things.
Longer delays between entries. We can do all this "EG" stuff as fast/often as we want cause we asked for it, they gave us SHITE drop rates in exchange. Longer entry delays, a "reasonable" currency/exchange rate, no not old Dyna pacing of 2 runs/week @20 currency/run needing 15k currency for completetion, that was excessive. Find the happy medium.
Something like 1 run tag every 12hrs stacked to 3 for each "content" so that you can, like in nyzul, choose to go every day, or go a few times every few days. I think is a far better system for the "casual" and "hardcore" (such BS terms) alike.
Everyone that's willing to put in some time will get stuff eventually, it's fair, it's scalable so that you can't get the "best" gear in a week, that "God Body" needs 5k AV coins @an avg. of 30 coins per run, so to get it your saving through 300+ runs @2runs/day, but the "mid grade body" is 2k so yeah if you want something nowish grab the "low grade body" for 500.
Add to that having more than 1 of each piece at each grade, so DRG has 4 diff hi grade, 4 diff mid grade, 4 diff low grade, etc. content guarantees rewards over time, is scalable, stays worth going to because even if you don't get the random "defender's ring" from the "shadow lord" then at least your progressing to something.
Even farming pops and doing T1 NMs for Sea/Sky you got drops, and a crazy hi rate, so there was always some reward for the time put in.
Garuda is a step in a good direction, now if they'd fix the rate on Ifrit I'd actually have a weapon.
Why not this.
Printable View
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05-18-2012, 11:25 PMEnfariousWhy not this.
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05-18-2012, 11:33 PMChardrizard
Yes. I didnt understand anything but i think your idea is good!!
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05-18-2012, 11:44 PMElexia
Made perfect sense.
-Introduce higher lockout timers on end-game content (yes yes, casuals will bitch blah blah.)
-Garuda having 100% drop rate on it's 'currency' is a right step in terms of primal fights since if you beat it you'll be making progress regardless of not getting a weapon.
-Introduce a currency/exchange point system like Assault/Einherjar/Nyzul.
That's the gist of it. Even WoW has higher refresh timers on content, people complain about low drop rates yet ignore the fact you can live in dungeons in this game and they logically can't give you the gear at a high % drop. -
05-19-2012, 01:03 PMRyans
What we need is some spammable content and some locked content. Things like primal fights should be the spammable things in my opinion. One fight and done. Whereas there should be more extensive content, like dungeons, with multiple bosses and last longer than an hour with a lock out timer.
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05-19-2012, 01:19 PMChickNorris
What we need are people responsible for their experiences.
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05-19-2012, 01:37 PMViritess
We could also use a more obvious title. But since this is a Item drop rate/Boss loot/Token Discussion, i happily repost like i do every time a new thread comes up on this topic (like the one that started a few days ago), Enjoy:
If i may i think the RNG loot drop for specific items is old news. If i may here is a type of system i prefer so i'll repost it. (fair warning when i give constructive posts threads die
As cool as it is to get the weapon drop from the boss. with the armory system the way it is and folks getting say x amount of swords in a row before they ever see say the Lance they actually want i really wonder if there is an optimal system.
So i'll throw my suggestion out there!
Instead of the full weapon being dropped, drop a universal base item, lets call it Ifrit's Molten Horn.
So you beat down Ifrit, and the Molten horn drops and you get it. Awesome, now what?
Behind Ifrit theres some sort of ather filled molten pool. take the Molten Hron to the pool, and choose your desired weapon. Say you want a lance. Horn plus pool equals the lance you chose.
(you now have a system where folks are still going for a drop rate. but atleast they can be rewarded the first time with the weapon they really wanted!)
Now as an optional part of this system. Have drop rate "success" measure per person. For every Molten Horn you've gotten your drop rate chance lowers by a perdetermined percentage. (To a set minimum. dont want folks ending up with a 0.0000001 drop rate. that would be aweful)
If we throw out a number say No horns recived and transformed = 30% you could take 3% off your chance. so by the time your going for the 7th weapon (currently 7 DOW/DOM classes) your at round 9% chance. (Also with being able to make materia out of Moogle and ifrit items might have to stick with Horns recived with a set minimum drop rate)
What this accomplishes: Folks who are only running Ifrit for 1 class'es weapon don't have to spend as many runs to get it as those who want all 7. But it also means you have to descide which you want most and least and how many times your willing to run for how many Classes.
Depending on the starting % (no weapons) and the ending percentage (6 weapons?) owned you might be able to drop the token system and not have to worry about 2 Drop rates to balance.
This way you get more of a Scaled reward system by how many runs you want to do vs how many weapons you want.
Those who want all will run it more. those who want one or two for their favorite classes can run a bit less. And everyone atleast gets the one they wanted in the first place!
Honestly, we all have a favorite class we want our best stuff for. would be nice to choose on the spot instead of Your buddy wants a sword, you want a lance, and you get a sword you didnt want. now your semi disappointed and so is your buddy. that isnt the feeling anyone should have when you take down a big bad boss.
What you want after downing any big boss is either "Darn maybe next time" or " Yes i got (Can get) something i always wanted!"
Thats how i feel. Let us make smart choices with a base reward we can change into what we REALLY went there for in the first place! (Not to mention if folks get a reward they wanted i belive they would be more likely to run it again with some other people, because they will remember a more positive or neutral feeling as apposed to varied negative feelings and then a positive one here and there. -
05-19-2012, 02:00 PMAnaviAnael
What we need is JUMBO CACTUAR!
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05-19-2012, 04:35 PMDenmoI'm casual, and you wouldn't see me bitching about that. I'd just work it into my casual schedule. OH look, I only planned on playing Garuda 2-3 times this week! Looks like this is no problem for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
What's that? You want to play Garuda 50 times this week? Too bad, Mr. Hardcore. Lockout timers~
;) -
05-19-2012, 05:47 PMViritess
I really have no issues with folks wanted to do content as often as they want, i think Drop rate really needs to be on a sliding scale, especially in this game where you can be many classes.
I really think its best setup mechanics that allow the players more choice in their rewards for their first drop along with good odds, and then slide the drop rate down as you get your drops. Want a lance first, get a high droprate for the lance.
Want weapon number 7 of 7, much lower drop rate. Completionists get the fuzzy feeling of having all 7 weapons. And people who just don't have the time can atleast get something for their favorite class more easily.
Personalized Drop rates on a sliding scale will help ensure that people can still play/fight/and raid fairly often even if we kept the current timers. While still allowing better odds and a more rewarding experience.
I can't help wonder why a conversation about Raids and drops always has to have only 2 answers. As if theres no other way then the same way its been done hundreds of times.
Multi day lockouts are no fun, especially if your practicing with new LS members, or trying new things. When your have a large group of people on lockout theres even less going on. If people want to run something many many times i encourage them to do so, and would hate to force them not to.
But at the same time Static Drop rates are hardly fun either, especially without the ability to trade/swap/choose what your after in the first place. No one wants duplicates they can't keep or sell. No one wants a weapon for a class they dislike more then the class they love.
As i suggested earlier in the thread i truely belive the best route for FF14, with the armory system as it is/will be, Is to design a Character centered, Sliding scale (diminishing returns so to speak) Droprate. The drop being a a Transitional item that can be Turned in/crafted/or altered on the spot to the weapon of your choice.
Two sides can argue at eachother till their blue in the face (fingers?), but untill we find middleground nothing will change, including the arguments, name calling and dissatisfaction. -
05-19-2012, 08:37 PMKiriA500...what...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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05-19-2012, 09:45 PMColinoI'm with you. My brain just goes to poop if there aren't enough paragraphs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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05-19-2012, 10:06 PMEnfarious
Cause I wrote it somewhere else, and because it goes to the general principle of all the change vs. don't change crap.
Sometime someone has to realize that allowing yourself 16hrs a day 7 days a week to play, then complaining when you complete 100 hours worth of content in a week isn't the "casual(still BS term)" players fault. The majority of players, from what I've seen after 10 years of MMOs aren't the 12hrs+ everyday types, those are the minority, suiting the minority by requiring 100hrs to get 1 drop, will eventually drive away those with jobs/school/family that can't play all those hours. If SE is going to accomplish anything remotely close to making all the content accessible to everyone they need to find a way to allow players w/ less time to still get things while not making everything too easy to get.
The suggested per person per "content" drop rate with decreasing returns for each successive drop is one decent way to do this. A point system is another decent way, a point system where is purchase increases the price scales it even further. Both give players with less time a chance to get things they'd like w/o needing years, and those that spend more time will get multiple things with each taking a bit longer than the last. If to get that 7th weapon takes some 300 runs there will be plenty of people that just can't/won't invest that kind of time. Allowing the first to be acquired after as few as 1~10 run so that the first time you win you feel just that much more rewarded but know that each successice drop will take 10 more attempts than the last to get so drop 2 @10~20, 3@ 20~30, 4@ 30~40, 5@40~50 ... assuming you go for 4 weapons and get lucky enough to have them drop at the low end of the rate 1+10+20+30 = 61 runs for those 4, getting the last 3 131+ runs, again players with time to sink in get more players w/ less time will move on.
Stop claiming everything in the game is "Ok" SE agrees that things aren't "Ok", Yoshi tells us regularally that things need improvement, constructive critisim, even of your "heroes" is important. It's how, as the people paying for this endeavor, we get to see some return on our time and money. You do realize it's our money that makes this all possible, for that we should be able to get something we truly enjoy. I don't expect to "love" ever aspect of every system in place, but like in XI I will leave what I don't like alone, content wise, things that will simply take too long for me to do in a realistic time frame will be ignored, but I shouldn't ever look at things and say "Well I think this could be improved, but I'll say it's ok the way it is because I don't think anyone should ever have to change what's already here." If that's the approach people take then nothing good would ever come of these forums, or the desire that has been shown to "please" the players. -
05-19-2012, 10:37 PMFearHe means make re-entry times longer but increase the drop rateQuote:
Originally Posted by KiriA500
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05-19-2012, 11:06 PMKiriA500Yeah, but why would casuals cry? They already play casually, so it doesn't really effect them. It's the "hardcore" people who would be effected by this the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear
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05-19-2012, 11:08 PMIsaveronMore than "casuals" will complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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05-19-2012, 11:08 PMHyrist
Heres the rub.
If you make drop rates better, even with longer entry timers, then the interest in the content dies faster.
I'm in complete agreement with the idea that the RNG system needs to go. However, in order to encourge people to replay this content after the permanent loot is gone, then there needs to be some sort of highly desirable consumable involved.
Primal Weapons? Cool, but you get to keep those. How about Primal Meteria? Or Droughts of Elemental essence? (a drink that allows you to absorb or highly resist damage of a particular element.) Beyond merely the "have primal, can use it once" extension - you'll have many reasons to go back to fight these monsters even when you've gotten their permanent drops. -
05-19-2012, 11:11 PMSav
Run-on sentences make me cry ; ;
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05-19-2012, 11:17 PMHyristNever take Latin then. They'll show you how to extend a sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav
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05-19-2012, 11:34 PMCatapultYou're right. there is SO much that could be done with these fights beyond just getting their rare drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Somebody kill off the G5 Dark Matter drops already. -
05-20-2012, 03:58 AMNabiri
OP confused the heck outta me. Are you saying you want entry times for battles to be longer, so we can't do them as often?
I think it would be harder to find groups outside of LS if it was too long. People would be saying, "I would go with you but I've already gone today." I'd like to at least be able to do a battle a few times a day. -
05-20-2012, 05:41 AMRydinI've been asking for Primal Materia for AGESQuote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Also, once we can summon them in a free company, people will be more inclined to fight them regularly -
05-20-2012, 06:14 AMEnfariousThat doesn't sound like your confused, but rather that you just don't like the idea. I don't suggest things so concretely, it's a reduction in the number of times you can enter in a period of time, rather than enter every 15 mins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabiri
A fixed number of times in a day/week/few days or what have you. You get 3 Ifrit entry tokens/day they can stack to 12, so if your going every day your limited to 3 runs a day, but if your only going every 2~4+ days you'd get 6~12 runs at him. Seperate entry tokens for each "content" so in a single day you could do 3 Ifrit 3 Garuda 3 Moogle 3 AV 3 CC 3 DH, if that's not enough to fill your day you need to start sleeping.
Universal tokens on the other hand you'd get maybe 8/day stacking to 24, everyday you can do 8 of w/e you want at w/e times you want, 8 Ifrits, 8 Garudas, or 8 AV. Or you can mix n match, do Ifrit 5 times you've still got 3 for something else.
Not unlike anima. -
05-20-2012, 08:26 AMQuatre
Why do you have to type "EG" instead of End Game? This is one of my biggest pet peeves. Why do we abbreviate everything? or WDWAE
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05-20-2012, 11:35 AMEnfariousReally? That's what you want to say? Does it really matter that much to you? That's the one thing that stuck out in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre
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05-20-2012, 11:51 AMPhen
The thing is some lockouts but not so harsh etc. 2-5 hours is enough to make it slower while not locking it completely up. Makes it impractical spam while allowing "i did that today... i can do it with you later though." Obviously don't have failures count to lockouts, encourages play style diversity and taking a risk now and again.
btw
If you want people to like an idea comparing it to anima and all the fun people say about it is probably not wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
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05-20-2012, 12:10 PMEnfariousThat's kind of where the idea of the tokens came from, that way you could spam it a few times a day or 2/3 days a week say 9/10 times each day. The only thing I don't like about say a 4 hr lockout is that it would stop people from being able to do it more than once a day in some cases while others get more, for the sake of allowing everyone to enter an equal number of times in a period, noone can bitch then, it's their choice to use or not use their entries in a time period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phen
For instance I have ~3hrs a day sunday~thursday of actual play time, I could make that 3 hrs into 3 tags used on w/e, but w/ a 4hr lock out I get 1, period.
I hoped/assumed that like some have stopped getting hung up on people mentioning FFXI so much, people would be able to read all and not get stuck on the one word, in retrospect, maybe not the best idea.Quote:
If you want people to like an idea comparing it to anima and all the fun people say about it is probably not wise.
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05-20-2012, 02:18 PMRokien
Are you kidding me right now?!?! Seriously!?!?! I made a thread pertaining to this and all I got was crap. Seriously? NOW everyone thinks this is a good idea?
Edit:
of course I don't mean "everyone", I'm just upset at some of the stuff I'm seeing on these forums now. -
05-20-2012, 02:43 PMsorahitoshiLOL funny how that happens huhQuote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
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05-20-2012, 03:32 PMAlhanelem
Gradual progress > random number generator. That is all.
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05-20-2012, 03:39 PMPhenWell tags has issues as well. You did mention playing XI do you recall how assault tags became a precious resource? I recall not helping people several times because "i have salvage/nyzul/captain in 3 days." So it becomes a day lockout in itself. That said the limited playtime isnt helped by minimal hour lockouts. Theres isnt a perfect system like that. Well besides no lockout, high drop rates, and tons of stuff to do with the dungeon so you have to go back for xyz quests, unqiue materia etc. Thats really unrealistic though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
The problem with mentioning ffxi is gives a different context to a statement. "I want nyzul" and "I want a dungeon crawl" give different meanings etc. Even my above assault tag example gives a different context because it implies same token/multiple content 24hr cool etc. Really though its the "my mom/my ex did it this way" statement. Doesn't matter if there's a good point since it will immediately cause anger.
Also on a forum, since its written, any point is up for contention. If that one guy goes "OMG YOU SAID EG" its best to just ignore it. -
05-20-2012, 03:59 PMAnswa
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05-20-2012, 04:46 PMNabiriIt doesn't sound like anything because you can't hear a tone of voice when reading something over the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
But I assure you that I'm a very straightforward person, and I wasn't quite sure what your idea was... that is why I asked. Something about the way the OP was worded just confused me. I apologize if English is not your first language or something. The short broken sentences and then the run-on ones threw me off. So thank you for clarifying. As I said, as long as I can do something a few times a day I'm happy. If it's reduced a little I wouldn't mind. But I think it would be easier for me to find members if it was more than once a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
The rest here, while interesting, I personally couldn't care less about drop rates and such. I figure "I'll get it eventually, I don't need it right now." I'm more about the journey(just enjoying myself with people) than the destination(rewards), and I'm probably masochistically patient, lol. So, I mean, I wouldn't care if they kept the same crappy drop-rates they have now. But I wouldn't mind them being a little better either. :x Meh~
But again, thanks for clarifying. -
05-20-2012, 10:04 PMEnfariousI don't disagree about there being no "perfect" system, but tags as they were in Nyzul/Assault did make it a 24 deal, here I'm saying 3/day stackable to 9 or 12, and seperate for each "Content" add to that you can spend 2x tags from one "content" to enter another so 2 Ifrit tags will get you into AV/CC/Garuda/etc. You really have no shortage of chances to do things per day, but you won't be doing Ifrit 33 times a day until you've all drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phen
I know, I know, but using things like "My Ex/Mom/Dad/FFXI/WoW/Rift" give people a relational basis to work from, some people will be able to maintain some objectivity, the My Ex bit is taking a bad road, the My Mom road can work far better, and in the case of games giving people a point to relate to can be useful.
Yeah but it's not fun to ignore it, I enjoy healthy debate, I also enjoy poking the people that say dumb shit to evoke a response that might be more intelligent. Call it a character flaw, I find it an entertaining past time. -
05-20-2012, 10:18 PMEnfariousReally that opening lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabiri
English is my first language, but that doesn't make me a literary genius. I also tend to write things while playing so alot of my thoughts end up disjointed. That said.
Perhaps saying that it "sounded" like you just didn't like the idea wasn't the best approach, maybe I should have simply explained what I meant right off the top. I'd even go so far as to say that the OP may have been poorly worded and/or grammatically incorrect, now that it's been clarified though I guess were good.
Really though don't care at all about staring at Ifrit for 100+ fights. Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing with people, it's why I have a linkshell and friendlist, repeating the same content until the images are so thoroughly imbedded in my memory that overwriting them requires a grinding wheel to be applied first just isn't fun. When the people you play with get to a point that they're complaining more than anything about the miserable drop rates the "fun" gets drained out of the game. It's exciting the first time, it's enjoyable the next 20 or so, it becomes a chore somewhere around 100. Unless of course there's a genuine sense of forward motion, totems/currency/etc. The weapons don't ever have to drop directly for me, so long as I've a chance to get something for my time eventually.
To simply not care how long it takes, even if it's hundreds of wins before getting what you want ...
That level of masochism is scary.
Edit: So after rereading my OP, I can see how the single block-O-text could be a little annoying, I've spent far too long programming to care much about punctuation though. To my eyes it read fine but then I wrote it and know exactly what I meant so I'm biased.