so why the devs never use 90% of the content for end game?

all the "open world" maps. all the older dungeons .older raids. why not upgrade them for the cornet end game lvl and make the tome grind a more fun thing where you don't just run the same 3 dungeons for half a year.:confused:
what you think of this?

Oh, they do, usually about the time the weapon grind gets released.

I've still got at least one Bozja weapon in the "run 70 dungeons as an alternate method to get clusters" stage.

1. I think you forget not everyone playing is at "end game"
2. it is a bit more than "flipping a switch"
3. its very common, especially in MMO's that older content is often not used as much, if at all. I was surprised when Bozja used so much of previous areas for the relics.

they are hardly going to rewrite everything from the last 10 years because you feel a bit bored.

We run the same dungeons for 4 months, not half a year, then a new one gets added. There are other options such as hunts or other roulettes.

We reuse older areas for relic weapon grinds, quests and gathering. The older hunts still give endgame tomestones (currently aphorism).

Older dungeons and raids still give endgame tomestones through roulettes and they are reused for relic weapon grinds and moogle tomestone events.

(All of this content is still relevant when you catch up on old content that you missed such as old sidequests and old grinds)

I shudder to think about FATE farming for Atma for the first relic. Look at the last relic. They had us doing HW FATEs, level 60 dungeons, 24 mans, etc. That's where they reuse content.

They would do well to look at how the likes of WoW, ESO and Lost Ark make use of their open worlds. Encouraging players to explore and uncover hidden secrets isn't a bad thing and helps make FFXIV's zones have more relevance beyond occasional MSQ quests and gathering nodes.

Idk I just wish there was more of a reason to get people out in the open world rather than sitting around Sharlaya or Limsa. It's kind of sad when you go to a zone and there's three people there, maybe if you're lucky you'll see a map group, or a hunt train will come by.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Idk I just wish there was more of a reason to get people out in the open world rather than sitting around Sharlaya or Limsa. It's kind of sad when you go to a zone and there's three people there, maybe if you're lucky you'll see a map group, or a hunt train will come by.

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They TRY to do this with the FATE Gemstones, Hunts, and Treasure Maps, but that ends up only helping a little. I agree with you and would love if they figured something out to make FATEs more attractive.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

1. I think you forget not everyone playing is at "end game"
2. it is a bit more than "flipping a switch"
3. its very common, especially in MMO's that older content is often not used as much, if at all. I was surprised when Bozja used so much of previous areas for the relics.

they are hardly going to rewrite everything from the last 10 years because you feel a bit bored.

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i know its common , just not a good thing. yes not all at end game and for them its not a problem. but i wish that for the day to day grind we got mero things that are relevant

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

They TRY to do this with the FATE Gemstones, Hunts, and Treasure Maps, but that ends up only helping a little. I agree with you and would love if they figured something out to make FATEs more attractive.

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and some what fail as this things are never updated.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

why not udgust them for the cornet end game lvl and make the tome grind a more fun thing where you don't just run the same 3 dungeons for half a year.:confused:

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Because this amounts to "Just do more work." Adjusting old content to scale isn't something that just gets done overnight. The work required to accomplish this would 1) mean that you're sacrificing new content for scaled old content, and 2) have to be re-adjusted every patch to continue to scale with growing stats.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They would do well to look at how the likes of WoW, ESO and Lost Ark make use of their open worlds. Encouraging players to explore and uncover hidden secrets isn't a bad thing and helps make FFXIV's zones have more relevance beyond occasional MSQ quests and gathering nodes.

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I don't know ... exploration in the MMOs you've mentioned is pretty, um, down on the list of things to do. And if it has some rewards to make it worth doing, there are add-ons (WoW/ESO) to tell you exactly where to go, or you can look it up on wowhead or the ESO/Lost Ark equivalents, so it's not really "exploration". It's making a list and checking it twice.

I'm assuming Theodric finished the sightseeing log without consulting one of the many websites that list every one of them.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They would do well to look at how the likes of WoW, ESO and Lost Ark make use of their open worlds. Encouraging players to explore and uncover hidden secrets isn't a bad thing and helps make FFXIV's zones have more relevance beyond occasional MSQ quests and gathering nodes.

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Yes, like the blue mage. With this job every player did thoroughly rediscover every little details of the overworld, going from some mobs to another, thinking with excitement "how come i did never see this place even existed ?" and "i wonder what this mob attacks are, maybe i will learn a good skill ?".

Just joking, everyone did watch at some guide to get rid of "exploration" and "hidden secrets" as fast as possible.

Congrats on completing the entire game I guess.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I don't know ... exploration in the MMOs you've mentioned is pretty, um, down on the list of things to do. And if it has some rewards to make it worth doing, there are add-ons (WoW/ESO) to tell you exactly where to go, or you can look it up on wowhead or the ESO/Lost Ark equivalents, so it's not really "exploration". It's making a list and checking it twice.

I'm assuming Theodric finished the sightseeing log without consulting one of the many websites that list every one of them.

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It’s weird to write it off as not exploration just because you can look it up. There’s still dungeons you can go and explore. People who don’t like overworld exploring can look it up cool, but the option is at least there for people who want to explore and actually have things to explore, whereas that is severely missing from 14. I guess savage and ultimate raiding isn’t really raiding since there’s addons that can do everything for you and buyable clears exist?

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Because this amounts to "Just do more work." Adjusting old content to scale isn't something that just gets done overnight. The work required to accomplish this would 1) mean that you're sacrificing new content for scaled old content, and 2) have to be re-adjusted every patch to continue to scale with growing stats.

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the game is out for how much years? do it over time no one say give it to me now. but do it.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Yes, like the blue mage. With this job every player did thoroughly rediscover every little details of the overworld, going from some mobs to another, thinking with excitement "how come i did never see this place even existed ?" and "i wonder what this mob attacks are, maybe i will learn a good skill ?".

Just joking, everyone did watch at some guide to get rid of "exploration" and "hidden secrets" as fast as possible.

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so because some people "cheat" we cant have nice things?

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

so because some people "cheat" we cant have nice things?

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The problem is that we are not talking of "cheating" in the way it is usually meant, like only 2% of players doing it while the other 98% don't. But the other way around, 98% doing it and 2% not.

The massive usage of guides and the speed at which the new information is shared between players nowadays has lead to "exploration" and "hidden secrets" being hugely problematic to implement in a mmo when it comes to trying to keep the fun of discovering things by yourself intact.

Let's take again the blue mage example. When this job was new i was like "let's try to find things myself !", but the fun i was expecting did quickly disappear because of :

- having to disable my FC chat where too much people were telling what to do ;
- same with discussion Linkshells ;
- not being able to open the PF anymore to avoid to be spoiled by "this skill on this mob" partys ;
- all that for in the end being spoiled anyway when seeing flocks of players flying to the same place and farming the same mob.

Not really an enjoyable experience.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

The problem is that we are not talking of "cheating" in the way it is usually meant, like only 2% of players doing it while the other 98% don't. But the other way around, 98% doing it and 2% not.

The massive usage of guides and the speed at which the new information is shared between players nowadays has lead to "exploration" and "hidden secrets" being hugely problematic to implement in a mmo when it comes to trying to keep the fun of discovering things by yourself intact.

Let's take again the blue mage example. When this job was new i was like "let's try to find things myself !", but the fun i was expecting did quickly disappear because of :

- having to disable my FC chat where too much people were telling what to do ;
- same with discussion Linkshells ;
- not being able to open the PF anymore to avoid to be spoiled by "this skill on this mob" partys ;
- all that for in the end being spoiled anyway when seeing flocks of players flying to the same place and farming the same mob.

Not really an enjoyable experience.

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so why got any mechanics in any content at all if people just look it up. make each boss stand in place doing dps and the players standing in place doing dps. why all the moving around ? looks fun? if some want to not play the game let them. but giver to the one that do want to PLAY A GAME. like look at gw2 , there guides but at the same time lots of exploration to do.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I don't know ... exploration in the MMOs you've mentioned is pretty, um, down on the list of things to do. And if it has some rewards to make it worth doing, there are add-ons (WoW/ESO) to tell you exactly where to go, or you can look it up on wowhead or the ESO/Lost Ark equivalents, so it's not really "exploration". It's making a list and checking it twice.

I'm assuming Theodric finished the sightseeing log without consulting one of the many websites that list every one of them.

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Why does it matter if some people resort to a guide to find out how to do something? How is that any different to people choosing to look at a guide before stepping into a raid?

A large part of the appeal of fantasy settings resides in exploration and immersion. FFXIV struggles immensely with that by virtue of having very little reason to engage with the open world.

Not everybody makes use of a guide - nor is all open world content even based around using one. See the way in which a player can pick a direction and run in ESO and find treasure chests, thieves troves and skyshards amongst other things.

One of my favourite quests in ARR was hidden - involving handing over an item to an NPC in exchange for a minion. I stumbled across it by chance and to my knowledge there's only been one other quest like it since - in Il Mheg.

Equally, I had a lot of fun back when I played WoW and stumbled across hidden quests through item drops or delving into hidden cave entrances. Perhaps it would be best for some not to assume how others play, especially if they're advocating for something they're actively passionate about.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

They TRY to do this with the FATE Gemstones, Hunts, and Treasure Maps, but that ends up only helping a little. I agree with you and would love if they figured something out to make FATEs more attractive.

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Fates are boring because they're lifeless and they suck. They don't change or impact the world in anyway at all. Oh hey mobs are attacking a settlement. Kill them all or ignore them it makes no difference.

Treasure maps kinda meh. When the big rewards are tied into instances content like canals, aquopolis or others. It's hardly open world content at all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s weird to write it off as not exploration just because you can look it up. There’s still dungeons you can go and explore. People who don’t like overworld exploring can look it up cool, but the option is at least there for people who want to explore and actually have things to explore, whereas that is severely missing from 14. I guess savage and ultimate raiding isn’t really raiding since there’s addons that can do everything for you and buyable clears exist?

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Can you though? All those dungeons and things are instances content disconnected from the open world.

I mean how cool would it be if you could actually go mining in the copper bell mines or something like that?

Could be in a group of players running through to kill a boss and spot random people just mining away as you make your way through..

This used to be one of my favorite things about XI in its day. Nearly everything was open world and it made the world so alive. Never knew what you'd see as you went from place to place.. could be running through a zone and come across people in an exp party or fighting a boss that you might never have seen before. Or hunting a notorious monster for a strong piece of gear.. the world was always full of People.

14 by comparison is a barren wasteland. I might occasionally spot someone on the way to the same gathering node I am but thats usually it. If I'm really lucky I might see an s rank being fought. But they die in 30 seconds so that's hardly an interesting fight to watch...

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Yes, like the blue mage. With this job every player did thoroughly rediscover every little details of the overworld, going from some mobs to another, thinking with excitement "how come i did never see this place even existed ?" and "i wonder what this mob attacks are, maybe i will learn a good skill ?".

Just joking, everyone did watch at some guide to get rid of "exploration" and "hidden secrets" as fast as possible.

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Like they do with raids? What's your point? Everything in this game can be boiled down to just following a guide. May as well turn it into a visual novel, in that case, and strip out all gameplay elements, because you can use a guide.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

They TRY to do this with the FATE Gemstones, Hunts, and Treasure Maps, but that ends up only helping a little. I agree with you and would love if they figured something out to make FATEs more attractive.

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When I first started playing I though FATEs were the greatest thing until I actually tried them. They're subpar when it comes to exp and even the revamped fates don't offer much. In the time it takes to farm gemstones for mats I can just go kill the mobs or farm the mats and get 3x as much. The rewards we got this time in EW are sad to say the least. We got boxes, all of Garlemald to pull from for inspiration and we got boxes....

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I don't know ... exploration in the MMOs you've mentioned is pretty, um, down on the list of things to do. And if it has some rewards to make it worth doing, there are add-ons (WoW/ESO) to tell you exactly where to go, or you can look it up on wowhead or the ESO/Lost Ark equivalents, so it's not really "exploration". It's making a list and checking it twice.

I'm assuming Theodric finished the sightseeing log without consulting one of the many websites that list every one of them.

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This is like saying SE should stop making Savage Raids because you can find guide videos on Youtube. Or stop making Sightseeing logs, hunts, etc. because people will more than likely use third-party tools to aid them in doing them.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

FFXIV struggles immensely with that by virtue of having very little reason to engage with the open world.

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FATEs.
Daily hunts.
Monster trains.
Materials farming.
Role-play.
Parties at the beach.
Sightseeing logs.
Screenshots.

There are things to do in the open world. That they don't appeal to those who are jaded in a "been there, done that, so I don't need to do it anymore" kind of way does not equal "[players] have very little reason to engage with the open world". The reasons are there already. Participation is optional.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Role-play.
Parties at the beach.
Screenshots.

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I am questionable about counting these things -- as they dont really interact with the open world but more use them as a prop for their own drive (especially since three of these are more server dependent than anything else). I think what Theodoric is asking for is more open World content or more meaningful content with FATEs and Hunts than just what they are now.

EDIT: Also parties at beaches and RP are mostly also the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Fates are boring because they're lifeless and they suck. They don't change or impact the world in anyway at all. Oh hey mobs are attacking a settlement. Kill them all or ignore them it makes no difference.

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A suggestion: don't ever play Guild Wars 2. Their equivalent of FATEs is exactly as you describe, yet it is considered by players as one of the primary reasons they enjoy the game, especially the harder events that requires many players.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Fates are boring because they're lifeless and they suck. They don't change or impact the world in anyway at all. Oh hey mobs are attacking a settlement. Kill them all or ignore them it makes no difference.

Treasure maps kinda meh. When the big rewards are tied into instances content like canals, aquopolis or others. It's hardly open world content at all.



Can you though? All those dungeons and things are instances content disconnected from the open world.

I mean how cool would it be if you could actually go mining in the copper bell mines or something like that?

Could be in a group of players running through to kill a boss and spot random people just mining away as you make your way through..

This used to be one of my favorite things about XI in its day. Nearly everything was open world and it made the world so alive. Never knew what you'd see as you went from place to place.. could be running through a zone and come across people in an exp party or fighting a boss that you might never have seen before. Or hunting a notorious monster for a strong piece of gear.. the world was always full of People.

14 by comparison is a barren wasteland. I might occasionally spot someone on the way to the same gathering node I am but thats usually it. If I'm really lucky I might see an s rank being fought. But they die in 30 seconds so that's hardly an interesting fight to watch...

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There are instanced dungeons and then, if i remember correctly there were a few that were pretty close to non-instanced, where anyone could enter, there wasn’t a set limit so it was essentially overworld exploration, as the places themselves had their own things to explore and weren’t hallway simulator. There were also like, what i believe to be the equivalent of at the very least trial bosses out in the overworld, which i never really saw get one shot like hunts do. I did a few with a friend and they were actually really fun and challenging as they had actual mechanics to watch out for. Eso just feels much more alive to me in comparison in the overworld at least. You not only have a vast amount of players around either getting materials or doing npc quests, but there’s numerous npc encampments, there’s random npc events where like, you may see two npc mages chatting and then teleport off somewhere.

FFXIV is not an open world game. The instanced structure should probably have clued you in to this fact.

Even in open world games, however, zones still have a finite lifespan. Elden Ring was the best open world experience that I've had in a long time, and even there you'll find that backtracking to earlier zones feels largely trivial even if there's a missed achievement or boss that you're going after for completion purposes. That's a function of the game experience - when you've 'conquered' a zone and filled in the map with waypoints, it ceases to feel dangerous (even moreso when you're able to fly). Scaling up mobs does nothing to change this feeling. I'm not really sure why Warcraft was ever mentioned as something to aspire to here, because it was pretty much built on top of the carcasses of dead zones.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

FFXIV is not an open world game. The instanced structure should probably have clued you in to this fact.

Even in open world games, however, zones still have a finite lifespan. Elden Ring was the best open world experience that I've had in a long time, and even there you'll find that backtracking to earlier zones feels largely trivial even if there's a missed achievement or boss that you're going after for completion purposes. That's a function of the game experience - when you've 'conquered' a zone and filled in the map with waypoints, it ceases to feel dangerous (even moreso when you're able to fly). Scaling up mobs does nothing to change this feeling. I'm not really sure why Warcraft was ever mentioned as something to aspire to here, because it was pretty much built on top of the carcasses of dead zones.

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There’s games that mix both an open world and instanced areas and blends them in smoothly where you have reasons to go to old areas and to explore but then also features things like instanced raids or dungeons. If other mmo’s can do both i don’t see why 14 can’t.

They should update the challenge log with more interesting rewards other than a tiny amount of gil and some exp, always wanted more of a weekly WT for open world stuff.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

A suggestion: don't ever play Guild Wars 2. Their equivalent of FATEs is exactly as you describe, yet it is considered by players as one of the primary reasons they enjoy the game, especially the harder events that requires many players.

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its a joke? fates in gw2 don't impact things? monsters can over take a settlement if you did not stopped them in time. if this is not impact what is?

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

They should update the challenge log with more interesting rewards other than a tiny amount of gil and some exp, always wanted more of a weekly WT for open world stuff.

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its one of this things they forget what in the game.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They would do well to look at how the likes of WoW, ESO and Lost Ark make use of their open worlds. Encouraging players to explore and uncover hidden secrets isn't a bad thing and helps make FFXIV's zones have more relevance beyond occasional MSQ quests and gathering nodes.

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Then again, it's hard to uncover secrets when they don't exist. All areas I've find in open world that didn't have a quest or FATE in them were empty. There is no discovery unless there's something telling you to go and do a thing, and then it's just crossing that thing off a list.

There aren't even any secret FATEs anywhere, since they all just randomly appear on the map.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Then again, it's hard to uncover secrets when they don't exist. All areas I've find in open world that didn't have a quest or FATE in them were empty. There is no discovery unless there's something telling you to go and do a thing, and then it's just crossing that thing off a list.

There aren't even any secret FATEs anywhere, since they all just randomly appear on the map.

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Why should they do that when someone will post about it on a third-party website like Discord or Reddit ruining the secret? Obviously its better to have nothing than something because of the dreaded third-party sites.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Then again, it's hard to uncover secrets when they don't exist. All areas I've find in open world that didn't have a quest or FATE in them were empty. There is no discovery unless there's something telling you to go and do a thing, and then it's just crossing that thing off a list.

There aren't even any secret FATEs anywhere, since they all just randomly appear on the map.

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Can't speak for other games but WoW really wasn't any better when it came to discovery because spawn locations for treasure chests and the like were data mined and botted (why Blizzard ended up removing a lot of them over the years - there was no point when the bots would get them). There were the treasures phased at the character level that could only be collected once - and most players just looked them up on WoWhead to save time. Even if a player collected them via random encounter, the need to explore stopped once they were collected.

And actually there are "secret" FATEs in this game. They have spawn conditions that must be met. They will never appear on the world map when active, only the mini-map when you are in close range. It's not a huge number (only 2-3 per expansion) but they do exist.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Why should they do that when someone will post about it on a third-party website like Discord or Reddit ruining the secret? Obviously its better to have nothing than something because of the dreaded third-party sites.

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just don't look it up then??

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

its a joke? fates in gw2 don't impact things? monsters can over take a settlement if you did not stopped them in time. if this is not impact what is?

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Yeah, and the next time players regain the settlement they come back and attack it again. If there are no players in the area, guess what. Monsters take over the settlement, until players regain the settlement. And then monsters attack it again. Over and over and over. Nothing really changes.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yeah, and the next time players regain the settlement they come back and attack it again. If there are no players in the area, guess what. Monsters take over the settlement, until players regain the settlement. And then monsters attack it again. Over and over and over. Nothing really changes.

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Sounds WAYYYYYYYYYYY better than what we have now to be honest. almost akin to XI's old school Beseiged / Campaign. Or even FFXIV 1.2s Hamlet Defence.

At least it gives players a reason to be there and feel like theyve achieved something when they successfully defended the settlement..

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

yet it is considered by players as one of the primary reasons they enjoy the game, especially the harder events that requires many players.

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If it has depth and impact on the world it's not suprising players enjoy it so much.. and yet here everyone despises fates because theyre shallow and lifeless.

I may have to pick that game up and give it a shot..

I am still doing my ARR relic and its freaking Endwalker xD give me a break.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

all the "open world" maps. all the older dungeons .older raids. why not udgust them for the cornet end game lvl and make the tome grind a more fun thing where you don't just run the same 3 dungeons for half a year.:confused:
what you think of this?

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All the older content roulette only triggers when people queue for it eg new players, people looking for specific glamour etc. Open world maps is reused with allied,centurio etc seal farming, gathering for crafting. In the context of endwalker content, a 4 month cycle meant a lot for people tat only afford a few hours a week on ff14 yet still subscribed.