DO NOT REMOVE HISSATSU: KAITEN

Please for the love of all that is holy. Who thought of this? Kaiten is a really fun, rewarding oGCD to use. It is the only separator from mindless gauge dump on Hissatsu: Shinten.

Here, let me name some other abilities that u can remove/merge instead:

1) Shoha 2, slap some splash on Shoha

2) Hissatsu: Guren, slap some splash on Hissatsu: Senei

3) Hissatsu: Kyoten, slap some splash on Hissatsu: Shinten

4) merge regular kaeshi follow up with iaijutsu

5) merge ikishoten with the ogi abilities (mutually exclusive, one should replace the other)

I'd conisder abilities that r literally NEVER used prime candidates for removal as opposed to one that is very popular and used every time!


PS: I know there r probably a ton of threads on this topic. I don't care. This cannot go through.


EDIT:

Im going to try to compile all the reasons y kaiten should not be removed, solely based on the ability's merit.

1) Animation and soundeffect. Both of these r stellar, make the ability incredibly satisfying in preparation for what is to come. It also flows smoothly into ur following GCD.

2) Kaiten is an iconic and integral part of SAM. It is acquired at lvl52. Very early it gains the identity of enhancing ur most powerful moves. Shinten in comparison is only acquired at lvl62. Im pretty sure there is no button bloat yet in HW. Low lvl (synced down) SAM will lose much of its kit and have nothing else to show for it.

3) There is meaningful choice between Kaiten and Shinten. Different kenki cost, and different forms of output. Kaiten is a 50% boost in potency on the next GCD, whereas Shinten is a flat 270 potency while being 25% more expensive. Both have their own ideal moments of use, and thus introduce kenki management. It is essential for a SAM player to make sure they have sufficient gauge to buff their upcoming big hitters with Kaiten. One cannot mindlessly dump gauge with Shinten, and sadly that is exactly the future we r facing with the proposed removal of Kaiten. SAM gameplay will become boring, dull and stale.

4) Love. I love this ability. Many do. It is a very misguided idea to remove such an ability outright, especially when there r many much better candidates. U r running arguably the biggest MMO at this point (no idea how WOW is doing nowdays), u should really know better. I'm disappointed.

Especially don't remove Kaiten for "Button Bloat" because that's just tone-deaf at best and willfully destroying the class at worst.

Especially when such an abomination like Shoha 2 showed up.

Reposting this in a few places in an attempt to get traction, maybe

Kaiten is not a button bloat issue in the keybinding sense

In the slides, the JP text uses the word "操作量”, which is more equivalent to action bloat, in the sense that it is an extra action to press before iaijutsus.

However, in this vein, Kaiten isn't an action bloat issue either, and removing kaiten does NOT alleviate this issue (which doesn't really exists in the first place imo)

In removing Kaiten, the kenki will just be spent on Shinten instead, which still takes up an oGCD slot, and is objectively less interesting.
Granted, I'm not saying pressing Kaiten is some 200 IQ move, but it is still an active decision to be made, whether to spam Shinten or conserve Kenki for Kaiten.
Which is funny because, going from 4.0 to 5.0, they added Tsubame Gaeshi and the gutted Hagakure to discourage Shinten spam, and now we are going back to it.

The only time Kaiten action bloat is a minor issue is when, during a 2min burst window, you are setting up Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi Setsugekka -> Sen GCD -> Higanbana -> Ogi Namikiri with 1 stack of meditation. In which after Higanbana you will reach 3 stack meditation, forcing a Shoha cast, and also having to Kaiten the Ogi Namikiri. Higanbana being a cast means you cannot double weave (without clipping) during that slot thus you have to introduce another GCD to weave the Kaiten, or modify the sequence of the skills.

This can be alleviated in so many ways that does not require the removal of Kaiten.
For example, letting mediation go up to 5 stacks (with Shoha being usable at 3) as to have some buffer zone. This even adds some more optimization depth as you can choose where to place your Shoha.
Or simply make it so that Ogi Namikiri does not require Kaiten, as we got the "sword twirling powerup" with Ikishoten already.

IMO, the decision to remove Kaiten is a bad solution to an irrelevant problem, and this isn't even an agrument regarding the aesthetics and class fantasy of the skill.
For all the transparency and communication the devs do, job balancing isn't part of them.

If they remove Kaiten they may as well turn Shinten / Kyuten into a CD similar to Bloodletter / Rain of Death on Bard, there is no point in saving the kenki in Samurai's kit, as you can and just should spend it as soon as available.
You don't even have a personal buff window to spend resources in unlike Dancer (so why save it? minus raid buffs ofc but most are 2 minutes tho), and the one CD that NEEDS kenki gets all it needs and more from another CD that lines up in the EXACT SAME 2 MINUTE WINDOW.
Removing Kaiten just makes kenki as a resource irrelevant. There is no reason for kenki to exist taking up space on screen since you will just press Shinten as soon as it lights up (same goes for shoha).

It's been said before and I'll say it again, if they want to reduce button / action bloat they can:
- Upgrade Shoha 1 into 2 with falloff JUST LIKE Paladin's Expacion
- Change Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri / Kaeshi Namikiri upon activation JUST LIKE Gunbreakers Savage Fang Combo being literally one button now
- Get rid of one of the Hissatu abilities and give it a falloff aoe, we don't need two buttons sharing the same 2 min CD, especially since we barely use one or the other in most of content.
It's very disappointing that many of these solutions have already been implemented into other jobs and we get this left field solution no one asked for to a problem no one cared about.

I'm still a bit surprised they introduce new AoE variant but then complain about button bloat.
It's exactly their design of choice that makes actual button bloat and they play ostrich, burying their head in the sand.

SAM was very fine during SB, no one asked for a single target version of Guren but they still added it.
Addition of Senei only resulted in near 0 usage of Guren in extreme/savage/ultimate content.

AoE variant are not even an engaging choice.
They're as engaging as choosing to use a Water move on a Fire type rather than a Grass move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenon_S

Reposting this in a few places in an attempt to get traction, maybe

Kaiten is not a button bloat issue in the keybinding sense

In the slides, the JP text uses the word "操作量”, which is more equivalent to action bloat, in the sense that it is an extra action to press before iaijutsus.

However, in this vein, Kaiten isn't an action bloat issue either, and removing kaiten does NOT alleviate this issue (which doesn't really exists in the first place imo)

In removing Kaiten, the kenki will just be spent on Shinten instead, which still takes up an oGCD slot, and is objectively less interesting.
Granted, I'm not saying pressing Kaiten is some 200 IQ move, but it is still an active decision to be made, whether to spam Shinten or conserve Kenki for Kaiten.
Which is funny because, going from 4.0 to 5.0, they added Tsubame Gaeshi and the gutted Hagakure to discourage Shinten spam, and now we are going back to it.

The only time Kaiten action bloat is a minor issue is when, during a 2min burst window, you are setting up Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi Setsugekka -> Sen GCD -> Higanbana -> Ogi Namikiri with 1 stack of meditation. In which after Higanbana you will reach 3 stack meditation, forcing a Shoha cast, and also having to Kaiten the Ogi Namikiri. Higanbana being a cast means you cannot double weave (without clipping) during that slot thus you have to introduce another GCD to weave the Kaiten, or modify the sequence of the skills.

This can be alleviated in so many ways that does not require the removal of Kaiten.
For example, letting mediation go up to 5 stacks (with Shoha being usable at 3) as to have some buffer zone. This even adds some more optimization depth as you can choose where to place your Shoha.
Or simply make it so that Ogi Namikiri does not require Kaiten, as we got the "sword twirling powerup" with Ikishoten already.

IMO, the decision to remove Kaiten is a bad solution to an irrelevant problem, and this isn't even an agrument regarding the aesthetics and class fantasy of the skill.
For all the transparency and communication the devs do, job balancing isn't part of them.

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action bloat/button bloat mean the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

action bloat/button bloat mean the same thing.

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Not necessarily.

Action bloat refers to the amount of buttons you're pressing whereas button bloat is the amount on your hotbar. It seems the devs are wanting to reduce how many buttons you're pressing in the opener. Which makes me wonder if they'll also be changing how much Kenki Samurai generates. Otherwise, this change doesn't make any sense as instead of pressing Kaiten you'll just press Shinten. So the "action bloat" hasn't been reduced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Not necessarily.

Action bloat refers to the amount of buttons you're pressing whereas button bloat is the amount on your hotbar. It seems the devs are wanting to reduce how many buttons you're pressing in the opener. Which makes me wonder if they'll also be changing how much Kenki Samurai generates. Otherwise, this change doesn't make any sense as instead of pressing Kaiten you'll just press Shinten. So the "action bloat" hasn't been reduced.

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SAM isn't even the worst offender in terms of a bloated opener, heck I think it's fine as is.

Added a section in the OP on y kaiten should not be removed based on the ability's merit.

Ty for the comments, keep it coming guys!

First ever post just to say, PLEASE do not remove Hissatsu: Kaiten. It will be utterly deleterious to the job.

Keep making noise about this. We may not be able to stop Kaiten from being removed in 6.1, but they walked back the Hagakure removal in early ShB so they can walk this back in a future patch too.

Adding to the context of this, and addressing a common counterargument ("it's just pushing a button for damage"), removal of Kaiten is important not just for the mechanical enjoyment of the job, but for the feel of it. Removing Kaiten is similar to removing Continuation from GNB. Part of the allure of the GNB savage combo is the feel of "pulling the trigger" via Continuation. Yes, you're just alternating between two buttons, back and forth, but it feels very good. It feels powerful, the sfx/vfx are on point, you're rewarded with good damage and when you pull off a clean double-weaved NM burst window it feels absolutely baller. Kaiten fits a very similar niche; fitting it in at the perfect times while your character is a flurry of slashes and stabs just feels amazing. Removal of that feeling is the worst possible thing you could do to SAM as a job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Egwyn

First ever post just to say, PLEASE do not remove Hissatsu: Kaiten. It will be utterly deleterious to the job.

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Ty for adding ur voice to the crowd!

Not a single SAM has ever complained about Kaiten. The devs keep making these wierd, needless changes that quite literally nobody asks for. Where do they get their feedback for the game from because it's clearly not from the actual community.

Another against the removal of Kaiten! Walk it back! Don't let this issue die