Physical Damage Jobs - Themes

I thought i'd post as I have always thought this but never really bothered to think why, or communicate why I thought what I thought.

All of the physical ranged Damage jobs I have an issue with the theme for various reasons (I haven't listed Dancer, not interested in theme).

Machinist:

This is one that I had a lot of interest in before I started playing that I was extremely underwhelmed when I first unlocked it (back in SB) as it feels like a 'gun job' made by people who don't like guns. Thematically I guess it's fine as it is not solely focused on the 'gun' and more focused on the tech side of things, but I feel as though constantly whipping out different big 'guns' and other weapons just feels a tad unrealistic and I would welcome a more realistic skillset that makes heavier use of the existing gun, and maybe some tech rather than "flamethrowers whipped out of your kit, Saw laucher whipped out of your kit and big alternative guns whipped out of your kit".

Bard:

This is the job that made me write this post, and is the job that I think is the least thematic for both those that like the Bard archetype and also for those that like that archer archetype.

Bard perspective: I don't really consider myself relatively musical or musically minded to instantly I don't gravitate towards bard style classes for that reason, I feel like I would need to personally have an interest in the creation of music to truly enjoy this style of class, and after seeing a buddy playing Lost Ark it truly made me realise how well the theme of a "musician playing music that casts magic" could really gel well with RPG games and this is something that really could appeal to a good many people, you could even have a bard healer that sings sings of healing and support with their instruments. This would also allow flexibility for weapon glam due to the change in weapon type.

Archer perspective: While I don't really love the idea of a bard, like many games I love the idea of an archer or bowman, and this is something I feel should be separate from the bard as they fill a completely different archetype and fantasy. Personally i'd like a separate job that is linked to the archer (I think Square Enix said they wouldn't do this again, sad) that is labelled something like "Ranger" or something similar and has the focus of a ranged bowman that doesn't have all of the trappings of a musician tacked on to the bow class.

The Bard is the reason I stopped playing the job past archer, and the only reason i'm leveling it now is because I like bows (and don't have a lot else to level battle wise). I'd love to see something new for those that like bows, but hate Bards.

I find it so weird that this is such a thing. I'm both surprised and fascinated.

I still think Bard is one of the more ingenious job designs in XIV.

Machinist is definitely more of a gadget job than a gun job, it gets most of its inspiration from Edgar in FFVI. I think it's neat and unique though I've yet to level it 'cause the gameplay looks boring. One of these days.

The problem with converting a lot of FF jobs from previous games into an mmo is that a lot of them had a bunch of situational abilities and the fun came in knowing when to use what but here all of that gets shoved into your rotation, everything becomes just another button to hit on cd and they lose a lot of what originally made them special. Machinist seems like it should be a job with a tool for any situation but instead it's more like a bunch of random disjointed attacks in succession - at least it looks that way as I haven't played it. Summoner has the same problem, rather than choosing a summon for some unique power it brings it just calls them all out one after another in an endless loop.

Bard is a weird one for sure. It's more like 90% Archer 10% Bard, primarily shooting magical arrows while singing for a tiny group buff. It definitely doesn't feel like you might think a Bard would, even though the songs are very much core to the job it's just not what you spend a lot of your time doing and much of what the songs do is let you shoot more arrows lol. I think the whole Bard aspect is just there to give Archer a little something extra so it isn't just arrows and more arrows. It's designed pretty well overall imo, I like how they made the two sides fit together.

Also performance mode needs the ability to play chords. Squeenix pls.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I find it so weird that this is such a thing. I'm both surprised and fascinated.

I still think Bard is one of the more ingenious job designs in XIV.

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Eh, makes sense, while Bards might be quite well received in Final Fantasy games, most people, especially in the west, automatically associate archery with rangers. I know I do and I also know I am not alone in this. FFXIV currently doesn't have any job that fills in the Ranger niche, seeing as even as an Archer you are a military archer and not a ranger.

That's actually one of my biggest gripes with FFXIV, I personally don't really find any of the physical DPS jobs interesting class fantasy-wise aside from Dragoon. Rogues were awesome with the whole "honorable thieves" then they become... Ninjas. Great for FF and Naruto fans but terrible news for Rogue/Thief enjoyers.

Agree with all the OP’s points about Bard.

Unfortunately the developers and vast majority of the Bard community do not.

We will never see a full-on FF Bard job with a support oriented job with harp as their main weapon in all its glory.

We will never see a full-on Archer job that focuses solely on the laser beam archery stuff that dominates Bard’s gameplay.

I absolutely think they should be split so the identity of both jobs squished into this hybrid can be fully realised and not halved to make space for the fact you’re playing two different jobs at once. But, tragically, it won’t ever happen. I mean why would they when Bard is so massively popular

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Eh, makes sense, while Bards might be quite well received in Final Fantasy games, most people, especially in the west, automatically associate archery with rangers. I know I do and I also know I am not alone in this. FFXIV currently doesn't have any job that fills in the Ranger niche, seeing as even as an Archer you are a military archer and not a ranger.

That's actually one of my biggest gripes with FFXIV, I personally don't really find any of the physical DPS jobs interesting class fantasy-wise aside from Dragoon. Rogues were awesome with the whole "honorable thieves" then they become... Ninjas. Great for FF and Naruto fans but terrible news for Rogue/Thief enjoyers.

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Tbh I don't see much appeal for a vanilla ranger job, at least definitely within the design of FFXIV. There really isn't anything in XIV's combat system that capitalizes on things like swiftness, acrobatics, sniping. Ranger's whole job fantasy is really more befitting an exploration-style game--in what are mostly scripted fights, I just can't see the job having much pizazz.

I think the key to enjoying several of the FF jobs (especially physical DPS) is buying into the real-world philosophies they reflect and gamify. Monk incorporates chakra/nadi from yoga and kung fu styles. Samurai incorporates the Edo period art idealization of Snow Moon and Flower scenery. Ninja takes a bit of a pop-culture take on Hindu/Buddhist mudras (like you said, very Naruto). Machinist uses chess motifs, Sage uses humorism, etc. etc.

Some of these are definitely stretches thematically, and in the case of MNK/SAM/NIN/RPR they are *very* influenced by pop culture, but I definitely think there is a degree of buy-in necessary to enjoy the job. Something as small as a single job ability or term might turn someone off because it doesn't feel authentic to their job fantasy. For example, I don't want to play MNK because naming a form after those doofy looking Raptors kills the job fantasy for me.

But I would also argue that the "ranger" job fantasy is equally romanticized by pop culture--and imo is a lot harder to sell because there is no real philosophy behind what makes a ranger a ranger. The devs would likely have to take some other discipline (like SAM and watercolor painting) and style the ranger around it. And while I don't want to dismiss the possibility, I do struggle to think of any schools of thought that would sync up well with ranger. Again, I don't even really know what a "ranger" is supposed to even be, outside of maybe something a little loner/feral/survivalist which is an archetype BLU is already sprawling itself over.

MCH could feel more machinist-like if instead of summoning Queen and forgetting, you could hop into the mech and pilot it, kinda like how Reaper let's their Avatar take over but ranged combos.

BRD is weird but in most cases bards are generally associated with archery especially in the FF franchise. In other games, like in Genshin Impact, the character Venti has a harp and is a bard but uses a bow to fight. Idk perhaps it's just a way for them to fight while being able to stay ranged? I guess since harps have strings that it kinda goes?

I'm wanting the dev team to take BRD as a more supportive route as well as DNC but they would need to make their support more than just damage buffs.

Lost Ark's Bard has the musically aspect down to a t, so I'm hoping they take some inspiration from that.

Is just that the devs seem to be attracted to the idea of merging 2 different themes in some jobs, which of course, lead to divisive opinions (especially on the forums).

There are people who wants MCH to be more gadget focused... others do want it to be more gun focused. I'd rather have the former, to honor the actual "Machinist" name of the job, you know... handling machines. And it's somewhat like that now. The guns are only used in rotational filler abilities 1-2-3 or the Scattergun aoe. What the job misses atm has nothing to do with the theme, as its mechanics have little to no depth.

Same dilemma with BRD songs versus bows or WHM light aspected magic versus elemental magic.

Bard is really weird. It's the only job I can think of where the weapon it uses clashes with the Job's theme. It's more of an Archer than it is a Bard right now, too.
To be honest they should've made Bard a caster job that has a Lyre as a weapon, and then Archer to Ranger or what it actually is right now, a Magic Archer, when they added Jobs to the game.

Machinist still makes sense because it's their staple weapon throughout the franchise. Guns are also tools, which the job has various amounts of. It's the matter of how often people prefer using that particular tool or not.
Personally I think it's better thematically now than before, because using various tools is the job theme.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Bard is really weird. It's the only job I can think of where the weapon it uses clashes with the Job's theme. It's more of an Archer than it is a Bard right now, too.
To be honest they should've made Bard a caster job that has a Lyre as a weapon, and then Archer to Ranger or what it actually is right now, a Magic Archer, when they added Jobs to the game.

Machinist still makes sense because it's their staple weapon throughout the franchise. Guns are also tools, which the job has various amounts of. It's the matter of how often people prefer using that particular tool or not.
Personally I think it's better thematically now than before, because using various tools is the job theme.

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Yeah, I'm not attracted to XIV's "Bard" because it's a far cry from a fantasy Bard (or even Bards in other FF titles)... The musical aspect have little thematic and visual impact on the gameplay.

As much as I wanted a more classical bard approach, I don't think they would ever do that to XIV's Bard, because it would mean implode the job. There's no precedent of such a thing, not even in "heavy" reworks like SMN, they might change the job completely on a mechanical standpoint but the theme remains.

I think Bards one of the more unique jobs in the game half archer half buffer with music reminds me of Ebon song from arche age in a lot of ways. Should it be called a Bard probably not but oh well....
By far my favorite job in the game with a rotation that keeps things interesting.

I hate playing casters so I would never want caster bard.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Is just that the devs seem to be attracted to the idea of merging 2 different themes in some jobs, which of course, lead to divisive opinions (especially on the forums).

There are people who wants MCH to be more gadget focused... others do want it to be more gun focused. I'd rather have the former, to honor the actual "Machinist" name of the job, you know... handling machines. And it's somewhat like that now. The guns are only used in rotational filler abilities 1-2-3 or the Scattergun aoe. What the job misses atm has nothing to do with the theme, as its mechanics have little to no depth.

Same dilemma with BRD songs versus bows or WHM light aspected magic versus elemental magic.

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I love this approach to job design. It makes for more well-rounded, faceted, and unique jobs. Not to mention gives FF XIV more identity than most MMOs/RPGs which just rotely tick down DnD job archetypes.

If people want basic, tired low-magic job fantasies, WoW is still doing just fine. Lost Ark is now available, too. Maybe look into Elden Ring or Elder Scrolls. If archetypal berserker, ranger, and spellblade cliches are your jam, there is a multitude of games out there that can give you that experience. Final Fantasy is not and really has never been a low-fantasy franchise, and that definitely remains true for FFXIV.

I don't know what you guys are looking at, but FFXIV is not unique with job themes at all. Final Fantasy in general uses DnD job archetypes... Lol. Not that this is an issue. It's the standard.

In the case of FFXIV Bard, people are upset because it's not like the standard Final Fantasy Bard they loved and remembered. Understandable because Bards and Archers are two extremely different concepts. Honestly FFXIV's Bard does a terrible job merging both concepts because it's imbalanced. Like I said, it's more of an Archer than it is a Bard.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I don't know what you guys are looking at, but FFXIV is not unique with job themes at all. Final Fantasy in general uses DnD job archetypes... Lol. Not that this is an issue. It's the standard.

In the case of FFXIV Bard, people are upset because it's not like the standard Final Fantasy Bard they loved and remembered. Understandable because Bards and Archers are two extremely different concepts. Honestly FFXIV's Bard does a terrible job merging both concepts because it's imbalanced. Like I said, it's more of an Archer than it is a Bard.

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You say they aren't unique, and in the same message you acknowledge that it's not the standard "Final Fantasy Bard" (based on DnD job archetypes) because it is melded with archer.

That is a unique take on both jobs. The concept of a harp-bow is a unique take on both jobs.

And also, yet again, I will reiterate that both jobs in isolation are boring AF, and that is why they were combined. Archer has very little variety, and Bard has very little agency. The two flavors work together and save each other from mediocrity. And if not Archer/Bard, they would have had to be combined with *some* other concept to have any interesting/dynamic identity in a high-fantasy action-ish RPG. This isn't Skyrim. This isn't Dark Souls. If you want a "pure" archer, go play your boring, cream-of-wheat low-fantasy jobs in those games. It just isn't happening in XIV, and if you're looking at the past ten years of design and thinking otherwise, your powers of self-delusion are exceptional.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

You say they aren't unique, and in the same message you acknowledge that it's not the standard "Final Fantasy Bard" (based on DnD job archetypes) because it is melded with archer.

That is a unique take on both jobs. The concept of a harp-bow is a unique take on both jobs.

And also, yet again, I will reiterate that both jobs in isolation are boring AF, and that is why they were combined. Archer has very little variety, and Bard has very little agency. The two flavors work together and save each other from mediocrity. And if not Archer/Bard, they would have had to be combined with *some* other concept to have any interesting/dynamic identity in a high-fantasy action-ish RPG. This isn't Skyrim. This isn't Dark Souls. If you want a "pure" archer, go play your boring, cream-of-wheat low-fantasy jobs in those games. It just isn't happening in XIV, and if you're looking at the past ten years of design and thinking otherwise, your powers of self-delusion are exceptional.

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I literally implied on the same post, and said on a previous post that Bard is one of the unique ones they have. Does it mean it's good though?

And honestly I beg to differ about how they work together when both ideas do not even balance each other. It's why there's a rift between Bard players who want a real Bard, and Bard players who were disappointed that it didn't evolve more into Archery like the class they started with.

It's really funny you ignored my entire point anyway about Final Fantasy having these "boring, cream-of-wheat low-fantasy" Jobs. Paladin, Warrior, Monk, Black Mage, White Mage and many more fall under the typical cookie-cutter RPG class stereotypes. They're not unique and I wouldn't pretend they're not. Again, it's not a bad thing but if someone is being self-delusional, it's honestly you.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH could feel more machinist-like if instead of summoning Queen and forgetting, you could hop into the mech and pilot it, kinda like how Reaper.

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You mean word for word exactly like reaper. Idk if it’s the same person saying this “we should stop being a machinist and start being a mech pilot” idea floating around which is as bad as the whole “let MCH have a res for no logical reason” but I’ve seen the request one too many times to be annoyed by it now.

Yes the turrets are currently the worst incantation we have ever had in the games history, no having some mech out of blue won’t solve this.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Agree with all the OP’s points about Bard.

Unfortunately the developers and vast majority of the Bard community do not.

We will never see a full-on FF Bard job with a support oriented job with harp as their main weapon in all its glory.

We will never see a full-on Archer job that focuses solely on the laser beam archery stuff that dominates Bard’s gameplay.

I absolutely think they should be split so the identity of both jobs squished into this hybrid can be fully realised and not halved to make space for the fact you’re playing two different jobs at once. But, tragically, it won’t ever happen. I mean why would they when Bard is so massively popular

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Sorry But they already did a full support Bard with it's "main weapon" being music instrument in FF11 (But the base class was still archer).....And, seriously, FFXIV Bard is 100000000000000000000000000000 times better.

Because, with FFXI bard, the only things you did for an entire fight was : Running and hitting two Macro Buttons....

Yup.... Running to the front and hitting Macro for Buffing Melee Characters (Tank and DPS), then running to the back and Hitting Macro for Buffing Ranged/Magical Chacters (DPS and Healer).... but when you finished Buffing the Back you must run back to the front for Buffing melee because their buffs will soon run out.... then you must run back to the back because Ranged/Magical characters will have their buffs run out... Rinse and repeat for the entire fight

When i was playing Bard on FFXI; i was never hearing the battle music (it's not like on FFXIV, for hearing Battle music your characters itself must be considered in battle....)

So, no, no and no..... Never again a full Support Bard made in SQNEX

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Originally Posted by Lorim

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FFXI and FFXIV are two different games.

I highly doubt if they went with the musical instrument weapon as their direction, it'd be "running and hitting two macros" especially when there's no pure support class in this game and every role deals damage.