6.1 SMN. Why?

What up with this Ifrit nerf?
Increase the cast times by 20% but increase the damage by 10-15%?? That's less dps. Like, Ruby Rite goes from 180 pot/sec to 170. The Ifrit phase was already the weakest of the three, and it was made worse. There's no reward for having to stand-and-cast. I don't mind the cast time being there, as it's an opportunity cost, but the potencies should have gone up at least 30% from before to make up for the increased cast times. Or keep the potency increases and drop the cast time to 2.5 as before.

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Originally Posted by Rauderi

What up with this Ifrit nerf?
Increase the cast times by 20% but increase the damage by 10-15%?? That's less dps. Like, Ruby Rite goes from 180 pot/sec to 170. The Ifrit phase was already the weakest of the three, and it was made worse. There's no reward for having to stand-and-cast. I don't mind the cast time being there, as it's an opportunity cost, but the potencies should have gone up at least 30% from before to make up for the increased cast times. Or keep the potency increases and drop the cast time to 2.5 as before.

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The cast time was already 2.8 seconds. What they're doing is increasing the RECAST time (the GCD) to 3 seconds. Basically, this means there won't be a DPS increase to using Swiftcast on Ifrit spells anymore, because even if you get the instant cast you won't get a shorter recast time.

It's ultimately pointless because no one's going to just sit on Swiftcast on the off chance they need to rez someone or, Twelve forfend, move on one of the 3 hardcast spells they have every 60 seconds. They're just going to use it to snapshot Slipstream under buffs instead.

it's not a nerf, but an extremely imperceptible buff.

I got baited similarly. It is a buff by like... <1%. Its so minimal, nothing has changed.

Searing Light is still inferior to Embolden.
Magick Barrier is still better than uncontrollable Flame of Rebirth
RDM Raise still > SMN raise

BLM Still > RDM who still > SMN in damage.

Can you clear the next ultimate on SMN? Yeah but you ain't helping your group.

*edits*

Yeah, Ifrit GCD still do less damage than Ifrit instant cast GCDs and Titan oGCDs.

i think the problem with the changes are twofold. First the ifrit changes seem to be made to lessen the dependency on Swiftcast, but all this really achieves is moving swiftcast from Ruby Rite to Slipstream. Second, the buffs are so minor they will barely be noticed. But ultimately the major issue is that these changes fail to address the core issue Summoner faces and the SL change actively makes one issue worse.

For me these are:

1- overly rigid Rotation, little to optimise.
2- Majority of the rotation is executed by spamming a singular reskinned button a set number of times with a singular deviation whrn you have titan out.
3- There is nothing to track and nothing to compel or reward effort.
4- Carbuncle does nothing.

Possible solutions:
1 - Restore Bahmut and Phoenix to their functions within SHB - this does mean we will have to deal with some Demi Ghosting, but it would mean that effort = max WW which gives reward for actually play. Or at the least give phoenix its 1-2 combo back.
2- Further diversify the Arcanum summons, have them provide something that is built and then spent on an action so that if arcanum is done wrong, then we lose use of this skill. Chnage the GCD Rotation and lessen the number of instant casts. Smn is a caster after all.
3- points 1 and 2 would address this.
4- Carbuncle doing nothing and having no purpose, is partially an issue with the changes to egi's themselves. One potential solution would be to have carbuncle be permment and do something alongside the summons themselves, either similiar to a WW or a mechanism that can buff certain summon abilities. Another option is to change Fester into a carbuncle attack that is commanded from the summoner but has an animation that uses Carbuncle.
5 - Possible final - Alter Phoenix so its "utility" can be stored and used once every 2 minutes as and when required, rather than forced during the phoenix phase.

These are the things i can think of, but i do want to stress: The Rework was the right step for summoner Identity, but it needs some refinement and adjustments in order for the job to be as Engaging and Rewarding as other Jobs.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

i think the problem with the changes are twofold. First the ifrit changes seem to be made to lessen the dependency on Swiftcast, but all this really achieves is moving swiftcast from Ruby Rite to Slipstream. Second, the buffs are so minor they will barely be noticed. But ultimately the major issue is that these changes fail to address the core issue Summoner faces and the SL change actively makes one issue worse.

For me these are:

1- overly rigid Rotation, little to optimise.
2- Majority of the rotation is executed by spamming a singular reskinned button a set number of times with a singular deviation whrn you have titan out.
3- There is nothing to track and nothing to compel or reward effort.
4- Carbuncle does nothing.

Possible solutions:
1 - Restore Bahmut and Phoenix to their functions within SHB - this does mean we will have to deal with some Demi Ghosting, but it would mean that effort = max WW which gives reward for actually play. Or at the least give phoenix its 1-2 combo back.
2- Further diversify the Arcanum summons, have them provide something that is built and then spent on an action so that if arcanum is done wrong, then we lose use of this skill. Chnage the GCD Rotation and lessen the number of instant casts. Smn is a caster after all.
3- points 1 and 2 would address this.
4- Carbuncle doing nothing and having no purpose, is partially an issue with the changes to egi's themselves. One potential solution would be to have carbuncle be permment and do something alongside the summons themselves, either similiar to a WW or a mechanism that can buff certain summon abilities. Another option is to change Fester into a carbuncle attack that is commanded from the summoner but has an animation that uses Carbuncle.
5 - Possible final - Alter Phoenix so its "utility" can be stored and used once every 2 minutes as and when required, rather than forced during the phoenix phase.

These are the things i can think of, but i do want to stress: The Rework was the right step for summoner Identity, but it needs some refinement and adjustments in order for the job to be as Engaging and Rewarding as other Jobs.

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Nothing you listed is an issue. It's your personal distate of the job.

Having a rigid rotation is not an issue. It's a job flavour. The opposite of that would be DNC, BRD or RDM with their RNG procs. The later having ways to manipulate them.
A consolidated hotbar is not an issue. It's a cleaned up design and doesn't bloat your hotbar.
Carbuncle casts Radiant Aegis and needs to be summoned to be infused with aether to change into Egis, gem primals and Demi-Summons.
And lastly, I'm not sure what you mean by compelling and rewarding effort. But I sure as hell don't think anyone is trying to fail a DPS check, using Rekindle on the tank is pretty obvious, etc...

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Originally Posted by EhvaTaco

Nothing you listed is an issue. It's your personal distate of the job.

Having a rigid rotation is not an issue. It's a job flavour. The opposite of that would be DNC, BRD or RDM with their RNG procs. The later having ways to manipulate them.
A consolidated hotbar is not an issue. It's a cleaned up design and doesn't bloat your hotbar.
Carbuncle casts Radiant Aegis and needs to be summoned to be infused with aether to change into Egis, gem primals and Demi-Summons.
And lastly, I'm not sure what you mean by compelling and rewarding effort. But I sure as hell don't think anyone is trying to fail a DPS check, using Rekindle on the tank is pretty obvious, etc...

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Rigid is a problem for optimization. BRD also has a rigid rotation I don't know why you would bring that up, you cycle your songs 43 34 43 burst rinse repeat, with a bit of holding procs and judgement for when is best to use your out-of-burst Apex Arrow when optimizing. A non-rigid rotation is something like BLM who can mostly restructure their rotation to suit a fight or comp, and execute non-standard rotational elements to further optimize damage. SMN does not have this in any capacity, your rotation is set in stone and you only diverge from it if you are forced to by phase changes or boss untargetability or something.

A consolidated hotbar isn't a problem, you're right. What is a problem is when 90% of a rotation can be consolidated to 1 button without loss in complexity, which SMN's can. This is indicative of an overly simplistic or restrictive kit, just ask a healer how much they like pressing one button.

Both of those issues combined allow for little player input or executional requirements, so to people looking for those two factors the job is not compelling and does not feel rewarding.

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Originally Posted by EhvaTaco

Nothing you listed is an issue. It's your personal distate of the job.

Having a rigid rotation is not an issue. It's a job flavour. The opposite of that would be DNC, BRD or RDM with their RNG procs. The later having ways to manipulate them.
A consolidated hotbar is not an issue. It's a cleaned up design and doesn't bloat your hotbar.
Carbuncle casts Radiant Aegis and needs to be summoned to be infused with aether to change into Egis, gem primals and Demi-Summons.
And lastly, I'm not sure what you mean by compelling and rewarding effort. But I sure as hell don't think anyone is trying to fail a DPS check, using Rekindle on the tank is pretty obvious, etc...

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i prefaced it with "or me these are" in other words "in my opinion"

I dont think flavour comes from rigidity.

Its true no one deliberatly fails a dps check. But there is nothing in the rotation that compels you to try either and nothing to bear in mind. Its just slap buttons that light up.

Reskinned buttons arent the issue in themselves but when all you do is press said Reskinned button and little else that is a problem.

Yes using Rekindle on a tank is obvious, but you can only use it when phoenix is up, and if there isnt anything that requires it its wasted.

A job thats engaging is one that requires you to think and plan and prioritise. All other jobs have this to some degree or other. The changes i am asking for to make the job better, would allow for this. The options are only ideas, not things im demanding have to be included. But even if they deviated each summon so the GCD Mechanics was slightly differnt that would grant some flavour, if they lessened the Instant cast it would give something to further consider when employing said summons. Ultimately im not saying massive changes are required, but i do think these would bring some variance to the job.

As for having "distaste for the job" please do not put words in my mouth. The reason ive gone to such lengths to comment and give feedback is because i actually like SMN a lot. I've mained it since ARR Beta and i certainly think as i put in my last sentence, that i thought the rework is the right approach, but needs some refinement and adjustments. MY suggestions where some of those things that could be done to bring variance. The job "flavour" as you put it, is the summons themselves, but how they are engaging is down to the mechanics within each summon mini phase

Just to be clear... Criticising something does not mean its hated. There are alway improvements to made in some form or another.

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Originally Posted by Rauderi

What up with this Ifrit nerf?
Increase the cast times by 20% but increase the damage by 10-15%?? That's less dps. Like, Ruby Rite goes from 180 pot/sec to 170. The Ifrit phase was already the weakest of the three, and it was made worse. There's no reward for having to stand-and-cast. I don't mind the cast time being there, as it's an opportunity cost, but the potencies should have gone up at least 30% from before to make up for the increased cast times. Or keep the potency increases and drop the cast time to 2.5 as before.

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I know the intention behind the change was to get us to use our rez but at this point I'd rather they just delete the spell from the kit. Give us another Astral Flow ability in its place. Swiftcast is now practically useless outside of movement at lower levels, unless I find myself in a party that is struggling for whatever reason. Ideally I wish we could just fast forward to 7.0 for whenever they give us Demi-Alex or some other summoning gauge for one-off primals like him or Odin.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Rigid is a problem for optimization. BRD also has a rigid rotation I don't know why you would bring that up, you cycle your songs 43 34 43 burst rinse repeat, with a bit of holding procs and judgement for when is best to use your out-of-burst Apex Arrow when optimizing. A non-rigid rotation is something like BLM who can mostly restructure their rotation to suit a fight or comp, and execute non-standard rotational elements to further optimize damage. SMN does not have this in any capacity, your rotation is set in stone and you only diverge from it if you are forced to by phase changes or boss untargetability or something.

A consolidated hotbar isn't a problem, you're right. What is a problem is when 90% of a rotation can be consolidated to 1 button without loss in complexity, which SMN's can. This is indicative of an overly simplistic or restrictive kit, just ask a healer how much they like pressing one button.

Both of those issues combined allow for little player input or executional requirements, so to people looking for those two factors the job is not compelling and does not feel rewarding.

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I listed those three due to their nature with their procs. Yeah, I guess BRD's rotation can be rather same-y otherwise. But that's true for every job to some extent. However, SMN's core rotation having little to no variance is still not a problem. That's just how the job's design. But I don't think comparing SMN to the healers is a good example. Healers are designed around having a variety of healing options and tools. The days of old, where SCHs managed 4+ dots are long over and job design has since changed.

That said, SMN is simply a simple job with lots of mobility and the game feel it offers of summoning primals. In a game with so many options to choose from, having one or two "easy modes" is a given.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I know the intention behind the change was to get us to use our rez but at this point I'd rather they just delete the spell from the kit. Give us another Astral Flow ability in its place. Swiftcast is now practically useless outside of movement at lower levels, unless I find myself in a party that is struggling for whatever reason. Ideally I wish we could just fast forward to 7.0 for whenever they give us Demi-Alex or some other summoning gauge for one-off primals like him or Odin.

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i think this is a bit overblown. there are two possible uses forSwiftcast - 1- Snapshotting Slipstream under raidbuffs and 2 - Resing. And i suppose you could in desperate times use a swift to move if you absolutely had to and you happened need to between last arcanum and Demi reset ... though the chances are so small and unlikely.

I kind of hopein 7.0 we get 3 x arcanum and maybe a third demi or an upgrade to the current Demis... I was thinking maybe H and Z from Endwalker would be really cool. Honestly i know a lot of people want Alexander but i dont think it would look good. (Totally based on Aesthetic reasons)

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Originally Posted by EhvaTaco

I listed those three due to their nature with their procs. Yeah, I guess BRD's rotation can be rather same-y otherwise. But that's true for every job to some extent. However, SMN's core rotation having little to no variance is still not a problem. That's just how the job's design. But I don't think comparing SMN to the healers is a good example. Healers are designed around having a variety of healing options and tools. The days of old, where SCHs managed 4+ dots are long over and job design has since changed.

That said, SMN is simply a simple job with lots of mobility and the game feel it offers of summoning primals. In a game with so many options to choose from, having one or two "easy modes" is a given.

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Wait...so SMN being a healer-level kit complexity, but with none of the healing tools is a good thing? Because the game needs an "easy mode"? You could have gone with anything, like "oh well you can choose summon order" or "the same button you press has a cast time 3 times a minute" or "trust me astral flow on Arcanum summons changes everything trust me", but you went with that?

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I kind of hopein 7.0 we get 3 x arcanum and maybe a third demi or an upgrade to the current Demis... I was thinking maybe H and Z from Endwalker would be really cool. Honestly i know a lot of people want Alexander but i dont think it would look good. (Totally based on Aesthetic reasons)

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Due to the story, there's a really good chance that we could get Eternal Darkness and Divine Light Trance. Especially the former. And it excites me a lot!

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Originally Posted by EhvaTaco

Due to the story, there's a really good chance that we could get Eternal Darkness and Divine Light Trance. Especially the former. And it excites me a lot!

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That would require SE to remember primals outside of ARR exist. Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I kind of hopein 7.0 we get 3 x arcanum and maybe a third demi or an upgrade to the current Demis... I was thinking maybe H and Z from Endwalker would be really cool. Honestly i know a lot of people want Alexander but i dont think it would look good. (Totally based on Aesthetic reasons)

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Hydaelyn and Zodiark would be such a dream come true-especially if we get to see a demi model of a "complete" Zodiark. Whether Hydaelyn or Alex I just really miss having a light/holy summon.

Because no one over there actually plays Summoner apparently. Prob not true, but "Wonder, I sometimes do."

Given my almost zero faith for the future of this job or the people in charge of it, after all these years of playing it... I want one thing at least. Please make the place command, the point at which summons spawn instead of always on my tail, it's painful ok, thanks.

Sorry for the negativity, I'm in a funk today, prob shouldn't post but I'm dumb, so there it is, prob all the damage from Titan landing on my skull. Carry on.

Ah zodiark... im still bummed we didnt get to meet the true zodiark (i know elidi kinda is and kinda isnt but still) I do like his design though. Id be so hyped if thats what we got in 7.0.

The Zodi/Hydie ship already sailed with Endwalker. Massively missed opportunity.

It's 2 more years of distilled triteness and it's unlikely the next expansion will make Summoner require more than vegetable IQ once the lowest common denominators settle on Summoner (see White Mage since ARR).

I honestly probably would have liked this version of SMN in 2.0, but there’s nothing unique about it.

Too much of the job is weakened because of flavor and weird clunky design.

Having healing utility attached to a 20 second window is bad design and is just flavor because it’s phoenix.

Having resurrection and physick is because of scholar.

They don’t want to get rid of carbuncle, so our shield is often locked out.

You can also ask yourself why there is more White Mage players than Astrologians when AST is superior. WHM is quite simple and easy compared to AST.

This is the same for SMN and BLM. You see a huge amount of SMN players versus BLM. Because SMN is literally a 1 button job that you can't work anything around.

Why are there more Reapers than any other melees? Because its the easiest melee to play.

But easy gameplay mechanic does not warrant the terrible cluster hell that is Summoner in raid. Maybe spell speed will have more value now that you can press Searing light during Bahamut/Phoenix? All I'm saying is Red Mage is brain dead and easy gameplay mechanic and its infinitely more enjoyable for yourself and the party to have around.