the soul of Azem

i long theorized that the soul of the one who sat on Azem was fraction i theorized it was the Venat goal to fraction know only the one sit of her formal seat could complete the task over end conflict between her and Zodark. you only have two peice of the soul of Azem picture an expansion of retreive all them

We actually now have nine of the fourteen fragments of Azem's soul. In addition to the part that would've been on the Source to begin with, there have been seven Calamities/Rejoinings, plus merging with Ardbert.

Nay. Both group Zodiark (Elidibus), and group Hydaelyn (Venat) tried to recruit and coerce Azem to their respective causes, and she(he) basically said all of you have lost your lids, and bailed on all of them. That's what we learn before Endwalker.

We still have a lot to learn about Azem, but my own theory is Azem's opposition to ANY summoning, especially after witnessing all the sacrifices given up to Zodiark, and becoming sundered as a result of Hydaelyn's set something off in this particular soul. That something manifests in the current Azem and their uncanny ability to best primals with ease. We may even find out that Hydaelyn's blessing was just an insurance policy we never needed in the first place.

Venat's true opponent was always Zodiark and keeping his power in check. Azem's fight is with the Endsinger, and is an anti-primal.

My understanding is that people with the Echo have it because more of their souls have been reunited than normal. This is how the Echo is given to Fordola. They simply killed lots of people to retrieve their souls and meld them into Fordola. That's why you find a massive room full of bodies in Stormblood. So by merging with Adbert, all of the fragments were reunited and Hades recognises Azem but dismisses it as a trick of the light.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

We actually now have nine of the fourteen fragments of Azem's soul. In addition to the part that would've been on the Source to begin with, there have been seven Calamities/Rejoinings, plus merging with Ardbert.

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Something interesting about this is we don't know when exactly it was we received Hydaelyn's blessing. It is assumed that those who heard her call receive it by default, but I don't think so. Not after the events in Elpis. It is very possible the enchantment was made before the sundering, which would mean the 14th fragment would not have been lost to the void in the World of Darkness. At least not to aetherial corruption. There very well could be an intact shard of Azem fighting endlessly in the WoD.

My theory is that the RPR avatar of Zenos is the fragment of Azem from the 13th that fell to Darkness. The reason Zenos was capable of possessing our body, despite Venat's Blessing supposedly being able to prevent that type of thing, isn't because of Zenos' Artificial Echo but because the Avatar is a Fragment of Azem and thus can freely join with our body. The reason that it was expelled was a combination of Fandianel's Tomfoolery and Zenos' own desire to fight us that he willingly left the body, taking the avatar with him since I doubt it would've been powerful enough to overtake Zenos as it was. Now that Zenos is "gone" that Avatar will now possess Zenos' Body, being the only thing that was actually a capable threat to us and will use it to traverse to other shards to forcibly rejoin the remaining fragments of Azem before trying to overtake us itself.

Maybe I'm totally off base but that's my theory at least.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

My understanding is that people with the Echo have it because more of their souls have been reunited than normal.

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That is not how it works.

Everyone from the Source has the same amount of soul restoration – one fragment per Rejoining – with the exception of us and G'raha having picked up an extra fragment through unusual circumstances. (We merged with Ardbert; G'raha lived through an extra Rejoining in the other timeline and so acquired an extra fragment, which was transferred over to "our" G'raha along with the rest of the Exarch's soul.)

The Echo is awakened by triggering memories of Amaurot and its destruction, and even the single-fragment souls of the First are susceptible to those triggers.

The people sacrificed for the Resonance technology are apparently being used as aether batteries for the process.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

My theory is that the RPR avatar of Zenos is the fragment of Azem from the 13th that fell to Darkness. The reason Zenos was capable of possessing our body, despite Venat's Blessing supposedly being able to prevent that type of thing, isn't because of Zenos' Artificial Echo but because the Avatar is a Fragment of Azem and thus can freely join with our body. The reason that it was expelled was a combination of Fandianel's Tomfoolery and Zenos' own desire to fight us that he willingly left the body, taking the avatar with him since I doubt it would've been powerful enough to overtake Zenos as it was. Now that Zenos is "gone" that Avatar will now possess Zenos' Body, being the only thing that was actually a capable threat to us and will use it to traverse to other shards to forcibly rejoin the remaining fragments of Azem before trying to overtake us itself.

Maybe I'm totally off base but that's my theory at least.

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The blessing protects the bearer's soul from corruption, so I don't think it actually does anything to protect our body in absence of said soul.

I'm also more inclined to think the avatar is going to become an issue in the immediate future considering that we historically have a MSQ-related trial.

I have a conspiracy theory...
Maybe wait after 6.1, it's either spoiler or wrong :confused:

Azem didn't split it 14 with the sundering.
They split themself in 12 instead ; that's why at the start of the game you get a affinity with one ot the 12th ; that's your fragment of Azem

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Originally Posted by Calysto

I have a conspiracy theory...
Maybe wait after 6.1, it's either spoiler or wrong :confused:

Azem didn't split it 14 with the sundering.
They split themself in 12 instead ; that's why at the start of the game you get a affinity with one ot the 12th ; that's your fragment of Azem

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Something I feel has yet to be brought up is that the Auri of the Steppe seem to think that "Azim" created an Avatar to walk with their and "Nhamaa's children". That sounds an awful lot like summoning to me. Granted this could be a reference to Hydaelyn's creation as the supposed goddess of the world with Venat taking the roles of both Azim and Nhamaa within the legend. However, they firmly believe these were two distinct individuals with a disagreement and resolution to their conflict. One that ended with Nhamaa returning to the Moon and Azim to the Sun. Leaving behind a being to walk and watch over the children.

An old post of mine about the Auri creation myth. You can see where I was wrong even.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

I would hazard to guess that Azem became Hydaelyn's chosen almost immediately after the fracture. Something of a final wish, a wanting almost, by Venat in their final moments before the summoning was carried out, made manifest by Hydaelyn.

I also have to ask. Was Venat (the T is silent right?) the Nhamaa to Azem's Azim? Without going into bad fanfiction of course, what could the possible connection be between that legend to the "real events" of the final days?

Hien: Aye. I would know more of the Oronir─of their creation, and of Father Azim.

Udutai: As you wish. Come, let us sit.

Udutai: Before we begin, tell me: what do you know of the Au Ra, and how they came to be?

[“In the days before men, Azim and Nhaama waged a bitter war…”]

Udutai: Yes, yes. A common tale, and one believed by many tribes.

Udutai: But what it does not mention is this: Azim and Nhaama were lovers.

Udutai: Oh, they fought in the beginning, as did their creations. That much is true. But when they saw how the Xaela and the Raen rose above their hatreds and joined hands in harmony, their hearts stirred, and the love their children shared became theirs as well.

Udutai: Alas, he was of the sun and she of the moon. Apart they must remain, lest day and night cease to be, and with them all creation.

Udutai: With sadness in their hearts they returned to the heavens─he to the day, she to the night, destined to walk before and after, never to meet.

Udutai: As time passed, Azim’s yearning for his beloved grew deeper still. Was there truly naught that could be done, he wondered. At last, he knew.

Udutai: “If the Father cannot be with the Mother, then he shall go amongst her children. Now and ever after.“

Udutai: So it was that Azim took a fragment of his being and with it fashioned an avatar. Clad in scale of midnight, he descended, and sought out the Xaela.

Udutai: Yea, he was the first Oronir. We are of his flesh and his blood. We are the children of Azim, and it is our duty to watch over and keep the Xaela safe.

Hien: …I confess, I did not expect the tale of your people’s beginnings to be quite so romantic.

Hien: Yet I must ask: if it is your duty to defend the Xaela, how can you go to war with them in the Naadam? Is that not a contradiction?

Udutai: If a father disciplines his son, does that mean there is no love in his heart? Xaela are not wont to kneel. They must be made to─only then will they heed reason.

Hien: I see… Such is the way of the Steppe.

Hien: Thank you, elder, for sharing with us your wisdom.

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As for the Reapers pet voidsent being the fragment of Azem from the 13th? I still say its

Cyella, the other survivor of the shard who is still alive and well on the first working as a bar maid "happily" helping those overseeing the salvation of the 13th.

Theory I enjoy. The WoL is a paradox. With the ability to travel across dimensions and time travel. The current WoL was fragmented to gain better access to dynamis in order to defeat the end of days. Eventually.

Now that WoL is fragmented and slowly gathering pieces of themself. My guess is eventually when the WoL is completely whole, they will travel through time and become the Azem once again.

Kupo, the source is The Great King Moogle Mog. It will be revealed in an expansion to come maybe patch but it will eventually happen kupo!

Last ultra boss of FF14 is a incredibly tough King Moogle Mog Alliance Raid...lol kupo <3

Azem is just a moogle incognito hehe

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Originally Posted by Axious

Theory I enjoy. The WoL is a paradox. With the ability to travel across dimensions and time travel. The current WoL was fragmented to gain better access to dynamis in order to defeat the end of days. Eventually.

Now that WoL is fragmented and slowly gathering pieces of themself. My guess is eventually when the WoL is completely whole, they will travel through time and become the Azem once again.

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I think my "perfect" ending to XIV would be that our fully-rejoined self is forced to return to the star/Lifestream in order to save the world (Again), and that we're finally able to answer the question posed to us by Venat and later Zenos.

By necessity, we'd eventually be revived, but weird as it probably sounds, I'd honestly want to actually be dead temporarily just to see the impact it has on everyone. We've touched the lives of so many people at this point I could reasonably see them just willing us back into existence with memories intact, but perhaps without Azem's soul so we can truly exist just as ourselves.

I feel crazy; Am I the only one that has no idea what the OP is trying to say?

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Originally Posted by Calysto

I have a conspiracy theory...
Maybe wait after 6.1, it's either spoiler or wrong :confused:

Azem didn't split it 14 with the sundering.
They split themself in 12 instead ; that's why at the start of the game you get a affinity with one ot the 12th ; that's your fragment of Azem

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Oh, that's a nice theory.

He still could have been split into 14 though; The 12 + You + ??? I don't think that (if (s)he was sundered) that (s)he wasn't sundered into 14.

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Originally Posted by Calysto

I have a conspiracy theory...
Maybe wait after 6.1, it's either spoiler or wrong :confused:

Azem didn't split it 14 with the sundering.
They split themself in 12 instead ; that's why at the start of the game you get a affinity with one ot the 12th ; that's your fragment of Azem

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The Twelve aren't fragments of Azem, though, whatever they actually are. We're Azem, soul-wise, or more exactly nine-fourteenths of Azem. Azem's fragments can't be the Twelve if they're in us.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

perhaps without Azem's soul so we can truly exist just as ourselves.

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I don't think that's a thing that can exist. Azem's soul is our soul, not a thing added onto it. Remove it and you're left with a body but no soul to drive it.

It's already basically a plot point that it doesn't matter who your soul used to be, because you are still you regardless.

The simplest way to sort it out, probably, is that the story already differentiates between soul and memories. So it seems that the soul is what powers us and drives our personality but the memories are independent and not passed on unless they're so powerful they imprint on the soul and remain entangled in it, and even then they may only manifest as dreams or not at all until triggered.

So Azem's memories in their lifetime were what made them an individual, and their soul passed to us but we have our own memories. We're not the same person. We never were.

There's nothing in the story that actually binds us to Azem's identity anyway. It has no tangible impact on anything except Hades' sentimentality and our gaining command of the summoning spell from the crystal.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The Twelve aren't fragments of Azem, though, whatever they actually are. We're Azem, soul-wise, or more exactly nine-fourteenths of Azem. Azem's fragments can't be the Twelve if they're in us.

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Why not though? We haven't seen them. Typically, religions are founded on "gods" that haven't been seen "in a very long time." It's certainly possible that some of the fragments that we rejoined with were actually once worshiped as gods, but then eventually disappeared (were rejoined, or just left).

It's still a valid theory. I would agree with you if there were ever actual proof of "sightings" of the 12 after the rejoinings.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

It's certainly possible that some of the fragments that we rejoined with were actually once worshiped as gods, but then eventually disappeared (were rejoined, or just left).

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The Sundering sent a fragment of each soul into each shard. There was never a point where all the fragments of a single soul would have been together in one place.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There's nothing in the story that actually binds us to Azem's identity anyway. It has no tangible impact on anything except Hades' sentimentality and our gaining command of the summoning spell from the crystal.

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Gra'ha does have speculations that certain characteristics are also transferable. Hermes' many incarnations all exhibited an affinity with the celestial, instability, and psychosis. Souls also have hues/colors that are recognizable by certain aether sensitive individuals like Hythlodeaus, Hades, and to a much lesser extent, Y'shtola. In the case of Azem, it's not just the color of their soul and appearance (if playing a Hyur) that is recognizable by Emet, but also the behaviour. Sure, Emet is a sentimental guy underneath his cold exterior, and overlapping behavioral traits does very little to link incarnations of a soul; but this anecdotal evidence still carries a lot of weight due to the additional factors involved.

Even though there is no concrete proof that the soul possesses distinctive traits, it's also one of those things that there is also nothing to prove that it isn't true. I think it is better and more accurate to say that memories is what separates the incarnations of a soul from each other. However, this alone is enough to give each lifespan their own identity.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Gra'ha does have speculations that certain characteristics are also transferable.

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Sure, but even if that's the case then it doesn't make our character "dictated by our history as Azem and needing to break free of them to be truly ourself". If inherent traits have transferred from Azem, they're our traits now, and that aspect of Azem is inseparable from who our character is.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Sure, but even if that's the case then it doesn't make our character "dictated by our history as Azem and needing to break free of them to be truly ourself". If inherent traits have transferred from Azem, they're our traits now, and that aspect of Azem is inseparable from who our character is.

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Yes, with 'now' being the keyword in your statement. However, these distinctive traits would belong to the soul. Kind of like how a car will retain certain features from owner to owner. All the while the current owner can kind of ascertain some things about their predecessor based on anything that placed a lasting impact on the vehicle. What I am saying is the memories are really the only thing that belong to any incarnation of the soul of Azem (I really wish there was a name to give this version as I dislike having to refer to the seat). This then begs the questions, "What defines an individual?" Their drive? Their memories? Their soul?

I think we see things similarly though. Using the car metaphor, ultimately the past is not as relevant as the present. The current owner of the car is the one in the drivers seat, and it is as simple as that.

Don't forget that Hermes and Azem aren't the only examples of personality traits being attached to one's soul. Even if we don't really have proof the Dothral are some how able to know whom a Dothral was in the past even if for some reason they were born into a different clan/tribe one of them will end up having an Ah Ha moment and realize they're (enter name here) reborn.

I feel like this is turning into the Ship of Theseus Paradox. How much of Azem's soul can be changed before it's no longer Azem?

This should be in the Lore forum, tbh. Not Gen Disc.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

This should be in the Lore forum, tbh. Not Gen Disc.

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Dont expect the mods to do their job and move this thread or the other lore thread on the gen. Disc. To the lore section, but do expect them to move any thread in the lore section that is non lore..

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There's nothing in the story that actually binds us to Azem's identity anyway. It has no tangible impact on anything except Hades' sentimentality and our gaining command of the summoning spell from the crystal.

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I was operating under the assumption that there was some greater purpose that Azem was trying to fulfill that led them to avoid taking sides in the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict and the burden of that duty is going to end up falling upon us eventually.

It may have not influenced much so far, but that won't necessarily continue to hold true pushing into the future.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I feel like this is turning into the Ship of Theseus Paradox. How much of Azem's soul can be changed before it's no longer Azem?

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On further thought, I think calling it "Azem's soul" is a mistake in the first place. It's the soul that at various time has been Azem and us and a lot of other people. It's equally theirs and ours, regardless of who had it first.

Hmmm well spoiler alert so dont read past this section if u havent completed endwalker

U all know we not met the "current" azem right ...venat legit stated in elpis that "azem is currently playing around near a volcano"

Venat already gave her seat away to a new azem and was basically a "retired" azem and the current azem was out adventuring the volcano at the current time, she states this in her dialogue

So even know its just a "seat" we never truely met the current azem yet in elpis

So venat already pass her seat to her student already when we first met her

It's...kind of obvious we haven't met the Azem yet since they already established back in Shadowbringers that they and Venat were associates, but distinct people. I honestly kind of doubt we ever will given how vague they've been about them in every bit of mention that's been made so far, and even though Myths of the Realm seems very likely to be set in the past and will probably cover the Azeyma/Azim relation I still doubt they'll be making any in-person appearances.

The main thing that's weirding me out is how they seemed to know we were going to run into Themis/Elidibus to help them out and it makes me question just how much of a long game they might've had in mind, not just Venat.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The main thing that's weirding me out is how they seemed to know we were going to run into Themis/Elidibus to help them out and it makes me question just how much of a long game they might've had in mind, not just Venat.

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I have an idea about that based on what we currently know. The Azem of the past is literally us. We rejoin with all of our shards over the rest of the game, then when the game fully ends for good, we go back in time to become the Azem that was sundered. Story can't continue after that.

There are a few issues with this that make it not quite fit, but it's an idea.

the WoL ability hope for shard to shard it possible because she has all 9 part of her soul Azem is a wander who like to explore so game won't end if all part are found mind you she be more interest in see everything explore thing remember what Venat was doing she when to and for solve and help others plus the WoL it consider the last of anceint race it could come to point where all those memory suffer and she or he must wrestle with them drive them to point to have make peace with many part her or his soul or to point insanity each part of the soul of the WoL died different till it was rejoin to current for each time of rejoining of the star and such their death would be enough to drive the WoL insane an dungeon could be create inside of warrior light very soul where you have face those peice insteresting

prizm of the soul

I don't think that people can ever be fully rejoined, because the Ascians completely fucked up in the 13th and made the World of Darkness...

Also, we can't entirely freely hop from one shard to another... Though I'm not exactly sure how the reflections work, but if they're basically just other planets we theoretically could use the Ragnarok to get to them. And once we get to them and find something to teleport to there we could start hopping between them with magic.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I don't think that people can ever be fully rejoined, because the Ascians completely fucked up in the 13th and made the World of Darkness...

Also, we can't entirely freely hop from one shard to another... Though I'm not exactly sure how the reflections work, but if they're basically just other planets we theoretically could use the Ragnarok to get to them. And once we get to them and find something to teleport to there we could start hopping between them with magic.

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Voidsent still have souls, so I think they could still potentially be rejoined were one to cross over to the Source completely then be slain by their counterpart...though whether or not that would have ill effects on someone without aetherial protection like us is another question entirely.

As for the shards, they're described as having been scattered "beyond the rift" suggesting they all exist in their own dimensions, though it's been vaguely implied that the moons of the Source and the shards are linked somehow, which could potentially offer a simpler avenue of shard hopping then what it took to get us to the First.