I did not enjoy Shadowbringer (SPOILERS)

Shadowbringer is a poorly thought-out and messily-written hodgepodge of contrived plot devices and and plot elements.

It strings the player along in ways Stormblood never did. It poorly explains developments in obtuse ways using overly-verbose dialogue, long-winded and convoluted monologues that Stormblood never did either. There is more busy-work and errands for the WoL to undertake than in any portion of Stormblood or Heavensward, and it shows in every facet of the expansion. The only high point of this add-on is the very climax, the culmination and the points leading up to the confrontation with "Hades." Even then I would scarcely exclaim it was worth it.

In revealing the Crystal Exarch to be Graha Tia, Square-Enix expects the player to retrieve a character from memory that appeared maybe once or twice about 70-80 hours previously in the MSQ--and that's only assuming that was done relatively recently--dropped monthly subscription renewals would most certainly be needed to be taken into account here. Many returning players would be absolutely up **** creek without a paddle here.

And while I cannot speak for anyone apart from myself when making such an assertion I can easily say that such was the case for me. When his hood got blown off during that cut scene this was my reaction:

-_- "Uh....Ok?"

No, I wish I was making that up. I am returning to this game after a seven-year hiatus. I was just about done with Heavensward when I came back and was about two months in when I beat Shadowbringer. So Yoshi P. has a lot to mull over here, because I have discussed this on other message boards, and I know I am not the only one whose head this whole "big reveal" completely flew over.

My other big criticism concerns Urianger and Square-Enix's insistence on designating him as the go-to "exposition character." It is bad enough that merely listening to him speak impels me to break out a thesaurus, but the issues compound on one another when his explanations don't make a lick of sense concerning the Scion's difficulties in returning to their own bodies across worlds.

I didn't understand one iota of why Auricite wouldn't work in transporting their souls and their "psyches" back to the source. I saw this word "silcarum" or some such, and it came completely out of left field. Now, normally, this plot complication wouldn't necessitate such a grievance out of me. I would just chalk it up to a bunch of jargon and technical speak and try to paraphrase it in my mind thusly:

"Auricite won't work because it's not a stable enough of a crystal or something, whatever, time to move on."

But when you dedicate an entire arc to this nonsense and numerous cutscenes trying to explain to this to the player, as well as send the WoL on a bunch of fetch quests to solve said conundrum, that is when I begin to take umbrage. And this is exacerbated by the fact that Shadowbringer on the whole made very little sense to me.

You weren't the only person who did it after not having done the CT storyline in years and yet many remembered who the Exarch was. Course there are many who like you who didn't. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the 2nd most highly praised by fans and critics alike expansion. I'm a little baffled that you got confused about the auracite part in that it's too porous of a thing that it would be like a water balloon with a very small hole. Where over a small amount of time one's aether would just leak out which isn't what you'd want when traveling the rift. Instead of bringing up the whole oh crap we labeled Umbral and Astral wrong bit.

Bait? Yeah, probably bait.

Actually, it's an opinion piece/review of Shadowbringer. Not bait.

To be entirely fair, Yoshida did tell players prior to the Shadowbringers release to revisit the story of Crystal Tower, since it would play an important part in the narrative. You likely missed this, since you mentioned a seven-year hiatus, but it was expressly stated multiple times throughout ShB’s fanfests. That said, for new players, Crystal Tower is now required to finish the 2.x storyline and go into Heavensward—so it seems the issue with that and G’raha have been relatively rectified.



Everyone can like what they like, but I personally loved Shadowbringers as an expansion. Easily the best in terms of writing. It drew me in emotionally, and I tend to consider stories that can do that successes in my book. Even if there are issues like plot holes and continuity errors. I tend to not overly analyze writings when I’m reading because I read for enjoyment—so that might be why I’m a bit more willing to overlook things that others critique. Again, to each their own.

I agree with the above poster. If you don’t like ShB, you probably won’t like Endwalker either.

This is more an observation than a complaint or criticism, but I feel like your stated complaints are actually fairly minor things. Borderline nitpicks, in some places. That's totally fair, sometimes that genuinely is the stuff that bothers people--I stopped watching some TV shows not because of any one great issue but because of a dozen smaller ones. That's fine, and it's not like Shadowbringers is a government-mandated Favorite Thing. There's plenty of people who dislike Shadowbringers, they just didn't usually stick around or talk too prominently after Shadowbringers because ShB was, for better or worse, very loud in its themes and discussion. ShB at the time wasn't something you could just dislike and move on from if you wanted to stay with the game, Shadowbringers Talk was inescapable.

Although it does make me wonder, do you dislike it not because of those minor issues, or because of an indistinct something greater which was harder to say but put you in a mood to dislike smaller stuff that you can actually explain. Were there parts of Shadowbringers you liked, even minor things?

I'm going to disagree with the two above me and say that you won't by default hate Endwalker. Sure, you might, everyone has their own tastes and I only have a very narrow perspective of yours. But the strength of Endwalker is that, as a sendoff to the game as it's stood thus far, it's kind of a mix of everything that's come before it, and so if you've liked something that's come before it then it's going to be catered to in some way. I wasn't the world's biggest fan of Shadowbringers, especially not the parts a lot of other people adore, but I loved Endwalker because it opened with a lot of notes that I liked from Stormblood, Heavensward, and even ARR.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be entirely fair, Yoshida did tell players prior to the Shadowbringers release to revisit the story of Crystal Tower, since it would play an important part in the narrative. You likely missed this, since you mentioned a seven-year hiatus, but it was expressly stated multiple times throughout ShB’s fanfests. That said, for new players, Crystal Tower is now required to finish the 2.x storyline and go into Heavensward—so it seems the issue with that and G’raha have been relatively rectified.



Everyone can like what they like, but I personally loved Shadowbringers as an expansion. Easily the best in terms of writing. It drew me in emotionally, and I tend to consider stories that can do that successes in my book. Even if there are issues like plot holes and continuity errors. I tend to not overly analyze writings when I’m reading because I read for enjoyment—so that might be why I’m a bit more willing to overlook things that others critique. Again, to each their own.

I agree with the above poster. If you don’t like ShB, you probably won’t like Endwalker either.

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I loved shb, but everything post Elpis aside from Ultima Thule left a bit of a sour taste for me. I had gone into Elpis hoping to be able to split the timeline like G'raha did. Closed time loops is not a form of time travel I have ever been truly fond of.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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If the Op thinks Shadowbringers was a messily written hodgepodge of contrived plot devices and elements then I doubt he's going to feel differently about Endwalker's story. Especially since we have people still complaining about an 11th hour new end boss. Which isn't as bad as what they did in IX where you killed the final boss only to have some thing come out and basically say "oh thanks for getting rid of every "seal" of my prison. Also don't um wonder why or how there was no hint I even existed." Along with whatever they feel was the poorly explained development, overly-verbose dialogue, monologues and busy work in a story that's to be a book end of a 10yr story arc. Which I'm sure you can agree from certain perspectives or views Endwalker has a lot of.

Uhm... nnnnno, I actually feel like Endwalker was pretty well explained and paced. Could it be better, sure, and there were places I personally wish they'd have focused more (I literally just wanted a full-on Thavnair expansion), but I never felt like it was spending too much or too little time in an area that it ultimately needed. Again, I don't have enough of a feel for the OP's tastes to say they won't like Endwalker, because Endwalker does so much that it's hard to not like some of it.

Also, I am going to defend Necron, because while a fairly abrupt presence in the pure event-by-event story, he's a completely reasonable end state in terms of the themes and conceptual throughline of the game. FFIX is ultimately a game about how people deal with death; what better final boss than the embodiment of death itself? Admittedly, Necron was squaring a difficult circle in terms of embodying death itself without also embodying some other part of death; it makes a lot of sense to learn that the originally planned final boss was Hades, who would've very clearly represented death to everyone... but also would've given the wrong tonal implications, basically declaring the thematic enemy to be 'someday you will die and go to hell' rather than the more general 'someday you will die'.

Similar thing going with Endwalker's main enemy, actually. Speaking in terms of pure plot, sure, they're a relatively late arrival (although nowhere near as late as Necron was). But they're speaking to the closest thing FFXIV's got to an emotional throughline, so when you're thinking about it less as a pure 'events happen' story and more as a story that expresses emotions, ideals and concepts as well as events then they feel right at home, even if they turn up later.

...granted, I suppose from their largely detail-focused complaints I don't expect the OP to be someone with feelings that deep on Necron, so that character might be a miss for them, too. But again, a lot of stuff to like in Endwalker, I can't say they won't find something they'll enjoy. Maybe they were a big fan of the sort of stories that the Garlean Empire brought, which would naturally put them a bit off in Shadowbringers where they're practically the D-plot, but those guys come back in an interesting way in Endwalker.

Can't really comment on Endwalker yet as haven't finished it yet, but I thought Shadowbringers was great and the battle against Hades (and the cutscenes either side) blew me away - "This is our future. Our Story" still gives me goosebumps!

I called it was G'raha way before he revealed himself and I skip most cinematics!

How do I do it :x

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

I called it was G'raha way before he revealed himself and I skip most cinematics!

How do I do it :x

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Some people were thrown off by the crystallization and lack of ears, but a lot nailed it because of the Crystal Tower association and Yoshi telling us to do the raid + there is absolutely no mistaking that distinctive catboy babyface.

And as far as things being explained, I thought they went into some length with the auracite and how it was only a temporary hold with the whole Moenbryda/Nabriales scene. Though the OP did say they took a long break...

Wait, wait, wait...am I getting this correctly? This entire expansion revolved around an OPTIONAL raid? Was this Crystal Tower raid a part of the MSQ at any point? I honestly can't remember. Because if this was an optional raid that I somehow missed between beating Heavensward and my seven-year hiatus then I am afraid this only bolsters my original criticism of Shadowbringer. You cannot make an expansion that inexorably follows the MSQ to its conclusion that is heavily centered on optional content that the player can miss. This is quite possibly the first cardinal sin of video-game writing, and Yoshi P shamelessly broke it with a grin on his face.

It would be akin to Peter Jackson incorporating heavy elements from the Silmarillion in The Return of the King™ out of nowhere when the gist of the adaptation thus far was basically "Sauron is big bad, ring of power needs to be destroyed." It's just....no, please God, NO. Stop over-complicating things! If this is not the case then disregard. I really need to check this raid again to see if I did complete it and didn't just memory hole it somehow. Good heavens there is much more I missed in this seven years then I had originally imagined. It's making my head hurt.

As for the things I liked and loved about Shadowbringer...that's easy. Hades (can't even remember the guy's Garlean name, their names too make my head hurt). His presence during the second part was a breath of fresh air. Not completely villainous like Blonde Sephiroth, and he had so much empathy and pathos going for him. Freaking felt sorry for the guy by the time my character rent his torso asunder with that axe born of light. Was almost rooting for him to win and not the Scions at certain points. That is how much I enjoyed his character. The track that played during his fight was something to behold as well. Almost hit me the same way One-winged Angel did. Damn close.

But once again, my enjoyment of this very multidimensional, multifaceted villain is a bit marred by his convoluted origins that make very little sense to me. That whole plot line involving the Empire rolling out clones for him to continually possess had my face contort in ways I'd rather not go into detail here. I'm not sure I understood the point. Ascians are basically an immortal, almost demigod-like proto race that can possess bodies a la The Thing™, travel between worlds and so on and so forth. I get that. What I don't get is why a powerful exemplar of such a race would require a legion of clones to be able to live so long. At least, that's what I gathered with his interactions with his grandson. Unless I misconstrued that entire scene, which is entirely possible. Wouldn't it have been far simpler to just forego the dumb clones and state in a cutscene:

"Mwahaha, yes indeed! The founder of the empire was an Ascian all along! And I never died, I just changed form into an old man to make you think I withered away! But now I am young again because that's what we Ascians do! We're cool like that!"

The CT raids weren't always mandatory, but they have been made so now. I quit playing regularly after HW and would only come back for patch content and EPs so I was also in the boat of not having done CT since whenever it was released (2013?) And I wasn't aware that Yoshi had suggested that everyone refresh themselves on that content before going into ShB. As a result I had no idea who the Exarch was on my first time through and even when his face was revealed I was still lost because, yknow, it had been quite a few years for me. I loved ShB but I was bummed at the time that that moment didn't have as much impact as it could have had.

But with that being said, it is now part of the MSQ and is no longer optional content. So that shouldn't be an issue for newer players.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

send the WoL on a bunch of fetch quests

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Oh no fetch quests, that's so terrible

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

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He used clones because body hopping and altering them takes up energy. Emet doesn't enjoy using any of his aether/power if he doesn't need to. It's why he chose to live as the person he originally possssed until that body dies. Unlike Lahabreha and Elidibus who frequently body hop. To the point Lahabreha did it so much that he basically was burning the candle at both ends. They're only immortal due to the fact you can't easily kill such an aetherical dense person as an Ascian. Along with anyone who has the echo. Or at least that's what they hint at with Zenos since he didn't die and has a fake one. Though it could also be due to the fact Emet is his biological great grandfather.

As Pawpaw stated the Crystal Tower raids was optional and now is a road block soon after completing 2.0. When they made it mandatory due to how the MSQ unfolds if you hadn't done it by the start of 5.3 and you were at that point in the MSQ you'd have to go and unlock it.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

What I don't get is why a powerful exemplar of such a race would require a legion of clones to be able to live so long. At least, that's what I gathered with his interactions with his grandson. Unless I misconstrued that entire scene, which is entirely possible. Wouldn't it have been far simpler to just forego the dumb clones and state in a cutscene:

"Mwahaha, yes indeed! The founder of the empire was an Ascian all along! And I never died, I just changed form into an old man to make you think I withered away! But now I am young again because that's what we Ascians do! We're cool like that!"

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Though it has been a good minute since I went through the Shadowbringers MSQ, I am fairly certain that Emet-Selch mentioned at one point that he prefers possessing his own body versus the body of another. Hence the Garlean Empire manufacturing all the Younger Solus bodies.

(I also remember it being mentioned at a point that repeated possession has its own detrimental effects on Ascians. Lababrea was mentioned, and it was implied that the repeated possessions also made him a bit unstable. So they aren’t exactly infallible beings.)

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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I wasn't saying that you didn't think that it wasn't well paced, but that if the OP felt that way about ShB that had imo better pacing that they then would think the same of Endwalker's story. Heck if we want to sort of over generalize EW with just the "busy work/chore" it has a lot of places and maybe more than Shadowbringers did. The pathway split at the start can feel like a huge chore if you choose a certain path instead of the other. So much so that it can make most of said path and the other one as a drag on point since we get the 1st dungeon carrot dangled in-front of us so early. You could see the whole lv33/34 as busy work excluding the dungeon and trial. Yes even a certain quest that either you hated the game play of it due to disliking that style or hating that there didn't feel as though there was any pay off. Or you could just hate the game play and what happens afterwards. Also yes I just called two whole zones busy work/a chore. I didn't see them as such, but I do know of people who saw one or the other as such. Lv 85 post dungeon could be seen as a drag as at one point even though I was enjoying it I just wanted them to twist the knife in my heart again already and get us to the npcs we were trying to get to. Then there's the lv 88 story bits where it really is just busy work.

The thing with Necron though is I don't think many people noticed the themes of the game or at least maybe not during their first play through. I was fine with who Endwalker's end boss was as I went wait is that why Omega and a few others have expressed confusion on as to why we were able to out perform what they thought was possible of us.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

You cannot make an expansion that inexorably follows the MSQ to its conclusion that is heavily centered on optional content that the player can miss.

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As it was presented in 5.0, it was deliberately written so the story makes sense with or without completing the Crystal Tower storyline – making the assumption that if you have not completed it then in the other timeline that the Exarch comes from, those events happened and he experienced them even if you personally have not. Because of this, he knows you regardless of whether you know him.

The story carries more emotional weight if you know who he is, but the plot plays out the same either way.

"It was deliberately written so the story makes sense with or without completing the Crystal Tower story line"

I deny this assertion with every fiber of my being. Flat out false. Full stop. I just checked my cut scene history, and apparently I had already beaten the Crystal Tower raids. However, let me be brutally candid here--Shadowbringer on the whole dd not make a lick of sense to me anyway, especially concerning the parts involving the Exarch. And if a player hadn't even touched the Crystal Tower sections beforehand the story would have had ZERO emotional weight. Not less--ZERO. Nada, nothing!

As an aside, turns out I did memory hole the entire Crystal Tower saga. That must been one of the sections I completed before the seven-year hiatus. And that would certainly go a long a way to explaining why the big hood reveal amounted to jack and squat with me. That's fair. I will own up to that. But I will stand by my other point concerning optional content. I would even go a step further and state it would be a lot better for everyone involved if Square-Enix would roll out a patch for Shadowbringer for any adventurer just starting the expansion.

Right before the first quest starts there would be a disclaimer that would appear on the screen in big bold letters that would state:
DUDE, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE THE CRYSTAL TOWER QUEST LINE, THEN JUST DO IT. FOLLOW THAT MIQOTE ALREADY. AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY FINISHED THE RAIDS, THEN REWATCH ALL OF THE CUT SCENES. YES, ALL OF THEM YOU BIG OAF. THANK ME LATER DUDES AND DUDETTES.
-Yoshi P.

I don't know why I made him talk like he's from Cali but whatever. Anywho, my point is I just got done rewatching all of the Crystal Tower cutscenes, and mostly everything involving the Exarch is NOW starting to line up. Finally. Should have done that ages ago.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

He used clones because body hopping and altering them takes up energy. Emet doesn't enjoy using any of his aether/power if he doesn't need to. It's why he chose to live as the person he originally possssed until that body dies. Unlike Lahabreha and Elidibus who frequently body hop. To the point Lahabreha did it so much that he basically was burning the candle at both ends. They're only immortal due to the fact you can't easily kill such an aetherical dense person as an Ascian. Along with anyone who has the echo. Or at least that's what they hint at with Zenos since he didn't die and has a fake one. Though it could also be due to the fact Emet is his biological great grandfather.

As Pawpaw stated the Crystal Tower raids was optional and now is a road block soon after completing 2.0. When they made it mandatory due to how the MSQ unfolds if you hadn't done it by the start of 5.3 and you were at that point in the MSQ you'd have to go and unlock it.

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Okay, this brings up another can of worms for me. I don't recall any of these details and minutiae involving body possession being debilitating to Ascians anywhere in any major cutscene. And if these points were in a major cutscene, I sure hope it wasn't some 60 hours back in one of the first quest lines in ARR. Because again, I don't have that kind of memory. You're killing me here, Square-Enix. Do I have to look this up in a book somewhere in Limsa or something? In Uldah? Is there a library in Eorzea you guys are getting all of this information from?

This brings me to another question I have. You speak of the body he originally possessed. Does this mean the founder of the Empire was NOT an Ascian but just possessed by an Ascian? Again, questions like these are just one of many I have involving the entirety of Shadowbringer. And it all eventually adds up into an amalgam of utter confusion and incomprehensibility that makes me want to tear my hair out. I have a litany of questions just like this that would destroy the character limit of a single post on here. And that's just for the first part of Shadowbringer.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

Okay, this brings up another can of worms for me. I don't recall any of these details and minutiae involving body possession being debilitating to Ascians anywhere in any major cutscene. And if these points were in a major cutscene, I sure hope it wasn't some 60 hours back in one of the first quest lines in ARR. Because again, I don't have that kind of memory. You're killing me here, Square-Enix. Do I have to look this up in a book somewhere in Limsa or something? In Uldah? Is there a library in Eorzea you guys are getting all of this information from?

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While I cannot give a definitive quest name, these revelations were not prior to ShB. During the ShB MSQ, you can actually talk to Emet-Selch each time he shows up with the Scions and he gives you tons of lore about himself, Ascians/the Unsundered, and Zodiark. I remember this information because 1. I immensely enjoyed ShB and absorbed a lot of information as a result, and 2. I’ve also done the full story multiple times.

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Shadowbringer

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I will also nitpick a bit here: the expansion is titled Shadowbringers. With an s. Not Shadowbringer.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

Right before the first quest starts there would be a disclaimer that would appear on the screen in big bold letters that would state:
DUDE, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE THE CRYSTAL TOWER QUEST LINE, THEN JUST DO IT. FOLLOW THAT MIQOTE ALREADY. AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY FINISHED THE RAIDS, THEN REWATCH ALL OF THE CUT SCENES. YES, ALL OF THEM YOU BIG OAF. THANK ME LATER DUDES AND DUDETTES.
-Yoshi P.

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The Crystal Tower itself being a big centerpiece of the setting didn't tip you off that this was probably a relevant piece of story?

And for the record, the actual timeline of the required-ness-itude of the Crystal Tower to Shadowbringers:

From 5.0 through 5.2, the Crystal Tower was recommended reading by the developers, but not enforced in the story. There was ample amount of optional dialog if you did the Crystal Tower, but the core plot didn't ask you to and wasn't written as if you need to know what happened (or even saying that it happened at all; if you hadn't done the Crystal Tower then it acted like you just hadn't done that yet).

Come 5.3, they actually make the Crystal Tower required for progressing in the story, as 5.3 onward touches on actual parts of the Crystal Tower story rather than just the existence of the Tower. This is actually done, as I understand it, by multiple requirement gates: a new character is asked to do the raids during 2.x as the raids are current at that time, an existing character is I believe barred from continuing from both 5.0 and 5.3 until they've done it (I know it's at least one of these, probably both).

You're right that a blind spot in this is that they can't account for someone who has done the raids, but has forgotten. But that's just an ongoing problem in basically every kind of storytelling; most of them don't remind you of important details just to make sure you're on the same page when they do the reveals, they just expect you to retain memory, because... well, if you were that flagrant about it then you just blow the reveal for the people who actually are paying attention enough to get it.

And to answer the 'Garlean emperor was an Ascian' question, this is more specifically explained in Endwalker (but isn't necessarily important to Endwalker, it's just clarified there), so I'll section off the answer into two parts. For Shadowbringers: the Emperor was an Ascian at all points where this question would be a useful question to ask, he possessed a Garlean who hadn't done much of note and molded the nation into the Empire we know them as now. Solus Galvus was an Ascian at all points where Solus Galvus was an important figure.

The Endwalker-given specifics:

Emet-Selch specifically possessed Solus at some point during his twenties or thirties, who was a generally nothing-special soldier. Under Solus' name he climbed the ranks of the nation's politics, introduced magitek, and molded the nation from a republic into a totalitarian empire.

Lahabreha possessed Thancred's body back in 2.0. The process wasn't complete and by destroying the dark crystal that he used to do it we managed to kick him out. Elidibus has Zenos's body dug up and takes possession of it for the rest of 4.0. Well until Zenos in the body of a regular Garlean foot solider makes it back to Garlemald and the throne room. If you want to travel to other shards or to the source you have to well die. Or if you've technically already done that you need to shed any body you were in in order to do so. It's why the WoL/Wod being in the 1st whole sale is unique. Emet even tells you he did such when he went to the first and yes he took over the body of Solus. No we don't know what happens to the soul of the person if it happens while they're still alive. Most instances that we know of seem to be possession after the person died. Even Ardbert and friends did the whole body ditch when they came to the source on false pretenses of doing Elidibus's deeds thinking it'd save the 1st. Even Unhikalhi you know the strange kid Urianger introduced us who lives in the Solar of the Rising Stones is just like how the Scions are while on the first a soul manifested without a body.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I cannot give a definitive quest name, these revelations were not prior to ShB. During the ShB MSQ, you can actually talk to Emet-Selch each time he shows up with the Scions and he gives you tons of lore about himself, Ascians/the Unsundered, and Zodiark. I remember this information because 1. I immensely enjoyed ShB and absorbed a lot of information as a result, and 2. I’ve also done the full story multiple times.



I will also nitpick a bit here: the expansion is titled Shadowbringers. With an s. Not Shadowbringer.

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https://imgur.com/tUIZN3t
Let me get this straight, Square-Enix. To comprehend one of, if not the most important aspects to FFXIV's narrative, (The Ascians) the player is expected to have the foresight and clairvoyance to speak to a villain optionally at his or her leisure at key moments of respite throughout the expansion of Shadowbringers to grasp most of the critical nuggets of information surrounding this mysterious and fascinating race of enigmatic body snatchers?

This is video-game writing of the worst ilk. This is not weaving the lore and backstory in a seamless way throughout the protagonist's natural progression in the MSQ. Like forcing the player to constantly pick up notes/journals/audio logs in a shooter or some other genre of game to get any sort of story or context. In short, my criticisms of Shadowbringers are now only piling up, not dwindling. Only silver lining I seem to have gleaned from making this thread is that undertaking new game+ for Shadowbringers is going to be extremely useful. Just a shame that it wouldn't be necessary if Square-Enix remotely understood how narrative coherence works.

I wouldn't consider any of the stuff Emet-Selch mentions as critical lore as virtually of it gets brought up later in mandatory dialogue.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wouldn't consider any of the stuff Emet-Selch mentions as critical lore as virtually of it gets brought up later in mandatory dialogue.

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Ugh, if that's true...

I will never understand Square-Enix's obsession with explaining lore-critical details hours after the headaches subside from said confusion and one no longer cares anymore about comprehending it all. There's a a proper time and pacing to uncovering mysteries, but the same can't be said for convoluted plot points that do nothing but lessen the impact of the great mystery's unraveling because no one understands what's happening at the given moment.

By "later" I mean within 5.0-5.3.

I'd consider all of it foreshadowing at best regardless; namely the bits about Ascian "names" just being titles of office and memory crystals being utilized in filling empty seats of the Convocation.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

https://imgur.com/tUIZN3t
Let me get this straight, Square-Enix. To comprehend one of, if not the most important aspects to FFXIV's narrative, (The Ascians) the player is expected to have the foresight and clairvoyance to speak to a villain optionally at his or her leisure at key moments of respite throughout the expansion of Shadowbringers to grasp most of the critical nuggets of information surrounding this mysterious and fascinating race of enigmatic body snatchers?

This is video-game writing of the worst ilk. This is not weaving the lore and backstory in a seamless way throughout the protagonist's natural progression in the MSQ. Like forcing the player to constantly pick up notes/journals/audio logs in a shooter or some other genre of game to get any sort of story or context. In short, my criticisms of Shadowbringers are now only piling up, not dwindling. Only silver lining I seem to have gleaned from making this thread is that undertaking new game+ for Shadowbringers is going to be extremely useful. Just a shame that it wouldn't be necessary if Square-Enix remotely understood how narrative coherence works.

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I stand by what I said before: if you are this nitpicky about ShB, you won’t enjoy EW’s story.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I stand by what I said before: if you are this nitpicky about ShB, you won’t enjoy EW’s story.

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I would heavily beg to differ on any of my criticisms being nitpicks.

And lo and behold, yet another cut scene featuring Urangier spouting exposition with Elidibus that completely flew over my head because he is the only character in the Scion gang who insists on using Shakespearean syntax in its entirety in his manner of speech. This is growing wearisome. Each cut scene is becoming more and more tedious than the one preceding it. While I'm still trying to decipher one that occurred 10 minutes ago, another one comes along that throws me into even more of a tizzy.

I do believe I have had an epiphany. My enjoyment of an expansion is in an inverse relationship with how many instances Urianger appears in--and speaks--in any given cut scene within said expansion. The more he is involved, the less I enjoy it. Imagine Kingdom Hearts if you will. Imagine all of the terminology, the meandering stories, subplots, the characters, their subsequent interactions, the sequels upon sequels upon sequels...got all that? Good. Now replace all of the dialogue with pure, unadulterated Shakespearean vernacular.

Can someone please explain to me what just happened when the "Not Warrior of Light" created an illusion of a star shower, thereby granting the gift of the echo to all of those WoL wannabes? I mean, Urianger technically "explained" it, but I didn't get any of it.

Some of them are a bit nitpicky. Especially the one on Ascian/Ancient lore. You can get lore from side quests within the game, which are also optional content—but everything necessary to understand the main scenario is always brought up in some way during the course of the main storyline. Even if the tidbits can also be found in the optional content. Your understanding of the Ancients and their society will not lack from not speaking to Emet during the 5.0 MSQ, but he does give “advance knowledge” on certain things you’ll hear about down the road.

It’s kind of the same for the CT series argument. Yoshida stressed repeatedly to revisit the story prior to ShB launch—and in 5.3, made completion of CT mandatory to even get to HW. So it’s not like he didn’t try to hint at the importance. The team also did various adjustments to make unlocking the raids and progressing through their storyline much faster compared to in the past (such as removing the FATE requirements).

I can agree that Urianger’s way of speaking gets irksome after a time. The only reason I can give for why they have him speak as such in English is because, in Japanese, he uses highly formal speech patterns. As English doesn’t have a formal speech equivalent, I’m guessing they thought his dialect was the best they could do.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

Old and/or Middle English

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Urianger isn’t using Old or Middle English. Old English would be near unintelligible to us, and Middle English not far behind.

A fun sample: The Lord’s Prayer in Middle English.

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Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name; thi kyngdoom come to; be thi wille don, in erthe as in heuene. Yyue to vs this dai oure breed ouer othir substaunce, and foryyue to vs oure dettis, as we foryyuen to oure dettouris; and lede vs not in to temptacioun, but delyuere vs fro yuel. Amen.

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Originally Posted by ProstheticSoul

I would heavily beg to differ on any of my criticisms being nitpicks.

And lo and behold, yet another cut scene featuring Urangier spouting exposition with Elidibus that completely flew over my head because he is the only character in the Scion gang who insists on using Middle English in its entirety in his manner of speech. This is growing wearisome. Each cut scene is becoming more and more tedious than the one preceding it. While I'm still trying to decipher one that occurred 10 minutes ago, another one comes along that throws me into even more of a tizzy.

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Urianger isn't using Middle English. The English he is using is Modern English. (Somewhat archaic English in some cases, but still Modern English). Middle English is much different.
It isn't all that difficult to understand Urianger, even if his language use tends to be a bit more convoluted than that of most other characters. You just need a decent knowledge of English.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Urianger isn't using Middle English. The English he is using is Modern English. (Somewhat archaic English in some cases, but still Modern English). Middle English is much different.
It isn't all that difficult to understand Urianger, even if his language use tends to be a bit more convoluted than that of most other characters. You just need a decent knowledge of English.

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I haven't ever had any problems understanding Urianger. Having experience with Shakespeare certainly helps with that as you'll find the same way of speaking in there. Such experience is something I have from english class.

OP, you are certainly entitled to your opinions. While I disagree with most of it, I certainly can't say something like "well you're wrong".

Some stories just don't vibe. I love robots, I love space, I typically enjoy anime. Can't seem to get into Gundam, despite it being well loved and extremely popular here in Japan. Couldn't really tell you why without sounding really nitpicky about it either- so I feel you. No worries.

That said, it's fine to just enjoy something without over thinking it, or find other ways to enjoy the game (social stuff etc), or to walk away entirely.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I haven't ever had any problems understanding Urianger. Having experience with Shakespeare certainly helps with that as you'll find the same way of speaking in there. Such experience is something I have from english class.

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Well, that's more power to you. Unfortunately, I don't understand Shakespearean. Ergo, it's incomprehensible to me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Some of them are a bit nitpicky. Especially the one on Ascian/Ancient lore.

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Well, that's certainly your opinion. And you're certainly entitled to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Urianger isn't using Middle English. The English he is using is Modern English. (Somewhat archaic English in some cases, but still Modern English). Middle English is much different.
It isn't all that difficult to understand Urianger, even if his language use tends to be a bit more convoluted than that of most other characters. You just need a decent knowledge of English.

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Ah, that is indeed my mistake. I edited my other post to reflect the accuracy. Regardless, my argument remains the same. Just replace middle English with Shakespearean.