Typos fixed in this version, aside from some website format errors:
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/32884..._1#entry500594
Might be a bit easier on the eyes too. Actually I really recommend it.
Well, I did say I liked thorough posts… And I haven’t been able to drool over someone else’s so I made my own.
Post has been edited quite a bit, possibly at loss of some fun / readability in exchange for concise clarity / readability. Who would have thought…? Non-edited area starts around section III. Feel free to skip the technical stuff, especially in section 0.
Took a couple hours to write, but a lot more time to revise… That said I’d still be happy to edit in any clearer or more “motivating” content into the post if needed. I’ll probably do more revision in general tomorrow. First I need sleep.
0A. Background:
- Full elemental wheel returned to Conjurors. Umbral/Astral magic returned to Thaumaturges.
- Allow party and self-targeting.
- Spell histories tracked per unit (enemy / friendly) to the latest application – calculations are made with each addition of spell “mass” (below) to the unit.
- Return of multiple spell levels within each element – i.e. Aero, Aerora, Aeroga.
- No spell critical hits. [Keep in mind that this does not change caster damage at all in its current incarnation seeing as that will already be gone, and the gameplay will be plenty variable and “crit”-like without being dependent on random dice-rolls to cover the function.]
0B. Purpose:
To replace the current combat mentality insofar as these changes are relevant (casters) to one that is immensely strategic in a freeform manner. The gameplay centers on the idea that elements fit into certain spectrums (like Heat, Saturation, Light), with different methods of application and bypasses of defenses, that are put into strategic use in combination, paired with a high use of angular, deployment, and order-of-strategy coordination. These differences are fundamental, not minor repairs, but require fairly little coding. Animations may be needed for upper spell types.
The examples I give through the majority of this thread are very simplistic within the range that this system can be used, in order to be understandable at the time that they are used. I ask that you do not judge its extents based on them, but rather imagine how you would like to use it. And I can almost certainly promise that no matter how grandiose or complex the idea is, this system can cover it.
0C. Predictions for future uses:
Large-scale advancements to AI based off new fundamental categories, leading to both smarter and more unique elements and therefore their fights; changes to layering of defenses, variable order of operation defined by active to passive or outer to inner defenses instead of simply flat to percentile; split weapon damage types, armor penetration and armor bypass reforms (gear damage reforms, repair reforms); more responsive and significant defense categories (parry, block, etc); larger role of senses in combat, especially as it applies to AI [what you couldn’t see due to darkness won’t specify enmity on the unseen attacker, but it can make the mob afraid of the dark.]
0D. FAQs [Growing with edits]
1.There are. They are covered by more basic general factors, such as Heat for the above. In this way the elements not only have bonuses in and of themselves, but in combination, with a vast total amount of unique uses greater than can be made in such a preset fashion. That’s the point of all this – freeform, complex strategy.Quote:
Why are there no unique properties to the elements, like DoTs for fire, slows for ice, etc?
I. Split spell damage into Mass and Potency.
- Mass: directly converted from the caster’s stats, this is how “much” of the element is put into play on the target / affected area. Obviously, mass is not resisted, only avoided / evaded / blocked / etc.
- Potency: the multiplier that turns Mass into actual spell damage. 100% Potency would be 100% of the spell Mass dealt as Damage. Passive resistances average about 20% for “non-resistant” or “normal” mobs, with certain defensive features making that much higher against certain mediums.
- Keep in mind a mob can be weak to an element while still having some defensive feature that makes it very able to resist that element until bypassed. Most bypassing is done through using a different element medium, commonly transferring the other element’s mass through that medium.
- Medium: the method of application for a given element, or which element will be in control of moving elemental mass in a given form or area.
- When one element is cast upon another, the element mass and certain characteristics (see [Section II] below) of the first is converted into the larger mass (Heat acts as an additional multiplier in this calculation for Fire, Water, and Ice), taking its medium.
- For example, whether Water mass is a Water medium, Ice medium, or saturated Wind medium depends on temperature. Water added to a higher -Fire mass x heat- will convert the water (Water medium) to steam (Wind medium), at the cost of some heat within the not yet quenched flames (Fire medium). Fire added to a higher -water mass x heat- will become Water medium (hot water). In either case the Heat characteristic is retained when changing to a new element medium, and the Saturation characteristic is retained in changing from Water to Wind medium.
II. Create elemental factors in accordance with more basic physical factors.Quote:
Negligible. Would hide if I knew how to make a "Spoiler" function, along with a lot of other stuff...
Fire – No true medium
Water – Liquid masses (not including fine amounts) – can carry solid mass
Ice – No true medium
Lightning – Plasma [rare - incredible amounts of Heat can allow Lightning spells to move the full Heat (and Fire mass) from one target to another]
Earth – Ground
Wind – Flames and anything airborne
- Heat (Increasing leads to increased Fire potency and Burn [here defined only as a DoT], while decreasing leads to increased Ice potency, Slow, and Heavy. Characteristic retained for converted Fire and Ice.)
- Light (Involved heavily in Astral/Umbral magics. Utility uses may include Blindness and Collusion [likely to be renamed if done].
- Saturation (Characteristic retained for converted water.)
- Solid Mass (Characteristic retained for Earth and for Ice when not melted into Water)
Use of these categories allows almost all spell effects to be carried from multiple stacks of different elements without having to remember all the different spell masses, and interact with other systems of elements in their relevant categories without having to check all the different element masses involved in that system.
To do otherwise would cause the amount of calculations to increase factorially. This instead adds only one constant category per magic-affected enemy (or friendly), another often calculated [Heat], and a couple occasionally calculated [the rest], each checked only when affected, reducing server load. This can be handled by the current servers, and can be smoothly handled by those of version 2.0.
III. Mediums and Element – Dominating Mediums. This applies to two basic rationales, though their points will overlap. I apologize for what might seem repetitive. Think of them as two ways of explaining mostly the same content. [Original idea / unedited post begins... May get more sarcastic, less technical.]
1. First the easier one to explain: damage can be carried over from previous element types as the previous element medium is removed and replaced. For example, with the Fire to Water sequence on the crab monster, the literal flames are extinguished by the water, removing that medium, but the water spell carries over the majority of the Fire mass into the Water medium.
Continuing on with less technical stuff though, the basics of this are that mass is not “lost” once cast, except through natural degeneration (a game constant, if you will). It can be transferred, either from being moved or from its medium being changed, but not lost. Now as for the sort of order or criteria for dominating mediums:Quote:
[This percentage that carries over is due to Heat, which is one of the reasons why you really might purely fire-nuke certain enemies. Adding enough water would extinguish (convert) the incredibly intense flames, but due to the extreme heat they’d be converted only into Steam (Wind medium), which disperses the flame mass much more than the water medium. Unless you need a smokescreen it’s probably not worth the loss.]
This actually works pretty logically. You can’t turn Water mass into a flame medium to make… water flames. But you can leach the heat out of flames into a water medium to make boiling hot water. Or, you can evaporate water to create steam, which can then be moved by Wind medium, including both the remaining heat and saturation. You can transfer an initial Lightning medium (plasma?) into water medium to create electrified water.
2. Even while two elements might work on opposite ends of the same spectrum, they will not necessarily cancel each other out, because they vary in method of application, in addition to position on that spectrum. To make sense of what I just said, let’s consider this in the two most basic combat types, PvE and PvP.
PvE: if each element cancelled out its opposite, your party would, per target, be limited to half their elemental pool. While this might be interesting for timing dps vs. conservation and timing lingering effects as to be able to switch between damage and utility and the right moments (swapping from Fire to Ice for example), it would be immensely annoying for any team not entirely coordinated. It would also, on the whole, carry less possible strategy than what can be done with a full elemental wheel, given reasons for carrying out exact purposes at precise times through the mixture of elements… kind of like messing around with paints, but killing shit every time you form lavender in a… lavender situation. I’ll give a better example later, I swear.
PvP: [Ex 2] Now let’s go back to that “method of application” part I glanced over. Let’s say someone’s trying to set me on fire. Now, I could use Ice (the opposite on the Heat spectrum) to counter this, but to actually “block” it I would have to be able to change the way I use the spell to form a wall or some matter of armor. [More on why spells should or should not have this option in part IV.]
But even in that sense, the important part is simply that I’m blocking the element from reaching me with a physical barrier. Earth would serve just as well. Or perhaps I could aim a Water attack at him, starting from my position, intercepting his Fire spell cast; whatever. [More on necessary angular precision and uses in part V.]
The point is, if those options are impossible [as without the ability to turn elements into walls or armor directly], I can’t just freeze myself without taking some additional damage. Moreover, it’d be competing directly with the Fire element spell’s Heat even in forming the spell, and the flame medium won’t be gone until I’ve eliminated it via Ice.
I can however soak myself, extinguishing the flames at cost of possible damage taken from the Fire that has transferred through the Water medium, and then immediately cool myself with Ice magic thereafter to eliminate that damage, using the water mass as basically free Ice mass minus the cooling I have to do. The closer I time the Water and Ice together, the less damage I take. Combination-casting this with party-member could cut it down to no damage at all. And personally, in an (2.0 Limsa Lominsa arena, yes!) arena fight, if I really hated both DoTs and being slowed via Frost, I’d stack frost resistance and just blast myself with a full Blizzard spell…
IV. Spell Application – “Friendly-fire limiters” & “At what level is too much control?”
- “Friendly-fire limiters…”
Now, there was an obvious question from the last paragraph (end of Ex 2) that I’d like to address now, mostly because it fits what follows. Why wouldn’t Water cause damage too?
First is that there is a small semblance of realism alongside the pursuit of complex gameplay. Water does not have to hurt unless the caster means it to hurt. Ice on the other hand, will hurt at least a bit regardless. They have different extents to which damage can be cut back when friendly-casting.
However, that doesn’t mean that there are “safe” and “unsafe” elements exactly. Water might still cause a little damage—I don’t know, it’s a negligible detail in my mind right now. Besides, it’s a matter of “doesn’t have to”, which means there must have been an option in play. Or this case, AI, mostly. Basically, when casting on an ally, it will assume friendly intentions, and do the best to meet them. This is actually easily doable. [If people actually end up being strategy junkies enough to want manual control, that can be programmed with one simple function (a spectrum) added and the UI to control it.]
- This is basically detecting things like the amount of negative spell mass on the friendly and whether that mass came from an enemy or friend, and then acting accordingly.
- By accordingly I mean something like… using only approximately enough Water mass to stop the flame, or only enough ice to cool you to neutral, no negative effects in either direction. This level of exactness will probably come from a stat—Piety or Intelligence—or a mixture of them, or whatever applies to the exact spell type. Additionally, potency is very low except when transferring enemy element mass, or when the enemies use your own spell mass for their abilities. For example, if one enemy set you on fire, and you quench it with Water mass/medium, they can still use any remaining Water mass left on you to add to their next Ice ability (on you).
This is getting incredibly long… I didn’t think I could write this much in a couple hours, and I’m noticing more and more that even if the fundamental changes might be simple by comparison, that comparison is being made to any hundreds of situations I can make just off the top of my head for using this system… Now before I leave this section with a long sigh and a face-roll… that other part I mentioned:
- “At what level is too much control?”
To which I say nay. Now the important part: why. Basically, I think it will reduce strategy and synergy. While turning things like Stone into Stoneskin makes sense, I think it should do so by using something from another class, or at least a spell like Protect, in order to acquire that Medium (a shield). If you could simply walk in (coated in armor of Ice), freeze everyone in their tracks (with Ice), impale them all (also with Ice), feel no pity like a cold-blooded bastard (takes a lot of Ice), walk out coolly (Ice!), and have a cold drink (yes, with Ice), then what freaking point does the rest of the player base, classes, strategic sequences, or elements have for you?Quote:
This basically addresses the question of “Why not allow me to turn my Blizzard into Ice armor? We’re masters of the elements, right? We should be able to do this.”
I enjoy the feeling of friendly modesty I get from FFXIV. In my opinion if you should kick ass that much (as above), it’ll have come as a credit to and from the team. That’s where the majority of strategy and fun is going to occur — in the team. It can still be done as a single player too, but it’s done by knowing that not every purpose and source will match immediately, and in the aggregate strategy of finding the best solution for the immediate, thereafter, and well down the line.
V. Angular Precision and Use of Angles in Strategy (purpose continued in VI)
This is actually pretty simple, I just felt I needed to go over briefly. I will NOT be proposing the adoption of Front-Side-Back-Above-Below combo systems, and certainly not as a requirement. No, what they will be used for will make sense, and be as lenient as they exactly deserve.
Takes this as an example: I have a Thaumaturge (returned to old Light/Shadow magic), and Conjurer spamming spells that include lighting (not a typo) from one side. Want to take the inductive leap here? If not, well, the Thaumaturge is casting shadow-based magics from the opposite side, aided by the shadows cast from the Fire and Lightning. Fire has a conical shadow. Thunder has a shadow below the mob. Whatever spells take advantage of that would be additionally effective to be used now.
Things like this also apply even to simply guarding off attacks. Let’s take a Glady, with his shield of course. Now, he can block a portion of an oncoming fire spell in front of him, right, only makes sense. But a Thunder will not be blocked because it hits him atop the head.
In short, angle of application too affects the types of defense it goes through / will encounter.
Additionally it affects, chain-casting! If you haven’t died yet, enjoy a section on chain-casting, you masochist…
VI. Chain Casting
Okay, so let’s say we (random party with many Conjurors) have this big, heavily fire-resistant enemy [A] among a bunch of not-so-fire-resistant enemies… We can kill the big fire resistant guy last, and there’s an order to which we want to kill the many smaller guys. Additionally, the have quirk of going into a panic when faced with large (conical or radius-around-target) AoEs, restarting all enmity counters.
- We are going to nuke the only Fire-resistant enemy… with Fire.
- There is an order to this madness. (Remember, spell mass remains until dissipating naturally, and I am spamming Fire.)
- So let’s say all… 4 of us are just blasting away with single target fire spells, stacking more and more fire mass on this guy, without pulling threat because we’re barely dealing damage, allowing the tank to be as defensive as possible, sacrificing threat to stay alive… because none of us are healing. …Maybe one of us.
- Now let’s say we have one Thaumaturge, and that Dia’s back too, but works as it’s its icon looked. It’s an Astral DoT, as before, but it also pulls in shit (spell-mass). He’ll use that soon. [Nope, never got to that, sorry. It's a few steps later in the scenario, after my head died.]
- One conjurer breaks off from the Fire-mass stacking, and starts sequentially casting Blizzard in some sort of connect-the-dot fashion between the mobs we next want to kill, in reverse order. (Cooling will dissipate on the first cast first after all.)
- With only enough people still casting Fire to keep it from dissipating, the rest of us move so that the most cooled mob [B] is directly behind [A], and close enough to have plenty of Aerora range left (let’s say it keeps going, even past the target, for approximately 10 yalms, variable with Wind Mass (which stacks when casted this close to each other).
- The Aerora will be focused into the line of cooled units, affecting only one target at time down the line, keeping it from counting as an AoE, while transferring Flame mass into the Wind medium. In other words, you incinerate a domino-effect chain of mobs using a stacked, focused blast of wind, with threat shared between all conjurors who cast the Aerora.
________________________________________________________________________Quote:
I could probably easily give some 20+ more examples even now—these are all pretty simple scenarios and seem to have one type of strategy when that’s not the case. I simply only gave one so far. They have many, many more, as is the purpose of these changes.
Just real quick, since I’ve been pulling –ra’s and –ga’s out of a hat lately… Let me classify them. They all seem to pretty well match the FFXIII break-ups of single to AoE to Large AoE, however the shape and directionality of the AoEs vary, along with the size (density).
Quote:
Earth types all come from below, starting with what looks like a pillar or mound blasting up, to a fracture (linear) [Stonera] to an earthquake (target-centered) [Stonaga].
Quote:
Water types start from sources of moisture or the caster. In other words, if you hit an enemy with water, the next cast will hit from the last place you hit him if that distance is shorter. Starting from the caster they look like blasts or waves, depending on size, with an impact animation basically the same as what already exists.
Quote:
Fire and Fira begin at the caster. Fire is single-target, as before the reform. Fira will reach the target and then spread (it can be blocked / absorbed by the central target before the AoE). Firaga will separately both start at the caster and at all sources of heat near the target. The AoE cannot be blocked.
Quote:
All Lightning spells begin above the target. Thunder is single target, though it can be spread via water. Thundara will hit the target but any resisted damage can jump to nearby enemies, and will prefer wet ones. Thundaga will AoE around the target, preferring the target and all wet enemies in the area of effect. Each strike is counted separately.
Quote:
Only Aeroga is does not start from the caster. All will carry transferable element masses in or along the area of effect of the spells. Aero will end at the target. Aerora will continue past the target for up to a total of ~10 yalms, based on total combined Wind mass. Follows thermodynamics a little more than is realistic, targeting cooled objects and gaining potency from heat, but also moving away from heat.
Quote:
Ice magics start at caster or area of relative cooling. Blizzard is single target. Blizzara is primarily single target but can hit additional mobs if packed tightly enough. Blizzaga hits the first target and then shatters outward. If I had to give them a physical damage type, Blizzard is mostly piercing, Blizzara is crushing, and Blizzaga is crushing then turned into piercing...
Elementality – Fundamentals to Involve Chain/Sequential Elemental Casting; Complexity
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05-17-2012, 04:02 PMShurrikhanElementality – Fundamentals to Involve Chain/Sequential Elemental Casting; Complexity
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05-17-2012, 04:28 PMShurrikhan
Reserved for future use. Might want to eventually space out this eyesore.
Shame it won't let me put more than two consecutive posts... Bump-protection I guess.
I now REALLY recommend using the linked FFXIVCore version if you'd prefer reading something more spaced out / easier on the eyes. It also has additional edits that I honestly don't want to go through this whole thing to apply to this post / version as well. If I eventually put up some of my favorite scenarios (imagined raid play-by-plays using this system), they'll probably be put on the FFXIVCore one.
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/32884..._1#entry500594
Edit: The response to Deltara is pretty concise, if you want to just read that. Post #6 below. -
05-18-2012, 04:43 AMJinrya-Geki
This is a well thought out magic system.
So like fighting a robot (Magitek) covered in in rubber as an example: Lightning will not essentially hurt it at the moment because of the fight. So you would combo one of the following?
Fire starts making the rubber melt or loose. After casting fire then combo shows up to any of the other elements. Fort this example let's use Ice/Lightning. Ice cause the rubber to harden and makes it shatter from rapid cooling, or the fire previously melts the rubber. Now the robots circuits are exposed and lightning will now do double the damage.
Makes it sound more fun than spamming thunder the whole time. -
05-18-2012, 05:42 AMEnfarious
Oh complexity, I like. There's not nearly enough of that in this game, can it be worked so that 2+ mages could work together to chain effects too?
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05-18-2012, 09:14 AMShurrikhanNot only mages, but also non-caster teammates [especially if weapon type and armor penetration reforms are made (penetrated armor kept at a value even when detached from the armored unit)].Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
The example I gave Jinrya before was something like this: A Lancer (I have to admit I really want Skewer and other linear cannons back) thrusts a hole through an enemy's armor. Depending on accuracy (nearly equivalent to old critical strike chance), a caster could then blast right through the whole, or soak the enemy in order to heavily increase the chances of hitting the opening and bypassing the zone (as long as the water gets through), further ripping the armor open such that less accuracy is required to hit the opening for physicals or casters. A Pugilist then Demolishes (or any similar ability), sending the rent portions of the armor flying, a flat amount based on the armor amount and the percentage of effect loss (+ how powerful the blow is compared to that amount), and the flying shrapnel can be picked up by an Aeroga and turned into a whirlwind of cutting and piercing damage around the enemy. Etc. Etc.
As for more traditional "chain-casting" let's take this example: any elemental masses that meet will combine, right? It doesn't just have to be sequential. You can just as easily have a Fire spell and an Aero spell meet before hitting the target, as long as the lines between the casters and target (imagine it as pretty fat line) cross before reaching said target. This will often have different tactical uses than the application of one to the other after the other is already set. -
05-18-2012, 09:30 AMDeltara
I put this all into google translate to change it to English, but it didn't work. I can't tell if the system is too complex or if there are just too many new terms floating around.
I'm all for an overhaul of magic though. This thunder thunder thunder stuff has to go. -
05-18-2012, 10:30 AMShurrikhanJust skip the small details, focus on what it mentions of gameplay. Though those are the factors necessary to actually make this work, all that's really needed to see what I'm getting at are the pieces of gameplay themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltara
Long story short this is a way of using relatively few spells to accomplish many, many different things, without each individual spell being in any way OP or serving every function.
However, all can be used for any "fight" so to speak, because the fights will be far more complicated than simply "weak to fire - so use fire". There will always be at least one strategy, due to smaller factors (those technical details) that makes an element ideal for a certain part of a certain strategy (among a total possible number of strategies far more than any MMO raider would be used to). -
05-18-2012, 10:15 PMEnfarious
There's a similar thread, not nearly as in depth, talking about formations and what have you that I think fits well w/ this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post678320 -
05-19-2012, 04:13 AMShurrikhanShould have thought to link that one myself. Thanks, Enfarious. In all honesty, I think that thread is what motivated me to write this. Hopefully it can get some more hits through here, assuming anyone has remaining patience for reading...Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
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05-19-2012, 10:47 AMJinrya-GekiI know it's a shame. You put alot of time and effort into writing a well thought out post. Then people just ignore it, say everything is fine with current system, and just call you a whiner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-19-2012, 02:53 PMShurrikhanI guess it's a difference of habit, probably having to do with more than just video games. I see something like this, and my next thoughts will be on some sort of Junction system, and just how cool this game could be if its gameplay could fulfill the highest extent of all its premises and its FF legacy (well beyond merely FFXI). Another sees it and their first thoughts are "how much more work will this make me do to be raid-capable?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki
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05-19-2012, 02:59 PMShurrikhan
To Jinyra & Enfarious
Actually, on that note, I was wondering if you guys wanted to work on something together, maybe more as just considerations for different directions in which to take the game as opposed to exact suggestions. I guess it'd be purposed more towards fun or stimulation than production, at least at first. -
05-19-2012, 05:34 PMDuelleThis already weakens your proposal, as it goes entirely against the design for magic currently in place in relation to classes and their respective jobs. I haven't leveled THM to really learn how they're explaining the transition from THM to BLM, but full elemental wheel being given back to CON means that the job quests and WHM/BLM would have to change so that both stem from CON and have other mage jobs stem from THM (whether this is how it should have been since the beginning or not is moot).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Your overall system fits better in a single player RPG rather than an MMO. There's a reason why mechanics in general are so limited between the fact that you alone are not controlling all aspects of the battle, latency, delay and slow individual reaction times and so on. I will grant you that there's a benefit to not being entirely commited to one school of magic (the reason why WoW and games that followed use elemental alignments as flavor for casters), but I'm still not sold on this idea. -
05-19-2012, 06:32 PMShurrikhanI think whether 'that was how it should have been in the beginning' is the most relevant question one can ask, or at least to, in considering the quality of the idea, put aside for the moment what has been set, especially if what has been set is not fully satisfying. If one bases their ideas first and foremost off half-measures, and then each following idea off the half-measures before it, the ideal that really shouldn't have been so difficult before seems now to be fantasy. It's a point of contingency, rather than being intrinsic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I'm aware prior changes to the classes would have to be changed yet again to match this system. I also don't consider that a problem as long as this idea is taken further, completed for all aspects of the game. In all honesty, I wouldn't take this idea alone. But I'd sure as hell take a complete set, something ideal, over numerous small changes again and again or left even without those minor repairs in the name of "good enough". I've started this line of thought in this subject because I felt it would be a good first step, and that it wouldn't be mutually exclusive with either future ideas and the current system.
Isn't the condition that aspects of battle are no longer in your hands alone exactly what makes teamwork enjoyable in an MMO? For what other reasons would we play them? We count on other factors, other people. And none of those factors limit this system, seeing as the timing it would bring to use is still within the error of latency. Programming, such as through a mantle system (point-check-count-release), is also possible in order to remove latency issues in simultaneous casting. But, as simultaneous casting was never that far separate from sequential in this system to begin with, I don't see how that would be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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05-19-2012, 09:33 PMEnfarious
I think, aside from hearing another, "I like the easy buttons." There's just more opposition to change, yeah the old way was more robust, had more options, and greater potential for all the jobs/classes, but now there's less work/thought to put in to what I do. I don't want that changed, I've grown comfortable with things as they are now and I don't want to learn a new system.
Those are more of what is being contended with than getting all the old spells/abils back where they were, the dats are all still holding them exactly how they were. The mobs we fight still have access to all of them, it wouldn't be hard, but we have a player base where the majority seem to enjoy this super easy thunder thunder thunder, cyclone cyclone cyclone method of play.
Sorry Duelle but to say that this system, or any system where player positions can have beneficial effects, is better fit to a single player game is ridiculous. Tanks are always expected to keep a mob "positioned" melees are expected to be in certain positions, mages are also expected to be in their proper positions. Now asking that having those people in their places add a new dynamic is all MMO all the way. It promotes teamwork, there's that "work" thing again I know. It adds flavor to party dynamics by allowing for different playstyles and different party makeups to still yeild effective strategies.
Our current system was taken directly from 3rd person single player games, Infamous, Dante's Inferno, Dark Siders, Demon Souls. Solo Combos are about as anti team as you can get w/o saying do away with parties all together. Watching your enmity marker, another easy mode button, and spamming the same thing completely ignoring what others are doing isn't team play, it's soloing in a group of other solo players. That's single player gaming. -
05-20-2012, 05:41 AMShurrikhan
I think he was referring more to the casting sequence strategy, where more control = more effectiveness, which would be *easier* by a lot in a single player game -- not the positions, where it would honestly be harder to control AI for than players.
...In the end I think I just need to rethink the way I post stuff. Implementation isn't going to be an issue for the average reader. I'll focus on the "fun" of the ideas first next time. Still trying to figure out the best next step to make though, and how to explain it effectively... -
05-20-2012, 06:05 AMEnfarious
yeah, having to communicate what your doing and when is like practicing team work, we wouldn't want to encourage that too much more than we do now. . .
It's what macros were made for though, ensuring effective sharing of pertinent information like when your casting what. So others can adjust and work together effectively. -
05-20-2012, 06:17 AMShurrikhanI think easier would be to just use a cast-bars tracking your allies' spell casts, paired with a mantle system. They're not hard to program after all. There's no way I'm going to be hitting macros in a fight if the fight can live up to my expectations of intensity (though those are high standards, lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
My point is though, as long as you're willing to change something, often further changes will come naturally, and hint each time at a final, complete product. People just need to be less afraid of the programming work. : P
^ probably the best advice I've gotten from computer science friends. -
05-20-2012, 08:06 AMEnfariousI won't get into writing code, or what can/should go into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If hitting a macro is too much then something is wrong, it's a matter of pressing alt/ctrl along w/ 0...9 instead of just 0...9 if a system is implemented that makes that not work that's moving toward a button mash fest.
Macros, if written well can convey messages about the actions your going to take while allowing you to reduce the overall number of keystrokes needed to complete the actions, not to mention adding timing precision.
So again creating a system that makes macros not good/useful would be making a system that is more just strafe and hold "x" that's an FPS.
I really did like where the OP seemed to be headed, but this direction doesn't seem to keep in an RPG environment but more along the lines of platform/FPS -
05-20-2012, 08:32 AMDuelleYou failed to read between the lines when I mentioned benefits of not being fully committed to an element or school of magic. Having too many spells around makes the system feel disjointed. Even with options people still gravitate towards what gets them more bang for their buck, which is why every Black Mage in FFXI merited Thunder Pontency and went 5/5 Burst II. Likewise why every Red Mage that was not me went full 5/5 Ice Accuracy (whereas I went 3/5 Fire and 2/5 Ice, as I like Fire).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
Not really. It encourages a DPS rotation. In the case of PLD it creates part of the priority system for tanking. Still far from what I would call complete, though.Quote:
Solo Combos are about as anti team as you can get w/o saying do away with parties all together.
Yes, this is what I was referring to.Quote:
I think he was referring more to the casting sequence strategy, where more control = more effectiveness, which would be *easier* by a lot in a single player game -- not the positions, where it would honestly be harder to control AI for than players.
As an aside, I think you went to lengths to explain things as if they were to actually happen. This is fine up to a point, but again, I don't think it has a place in an MMORPG. If it were part of the magic system for The Last Story 2, then I could see it being interesting and having some depth.
At the same time, the base of your idea can work, but much like the initial part of your proposal would involve some pretty drastic changes. The interaction and additional effects of elemental spells should be noted and useful.
At the same time, the hard part is that you don't have a real "theme" behind casters to build on. At least, not in the way you could open with Scorch if moving or Fireball if standing still, using Pyroblast when Hot Streak procs and if you end up with multiple DoT effects on the mob can use Combustion to add an additional DoT effect that does the combined damage of ALL the other DoTs on the mob. Or opening with Frostbolt and hope it afflicts the mob with a freeze effect, cast Ice Lance if so followed by a down-ranked Frostbolt followed by an Ice Lance to create a shatter combo. The importance in both models being that abilities build on each other. Despite the disdain some show to the combo system for spells, it has taken a step in that direction. The problem is that the system is missing extra things like procs, situational spells that can be weaved in if the conditions are met and so on. -
05-20-2012, 09:50 AMShurrikhanYou're absolutely right in that current caster classes lack a "theme" as it applies to combat gameplay. However, I don't think that can be solved in a system like this alone. I also have a huge amount of respect for solo combos. And having also played a WoW mage (other favorite classes being warrior, hunter, and death knight) I know exactly what you mean there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
In the end, solo rotational strategy is about having a critical balance between what can be changed, and what can't. We push our limits to certain tiers (for a long time I was in love with the WotLK Improved Steady Shot gamble via haste using proc-trinks in a precisely manipulable fashion) in order to reach a new tactical difference (being able to fire off exactly 3 ISSs before my next CD ability, or exactly 4 given proc one or 5 given double proc, etc).
Though, that might only be true for setting oneself up in preparation for a fight. [Additionally, it's very doable without ability cooldowns, using a more analog system of gliding strength per ability and sets of abilities instead.] Either way though, it needs to stem off something larger, more intricate. WotLK's talent systems were a good example of this. Whether you like the idea of the areas of choice being identical for every player or not (I personally don't), they had sufficient complexity and enough unpredictable uses to make some truly unique playstyles. FFXIV would first need something similar. That in turn requires a new layer of depth in leveling, where FFXIV again falls short.
Though this system could add far more strategy to casting, its ideal uses are only going to come in combination with larger changes, the majority of which are probably overdue.
That said, I would never try to copy WoW's system. WoW's talents system (paired with its abilities) worked for WoW because it was WoW, not just because it's a universally powerful system. What I'd make for FFXIV would stem from Final Fantasy instead, the more fundamental or thematic the connection the better. Mechanics are made to serve a story and to serve play. Not the other way around.
Not saying that's what you seemed to be hoping for at all. I agree with everything you've said here. The last rant was only what I can call a "head's up".
In summary: Those issues are beyond the domain of this system alone. -
05-20-2012, 11:58 AMEnfariousThat will happen in this too, but it's very avoidable, all they have to do is make the base dmg for each spell equal, keep the added effects, that's an interesting idea and helps keep them all useful. The reason XI ended up all Ice was because of the base dmg scaling, and then abyssea buffs, that was flawed mechanics, and a lesson that should be learned from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I assume you mean 1>2>3; 4 > 5 > 6; 1>2>3; 7 > 8> 9; 1>2>3 when you say rotation. Mind numbing when it's down on paper. Not very engaging as a game mechanic either, unless your a fan of very simple, but if you played XI to the point of having full merits on any job pre abyssea then simple wasn't your cup of tea.Quote:
Not really. It encourages a DPS rotation. In the case of PLD it creates part of the priority system for tanking. Still far from what I would call complete, though.
Yes, this is what I was referring to.
It encourages each person to play their "individual" role, they don't work "together" a tank spams hate control, DDs spam WSs, we don't coordinate attacks for any form of "added effectiveness".
Battle Regimens were what was supposed to cover that, but they didn't work out well. I just hope they come back in a functional form, or that some other type of interconnection of WSs Spells and Abils to encourage actually playing in a coordinated way.
Yeah standing in the right place blah blah blah, so you don't get hit but again that's just individuals doing their thing, not interacting with one another for any actual effect.
The saddest thing I watched happen in XI was the failing of Skillchains and Magic Bursts, outside of static groups that were used to working together. Then the introduction of every job being able to solo skillchain, but it's been said Abyssea was the testing ground for the party/combat system for this. -
05-20-2012, 12:20 PMShurrikhanThe current combo system for certain is not engaging. He only said it was a step in the right direction. I personally see no difference between the first and second; both can be macro'ed to one or two damage-dealing buttons. There is no doubt however that solo-rotations can be engaging and intricate. It just takes a lot of factors, a lot of programming, in more than just the combat system itself. When I figure out a way to make that happen, I'll post it. I guess I've just been under a bit of a block lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
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05-20-2012, 01:03 PMDuelleI was a Prot Warrior, Ret Paladin, and transmogrification facilitated my playing a Mage. Funny how being able to swap out those weird robes for something a little more modest can encourage one to play a class they would normally not play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I disagree here. You don't need a talent system to get something similar. What you'd need is further emphasis on job traits, especially when playing as a job rather than a class.Quote:
Though, that might only be true for setting oneself up in preparation for a fight. [Additionally, it's very doable without ability cooldowns, using a more analog system of gliding strength per ability and sets of abilities instead.] Either way though, it needs to stem off something larger, more intricate. WotLK's talent systems were a good example of this. Whether you like the idea of the areas of choice being identical for every player or not (I personally don't), they had sufficient complexity and enough unpredictable uses to make some truly unique playstyles. FFXIV would first need something similar. That in turn requires a new layer of depth in leveling, where FFXIV again falls short.
I wouldn't copy it, but take a look at how it achieved balance in the form of involved gameplay on a level that did not have you losing to the latency boss (which screwed over skillchains in FFXI for anything more complicated than "Open WS and Close WS" with nothing in between), balanced raid comps that could have class stacking but very rarely encouraged it, and paced progression that didn't involve our current 0.000000001% drop rates. Draw inspiration, borrow what works, tweak it to fit your setting and move on.Quote:
That said, I would never try to copy WoW's system. WoW's talents system (paired with its abilities) worked for WoW because it was WoW, not just because it's a universally powerful system.
I understand this, but it also brings up something I've been mentioning for the last two years: certains parts of Final Fantasy do not work in the context of an MMORPG. Tanaka tried to stick to "Final Fantasy" when designing XI's mechanics, and what we got was a botched resource system, some jobs being more useful than others, the "I spent 50% of my time AFK resting my health and the other 50% AFK auto attacking" joke, and Refresh-botting. Lore and job-wise I have every bit of confidence in the Final Fantasy IP. Mechanics-wise...not so much; not after seeing two of the more popular jobs in the series treated the way they were in XI (Red Mages and Summoners).Quote:
What I'd make for FFXIV would stem from Final Fantasy instead, the more fundamental or thematic the connection the better. Mechanics are made to serve a story and to serve play. Not the other way around.
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05-20-2012, 02:42 PMShurrikhan
Haha, yeah I probably should have mentioned that I wouldn't copy FFXI either. I wouldn't make any combo that requires another player's action as a dependent factor with an exact difference on your next cast. I'd just make a difference based on the proximity of their landing. You can still achieve things similar to skill-chaining by using a party-loading (mantle) system, but it requires sub-targeting. I.e. I load "ability A" onto you, aimed at X. Your next "ability D" has additional effect Z. His "ability D" could likewise cause something in return for me, but I don't have to wait for it to have my ability gain that additional effect. It's set immediately, to be used at will (within reasonable time limits) by the other. You could say it's still partly time-sequence dependent, but you're not waiting for that variable to come back. You're free to do whatever you like in the meantime. "Combos" won't be cancelled by doing *anything but "ability D"*, etc. You just could potentially do something contradictory to your earlier intentions, but that's possible with or without "combos" anyways.
(I probably should be more careful to use this term loosely, as "combos" usually do mean that each step is directly related to and only possible to an exact ability, rather than the execution of a purpose using whatever ability as a means to do that most precisely.)
To the latter half, I think something distinctly FF could be made without those problems. I honestly think it was done wrongly. I know that sounds arrogant before knowing how exactly I'd do it. I guess it's just a gut feeling where it seems logically ridiculous to believe that there's no better way.
And goddamn I'd love to see Red Mages especially done right...
And yeah, it is hard to beat WoW in terms of balanced intricacy, though I'd love to do exactly that. And it really is a shame the last two expansions (Cata and upcoming) seem so hell-bent on simplification. But, that's irrelevant. Sorry for digressing. -
05-20-2012, 10:36 PMEnfarious
What you, unless I'm mistaken, describe is the battle regimen system, someone would:
Open/Start a regimen
Add a skill/spell
then others, who wanted to, would add their skills/spells
Person who initiated would then execute
Order mattered for the sake of achieving different effects, and different skills/spells in different orders achieved different effects. There was a time limit imposed on adding commands to the regimen queue so you couldn't just leave it open from the start of a fight and use it when ever. It had the potential to be a great system. Sadly the execution of regimens didn't work right, there was no AA, and once you started/added to the regimen you were unable to act until it was executed. It failed ...
In the longer fights where damage mounts mages couldn't add spells because it stopped them from healing, it slowed DPS with melee just standing still, tanks couldn't get involved because they needed to spam skills to hold hate.
Assuming they "fix" those things and return it in 2.0, which has been mentioned in a few places, by the dev notes. It still has the potential, as long as it doesn't lock us out of being able to act in other ways, and now with AA it wouldn't completely ruin DPS anymore. -
05-21-2012, 04:32 AMShurrikhanThen this is not a battle regimen system, as I never meant for it to be. I just said I wouldn't make dependency locks. At no point will you be forced to wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
Edit: if I were to implement anything that I'd call a Battle Regimens system, it'd be different in niche. It'd kind of be like cross-talents with a certain other member of your team, that's quickly and easily set up, but with potentially great depth for their use. Something like "Shatter lines" that causes Ice to shatter for particle damage with relatively little melted when a single count of heat is added by Lightning.
More on edit when I get back. -
05-21-2012, 04:46 AMDuelleI wouldn't be so worried about them copying XI if the battle designer from XI had stayed there instead of him being moved to work on XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You could also take the approach Dragon Age took to combined spells, but you'd need to design spells in a way that they had a lingering effect.Quote:
I wouldn't make any combo that requires another player's action as a dependent factor with an exact difference on your next cast. I'd just make a difference based on the proximity of their landing. You can still achieve things similar to skill-chaining by using a party-loading (mantle) system, but it requires sub-targeting.
You're a better man than I for having more patience. I have something of a threshold for experimentation and innovation, and once that thershold is surpassed I start saying "stop horsing around and just use something that works". Granted, I'm being lenient with this game so far because up until Yoshida took over I haven't seen SE so much as try different things to see what sticks and what doesn't.Quote:
To the latter half, I think something distinctly FF could be made without those problems. I honestly think it was done wrongly. I know that sounds arrogant before knowing how exactly I'd do it. I guess it's just a gut feeling where it seems logically ridiculous to believe that there's no better way.
Indeed. Hopefully locking RDM to a rapier if they implement Fencer will solve half of the job's problems.Quote:
And goddamn I'd love to see Red Mages especially done right...
*Ahem*
Trying to get back into the topic, if you want to add complexity to magic then yes, spells should build on each other in some way. My original suggestion a while back was build up mechanics per element (back then, I was under the assumption BLM would get all elements like they normally do). Something like opening with Burn on a mob to give them a DoT effect, then having all fire spells gain bonus damage from Burn being on the target mob. On ocassion you get a proc that makes, say, Flare instant-cast and reduces the MP cost of Flare by 25% (assuming Flare would be a very expensive spell that will quickly drain you of MP if used outside of procs). Add a mechanic where you get MP back (either by a proc that can be consummed instead of using it on the instant-cast Flare). Add Meltdown as a modified spell that decreases physical and magic defense by 5%.
Thus, BLM's gameplay if they like Fire would be using Fire spells comboing into each other (Fire => Fira => Firaga => Firaja), keeping Burn up on the target to up personal DPS, keep Meltdown up on the target to increase raid DPS, if they get their proc they can throw in Flare, if short on MP they can consume their proc to get MP back instead of using it on Flare.
Problem is, this is just one element out of six. Playing to the elemental wheel is very risky because then you make things very complicated with little reward in return.
I guess we could try to change things to make the elements interact with each other, though. Open with Frost (increases ice resistance but decreasing fire resistance) for the DoT effect but the effect has charges. Like say, Frost when afflicting a mob has 4 charges, thus boosts incoming fire damage 4 times before the effect has to be applied again. Can still have stuff like Meltdown as a debuff to be applied by the BLM.
Of course, if left as an open debuff, that means a BLM can use Frost, then 4 BLMs can volley Firaja on the mob to consume the debuff and do a ton of damage at the same time. By the same token, if Regise the BLM is setting up his fire combo to consume all 4 Frost charges, but Duelle the Red Mage comes in and uses the Fencer-derived Flame Thrust in the middle of Regise's casting, Duelle ends up denying Regise part of his potential damage. I'd still like to see the ancient magic-type spells as spells that should realistically be used within procs but can be used outside of procs for a higher resource cost. -
05-21-2012, 09:49 AMShurrikhan
I think I got something!
Btw, just to clarify, things like Burn already covered a lot of that function. Somehow I assumed that people would get that off the technical details (i.e. plasma medium, Burn flame potency, etc), because I'm dense.
Take this for an example: the more fire damage you use at one time (treating dps as an actual live number; the derivative is as important as the damage itself), the more heat is produced in that moment, dissipating thereafter (with the dissipation reduced by adding more heat [both by slightly resetting timers and by the obvious fact that heat is added]. I could rack up heat so that each application of heat is improving the next in a steady barrage before heat is lost. I could have the full party blast one, then sustain the lingering damage of the cast with Bio--Aeroga with all that damage over time being dealt at high burn and without escaping the Bio.
Lengthier example:
When attacking 5 enemies with 5 casters [4 Conj, 1 Thaum] I could soak the middle one first, blast him with lightning for high heat enough to evaporate the water into steam, set him on fire while the heat's still up, Aeroga at different overlapping fields across mobs at high heat to distribute burning to the others, Dia the one in the middle, turning the overlapping fields into a larger, sustained whirlwind, use the basic fire spell into the AoE system periodically to conserve stamina, then Thundara the outside 4 with one cast on each, to bring them up to a heat enough to hit the plasma medium, swapping all heat to the middle through Thunder paired with the Dia, swapping to Bio during the cast, literally blowing up the first target for disintegrated armor damage and leaving blood.
From there, something like...
Cast Reflect on the system (designated by Bio), then blast Thunder from near the remaining 4 enemies to rebound the lightning damage + heat onto the other 4 enemies (who's heat will have only been at plasma medium for a split second or two). Finish them off, mostly doable by the damage over time over the next two seconds...
Or, taking advantage of the blood:
Target the other 4 from within the Bio, cast Water at them, extracting the full heat under water medium (heat will cause it to change mediums on next interaction [Bio delayed that]), getting heat through that way for increased fire damage and the damage over time until heat dissipates.
A lot of random shit thrown in there, including a returned stamina measurement (more like FFXIII alpha ATB than anything FFXIV's used), Reflect, and that Dia acts as a drawing center for nearby spells in addition to dealing damage over time based on Light and Bio holds a system in place while dealing damage over time based on lack of Light. But, that's just an example of gameplay.
Things like Meltdown would come from melting enemy armor, more literally. Plasma and very hot water, especially with solid mass in it (prior earth spells melted), would do well for that.
As for MP returns... I think that would come from something like elements within the caster's mind as well. Kind of like... Mindsets fulfilled by TP, that could be extracted for some purpose. I'll keep going when I get back, hopefully with this more clear to me. Sorry I only have a few minutes to write this. I'm sure it shows in the quality. : (
(Other members put off departure for a bit.)
**Yes, this is by now departing from the original idea, separate. I'm trying to create the place it fits in a larger picture that's still vague to me, and this came up when writing what I saw. This won't come up in any serious posts until I've at least mostly completed that "full picture".
My only point here was that at least a WoW-equivalent level of intricacy can be achieved from use of the smaller factors. Paired with angles, and enemy AI responses to derivative damage-dealing (the intensity over time), elements, and patterns of attack, it can be more than WoW-level.
If I also add in mechanics that have each member of the team trying to fulfill their own production of power as well, rather than being identical in both group (large-scale) and individual (small-scale) purpose, it can go way beyond that even. However, I wouldn't gun for that except coincidentally. I'm looking for aspects of the game to fit every part of it, such that each piece fits the whole as to be greater than the sum, etc, etc. -
05-21-2012, 10:38 AMDeltara
I would be happy with a simple system.
Say, any Tier 1 spell can combo into any Tier 2 spell, providing different debuffs/effects depending on the combos.
So maybe fire >> fira would be for maximum fire damage and no debuff on the mob.
But fire >> blizzara would be low damage with a powerful paralyze debuff on the target.
Or fire >> thundara would be moderate damage with a short stun effect on the target.
Something simple enough for everyone to understand, but complex enough that you don't get bored with thunder combo's all the time.