Another raid complaint

Apparently p2s has been cleared by all Warriors now…Just another case of healers not being needed i guess and SE seems to deem this as fine. If you want engaging content just go to Ultimate. Meanwhile i’m pretty sure 2 of the 3 have been done with all tanks as well.

That's honestly pretty embarrassing that raid composition doesn't even need to be considered for a group to clear hardcore content. What a mess.

Sure, SE should take your suggestion and nerf warrior’s self helping potency.

I pretty sure a lot of groups stucked at p3s because of healing

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Sure, SE should take your suggestion and nerf warrior’s self helping potency.

I pretty sure a lot of groups stucked at p3s because of healing

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You really think its reasonable that eight warriors cleared a savage raid? Man, the lengths that some people will go to defend this game. Incredible.

WHY did SE have to take drk's self healing like that?! I want the fun of warrior with the aesthetics and weapons of drk. ;A;

This is the last straw, lets just all quit this game fellas :x

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Sure, SE should take your suggestion and nerf warrior’s self helping potency.

I pretty sure a lot of groups stucked at p3s because of healing

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Except that’s not even my suggestion. Where did i say they should nerf warrior’s healing?Please point to me in this thread where i said that.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You really think its reasonable that eight warriors cleared a savage raid? Man, the lengths that some people will go to defend this game. Incredible.

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It would only be an issue if it happened in first week of release, but now, when all these guys already got full BiS gear and plenty of experience on those fights? That's just a gimmick clear, and happens in other games too, like *the other big mmo*, where full 20 man groups of tanks only could clear high end content.

Also, non-conventional raid compositions have been around since forever for players who want to take new challenges, like that Scholar solo healing The Epic of Alexander.

Come on lets just go back to EverQuest 1

Where your character couldn't even go to the outhouse without a full party...

SOUNDS LIKE A JOLLY GOOD TIME!!

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Come lets just go back to EverQuest 1

Where yourf character couldn't even go to the outhouse without a full party...

SOUNDS LIKE A JOLLY GOOD TIME!!

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I can't, my skill sense is too low. I'll just get lost. :/

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Originally Posted by Leyllara

It would only be an issue if it happened in first week of release, but now, when all these guys already got full BiS gear and plenty of experience on those fights? That's just a gimmick clear, and happens in other games too, like *the other big mmo*, where full 20 man groups of tanks only could clear high end content.

Also, non-conventional raid compositions have been around since forever for players who want to take new challenges, like that Scholar solo healing The Epic of Alexander.

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Oh ok, it happens in WoW so it's completely fine now. Wrap it up, fellas, we're done here.


Edit: Even having a single healer is way more reasonable than having no healers and no dps.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You really think its reasonable that eight warriors cleared a savage raid? Man, the lengths that some people will go to defend this game. Incredible.

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If 8 Warriors are capable of coordinating and pulling it off, why not?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

If 8 Warriors are capable of coordinating and pulling it off, why not?

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Yes, abolish the old, wrinkly trinity, take its barely twitching corpse behind the shack and put it out of its misery while you're at it. Now that they're in a position to rework the game, just make it a solo game with multiplayer as optional side content (except you raiders can suffer each other company forever, but i guess you signed up for that). Yay, improvements!

Warriors are overpowered? Must be a day that ends in y.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

If 8 Warriors are capable of coordinating and pulling it off, why not?

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Because at the same time that happens healers are having 90% of their kit being heals which turn out as redundant/unnecesary due to an absurd lack of damage even in Savage. This is just another show of how out of touch the devs are with their vision of healers heal and sometime deal damage

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You really think its reasonable that eight warriors cleared a savage raid? Man, the lengths that some people will go to defend this game. Incredible.

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Anything that has to engage with healing in this game is currently botched to a such degree that I'd think it came out of New World. The game just barely supports the concept of healing at all.

Personally, I think they did a very good job tuning up the timeline combat for DPS and buff windows, it's fun and engaging but it's like it was done with literally zero care to healing. Healers barely require gameplay, Warrior comes across as busted when it's not it's just the... entire healing framework.

Something will have to give eventually, it will be interesting to see what it winds up being.

Devs: healers only heal!

Also devs: let’s have our deeply Choreographed fights do less damage to make it easier to heal

Again also devs: let’s also make only 4 trials loosely require you to heal

Also again devs: let’s make healing less important all together

It's got nothing to do with WAR's really. That's just one result of the main problem, that raids don't do enough damage. 8 WAR groups don't affect the normal player, they're hardly going to be denied a slot in PF because everyone's stacking tanks, most people still take the usual 2/2/4 comp. What does affect the normal player is the boredom of pressing 1 button all fight and throwing an occasional aoe heal at the raidwides that tickle you once in a while. Even if you nerf WAR healing to the ground, that won't change.

Like to further point out this is the type of crap you’d see at a unsynched party years later after launch! Not the newest raid tier

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's got nothing to do with WAR's really. That's just one result of the main problem, that raids don't do enough damage. 8 WAR groups don't affect the normal player, they're hardly going to be denied a slot in PF because everyone's stacking tanks, most people still take the usual 2/2/4 comp. What does affect the normal player is the boredom of pressing 1 button all fight and throwing an occasional aoe heal at the raidwides that tickle you once in a while. Even if you nerf WAR healing to the ground, that won't change.

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Agreed. One of two things need to change :

Either have Healer be demoted to “support” and have a pseudo beta magical ranged offensive kit

Or the other option would be to buff all raid wides and or add more in fights and increase potency of all raid and non raid damage by 200% and create a lot more instances for the average healer kit to be useful and mandatory examples being Doom, off key tank busters on other party members, enfiblements ect.

As much as I want them to nerf warrior as it makes a lot of dungeon runs very boring, I’d rather see a change in healer design first

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except that’s not even my suggestion. Where did i say they should nerf warrior’s healing?Please point to me in this thread where i said that.

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Are you not?
Maybe it was a dejavu, but I am pretty sure Death Knight had same issue in Woltk and how Blizzard adjust was nerf Death Knight self healing by half.

I mean UCoB was all tank cleared back in SB. It was not uncommon to see even this back in some HW ex trials. It's not a new thing.

For the first time in.. a very long while I'm gonna have to Agree with Caurcas here..

what's the matter with 8 Wars clearing it?

I can see the complaint for making healers more involved, but that shouldn't necessarily translate to: Nerf War.


Maybe buff/change healers?

It's honestly pretty tame to the no-healer stuff we used to do in FFXI.

Example: 18 man monk Divine Might fight (play with video muted, bad rock music plays over this)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrjuujP_nn0

In FFXI, dieing can set you back days worth of progress between a combination of EXP loss and item loss. These guys doing the whole fight with just monks was risky. Especially for this fight: where these bosses had two jobs (example: PLD and WHM) on top of dealing a good amount of damage and having huge HP pools.

This required much more coordination and risk acceptance than that 8 man WAR P2S in FF14.

Who needs healer anyways when WAR can solves everything?

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Who needs healer anyways when WAR can solves everything?

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Don't need dps either. WAR can truly solve everything.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

For the first time in.. a very long while I'm gonna have to Agree with Caurcas here..

what's the matter with 8 Wars clearing it?

I can see the complaint for making healers more involved, but that shouldn't necessarily translate to: Nerf War.


Maybe buff/change healers?

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For me it’s the fact that this is literally current content and it’s already been done with purely war’s. That at some level shows some form of imbalance. I could understand if this was a tier or two in the past but it’s literally current content. I mean War’s can already solo dungeons basically but that’s not really the problem here. It’s just moreso to do with the fact clearly, heal checks aren’t that severe. And with their philosophy of healers and 1 dps button, it’s a bit ridiculous. The problem here is not enough people are talking about healers. Because it’s such a less played role most people don’t care since it doesn’t affect them.

"The fact that a tank-only composition can still clear current content shows that healing requirements are too low."
"Sounds like a WAR problem to me!"

Not even surprised.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Agreed. One of two things need to change :

Either have Healer be demoted to “support” and have a pseudo beta magical ranged offensive kit

Or the other option would be to buff all raid wides and or add more in fights and increase potency of all raid and non raid damage by 200% and create a lot more instances for the average healer kit to be useful and mandatory examples being Doom, off key tank busters on other party members, enfiblements ect.

As much as I want them to nerf warrior as it makes a lot of dungeon runs very boring, I’d rather see a change in healer design first

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Your 'other option' still wouldn't fix anything to do with any content outside of group content. I wouldn't word it exactly like your first option, but yes, your first option would be preferable. incidentally i wouldn't see that as a demotion in any way, it would be a design change.

Why do you think those 8 warriors did this in the first place?

For fun. It wouldn't have been any fun for them if it wasn't possible. Not being able to do it with 8 warriors would be as boring as flying into an invisible wall.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

"The fact that a tank-only composition can still clear current content shows that healing requirements are too low."
"Sounds like a WAR problem to me!"

Not even surprised.

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Not just healing requirements though, dps requirements are pretty low, too.

Healers are not the only role being excluded from tank-only comps.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Not just healing requirements though, dps requirements are pretty low, too.

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Although this could all be to do with item level increases, which at least before the stat squish would always make a massive difference to the damage and healing requirements. The difference was between a tank needing a cooldown and a tank buster hardly needing any attention and between killing the boss during the enrage cast and killing it half-way through the fight.

Meanwhile week 1 we had to mitigate every single AOE because otherwise our DPS would have died.

This is simply possible because the tanks are BiS and the fight don't have unpredictable mechanic's.

Nothing is broken, it is just a consequence of Tank's dealing a good bit of damage.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

This is simply possible because the tanks are BiS and the fight don't have unpredictable mechanic's.

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I find that to be pretty broken.

Why don't fights have healer checks? Like actual checks only healers can handle? Isn't that a [gasp] design flaw?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I find that to be pretty broken.

Why don't fights have healer checks? Like actual checks only healers can handle? Isn't that a [gasp] design flaw?

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There are, in p3s.

Also, what would you do? Increase the DMG?
Tanks with their high defensive stats don't care about it.

More incoming tank dmg?
A good group of tanks can just rotate the aggro so it would still be possible.

Increase incoming tank dmg even further?
Healer don't have the kit for a lot of single target healing and no one wants to spam cure 2.

Reducing tanks defensive stats?
A skilled BiS group would be able to do fights without tanks.

Reduce tank DMG?
That will reduce the tank playerbase and everyone would complain about long quene times.

Whatever you do, it will have more bad consequences then the current situation.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

More incoming tank dmg?
A good group of tanks can just rotate the aggro so it would still be possible.

Increase incoming tank dmg even further?
Healer don't have the kit for a lot of single target healing and no one wants to spam cure 2.

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I dunno a combination of the two of these things if done right could be interesting.

We have 2 tanks and 2 healers in a raid. Why not make use of it?

Also, SE believes we should be dipping into GCD heals, can't do that when I have 2 charges of CI, ED, and and charge of Exaltation making me throw out Cure/Benefic 2 or preshielding a nice meaty hit every so often would be a nice change of pace.

...Or they could gut some healing tools healer has and give us actual support and make mechanics for that. Esuna is a thing... and yet the only thing we use it on is a removable doom because DoT damage is easily swept away by a regen.

Acting like most people out there could do the same.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You really think its reasonable that eight warriors cleared a savage raid?

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Savage really hasn't been the Same since Alexander: The Creator (Savage). The first two floors of Savage are not as hard as people think. They are slightly above extreme difficulty. DPS checks are very forgiving.

Also, the Savage fights are designed to be cleared on release with crafted gear. So can you imagine how easier things get once people have BiS? With BiS you take less damage, deal more damage and skip mechanics because the boss dies faster.

To point some things out about the P2s clear:

-Even with full BiS on everyone and no deaths/damage downs, they were killing it during the enrage cast.
-This is especially egregious when the 2 members I could ID their names on a certain website show they're 99% damage WARs. probably a good chance most of them are too. Meaning even with an incredibly stacked team of amazing WARs, they still barely beat the enrage. Meaning no random group would ever stand a chance at this.
-P2s has no role based mechanics, meaning an 8 WAR comp is also a lot more viable than say on p3s, where you will spend 90% of your runs wiping to the blackfire due to blackfire positions being completely random. This is also without factoring in later the RNG of the stack version of exponential gloryplume, where every WAR will have to split up since its completely random who they'll go on and must be mitigated hard to solo soak, also making the dps check even harder since multiple WARs will lose uptime.

With all due respect, who really cares about what people do when everyone has BiS? 99.99999999% of PUGs will never be able to accomplish the same thing, and these kinds of things will never happen in entry ilvl and the existence of needing dps in lower ilvl effectively mandates the existence of healers so you aren't forced to bring PLDs spamming clemency for huge damage losses. People calling for balancing changes over what the top 0.01% do for fun to test their absolute limits is such a confusing line of thinking for me.

Damage output is fine for what difficulty they want savage to be at. The actual problem is the lack of engaging healer offensive options to keep them engaged during times they don't need to heal.

This is the video for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbvZJ-EU0U

It ended up being really close. What we are seeing here is that P2S does not have any untelegraphed role mechanics, that they massively outgear the fight, that incoming damage is low and that the dps check over the fight is also not that high and I'm not trying to downplay the skill of those 8 players, what they did is pretty sick. This is an extreme edge case. You cant design around all of those.

I appreciate the person recording the video having spell effects on because by god it is fell cleave time.