Changes that I would love for Gunbreaker (and maybe general tank changes)

Hey guys I posted this discussion in FFXIVDiscussion sub and I brough it here for further exposure

This is not a numbers discussion! Numbers can always be moved and rebalanced so the overall damage meets the threshold SE wants. This is more a discussion of the feel of the role and Job, how fun it can be to play etc etc...

I've been playing this game for way long and have been a DPS main most of my XIV life (have always been a casual Tank up to Extremes). Endwalker is the first expansion where I main the Tank role and play savage with it... in PF... and most of my perspective is current.

Continuation: -Increase the range of all Continuation attacks-
This button is fun to have, not going to lie. It gives me the good chemicals to mash the shit out of it! That being said, it is hella restrictive on boss movement! Let's not even talk about high ping play where your button press doesn't even register as you move… I honestly feel that increasing the range on it a bit would alleviate some of the problems this brings. Some have thrown out the idea of removing the whole thing and reworking it but honestly I can’t imagine the Job without it and lets be real SE would just turn it into another Diet Warrior.

Sonic Break: -Remove it-
Problem?? This is just a damage button, it doesn’t add anything to your rotation or your aesthetic and frankly I’m surprised it’s still here.

Double Down: -Lower the cost to 1 gauge-
Is there a reason it’s 2? Is it lore? I don’t know but I would love to Burst Strike more instead with the remainder of my powder gauges, and I think it adds a bit more flexibility to how you use them.

No Mercy -Rework into charges-
Here is my pipe dream idea (and probably the one most disagree with). Hitting No Mercy gives you 3 charges for 30 seconds (think Delirium). Charges are only spent on your next 3 Powder Gauge moves, heavily increasing their damage. My idea would hopefully remove the ping restriction of having to fit 9 GCDs within the window and free the other OGCDs from having to be used within it.

Blast Zone -Slightly increase range and should be a cleave-
Nothing inherently wrong with the move now but can we please?

General Tank changes speedrun:

-No damage on gap closers (or at least make it insignificant for the lore lol). It looks dumb to spam and it’s a utility tool.

-Rampart removed and baked into less used Mitigations or brand new ones with perks (Camouflage with %50 Parry, Dark Mind with additional mit if Magical, Paladin with… idk a regen or additional healing increase, and Warrior with additional Testosterone)

-Provoke should just take all threat from the current top threat player (Honestly this is to avoid stealing hate back and all that, ez swaps). By the same token Shirk should do literally the opposite…

Please share your ideas about anything tank related!!! QoLs and give feedback on what you think!!

Hum, the increase range of continuation is a good idea, although I would push for an engine upgrade that allows the boss to move while we as tanks move. Similar to WoW in that regard.

Everything else I see no point in changing or straight up disagree with, especially the double down and No mercy rework.

I had a strong hatred for double down when the expansion first came out but after getting more accustomed with the current gunbreaker I personally really like it and feels natural to use!

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Originally Posted by Engel

Continuation: -Increase the range of all Continuation attacks-

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Agreed. The change to Iaijutsu feels great and this would feel about the same, though I find this "boss movement" complaint to be pretty overstated.

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Originally Posted by Engel

Sonic Break: -Remove it-
Problem?? This is just a damage button, it doesn’t add anything to your rotation or your aesthetic and frankly I’m surprised it’s still here.

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Strongly disagree. This is a completely reductive argument that could apply to anything. By this justification, every job should just be reduced to 1 button (at most) since everything else would just be another damage/heal button.

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Originally Posted by Engel

Double Down: -Lower the cost to 1 gauge-

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There are 3 slots and DD costs 2 is to meaningfully disrupt the rotation from what it was before since bloodfest also generates 3 ammo. If DD were only 1 slot it would just degenerate to "use it instead of burst strike". It would remove "flexibility" because the optimal solution becomes much simpler, not add it. I also wish there were ways to use Burst Strike more, like an RNG proc or something, but this won't really help.

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Originally Posted by Engel

No Mercy -Rework into charges-
Here is my pipe dream idea (and probably the one most disagree with). Hitting No Mercy gives you 3 charges for 30 seconds (think Delirium).

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Let me just stop you at "think Delirium" and move on.

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Originally Posted by Engel

Blast Zone -Slightly increase range and should be a cleave-

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This just sounds like change for change's sake. It could maybe use something to differentiate it from the other similar oGCDs across the tank jobs, maybe make it fully ranged?

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Originally Posted by Engel

-No damage on gap closers (or at least make it insignificant for the lore lol). It looks dumb to spam and it’s a utility tool.

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Seems like another popular opinion these days but... have you considered just not using them for damage? On new blind content putting yourself in an animation lock is not worth the damage or opportunity cost of needing later when/if you're out of position.

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Originally Posted by Engel

-Rampart removed and baked into less used Mitigations or brand new ones with perks (Camouflage with %50 Parry, Dark Mind with additional mit if Magical, Paladin with… idk a regen or additional healing increase, and Warrior with additional Testosterone)

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No. Having more mitigation buttons and the choice of when to overlap them is better than fewer. Removing them just messes with the skill ceiling while doing nothing to the floor.

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Originally Posted by Engel

-Provoke should just take all threat from the current top threat player (Honestly this is to avoid stealing hate back and all that, ez swaps). By the same token Shirk should do literally the opposite…

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Huge no. Again, messes with the skill ceiling while adding nothing. A successful tank hand off is not hard and it's one of the few remaining responsibilities tanks have regarding aggro management and not pulling off each other.

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Originally Posted by Aegis_Harvey

Agreed. The change to Iaijutsu feels great and this would feel about the same, though I find this "boss movement" complaint to be pretty overstated.


Strongly disagree. This is a completely reductive argument that could apply to anything. By this justification, every job should just be reduced to 1 button (at most) since everything else would just be another damage/heal button.


There are 3 slots and DD costs 2 is to meaningfully disrupt the rotation from what it was before since bloodfest also generates 3 ammo. If DD were only 1 slot it would just degenerate to "use it instead of burst strike". It would remove "flexibility" because the optimal solution becomes much simpler, not add it. I also wish there were ways to use Burst Strike more, like an RNG proc or something, but this won't really help.


Let me just stop you at "think Delirium" and move on.


This just sounds like change for change's sake. It could maybe use something to differentiate it from the other similar oGCDs across the tank jobs, maybe make it fully ranged?


Seems like another popular opinion these days but... have you considered just not using them for damage? On new blind content putting yourself in an animation lock is not worth the damage or opportunity cost of needing later when/if you're out of position.


No. Having more mitigation buttons and the choice of when to overlap them is better than fewer. Removing them just messes with the skill ceiling while doing nothing to the floor.

Huge no. Again, messes with the skill ceiling while adding nothing. A successful tank hand off is not hard and it's one of the few remaining responsibilities tanks have regarding aggro management and not pulling off each other.

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Its quite hilarious in the response to Sonic Break you complain thats its a reductive argument and then respond with an even more reductive argument.

LOLOL Why dont we just make every Job 1 button LOLOL

Also, Rampart doesnt need to exist anymore. Dont need to have Rampart and the tank's 30% damage reduction cooldown anymore. Tanks have enough defensives now.

Lastly ...."skill ceiling"? Really?! You should be a comedian because thats funny.

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Originally Posted by Engel

No Mercy -Rework into charges-
Here is my pipe dream idea (and probably the one most disagree with). Hitting No Mercy gives you 3 charges for 30 seconds (think Delirium). Charges are only spent on your next 3 Powder Gauge moves, heavily increasing their damage. My idea would hopefully remove the ping restriction of having to fit 9 GCDs within the window and free the other OGCDs from having to be used within it.

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No, please no... DRK already suffered this fate, GNB doesn't need to suffer it too... Save the free gauge/spam abilities for WAR...

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Originally Posted by Aegis_Harvey

There are 3 slots and DD costs 2 is to meaningfully disrupt the rotation from what it was before since bloodfest also generates 3 ammo. If DD were only 1 slot it would just degenerate to "use it instead of burst strike". It would remove "flexibility" because the optimal solution becomes much simpler, not add it. I also wish there were ways to use Burst Strike more, like an RNG proc or something, but this won't really help.

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Probably the one hill I'll die on is wondering why people think having Double Down costing two cartridges is better than one. I've seen multiple answers, but it still does not make sense to me and that the two cost is artificial inflation to make it "feel" like it's worth more than it actually is.

"If DD were only 1 slot it would just degenerate to "use it instead of burst strike"." - but this is already the case.
"It would remove "flexibility"" - It's a partial reason why GNB is LESS flexible now than it was in ShB. In ShB, you only absolutely needed 1 cartridge for a burst, because your burst mainly revolved around Gnashing Fang, and this kept all your cooldowns aligned. Meaning you could adjust when and where you spent your other gauge as the fight demanded. In EW, you absolutely need a full 3 cartridges per burst, or else a cooldown falls out of alignment. To which no other tank suffers this much between WAR's gauge, PLD's MP, or even DRK's gauge and MP, where for cooldowns sake only Living Shadow matters, and Blood Weapon will ensure you have that gauge in 3 GCDs! There is zero flexibility in GNB's rotation other than where you dump gauge for Bloodfest, but even then you are using Bloodfest on cooldown to maximize usages. Comparatively, Primal Rend is free on the activation of Inner Release, Shadowbringer is free on DRK, and the Confeiteor Combo on PLD is free on the activation of Requiscat, allows you to be ranged for 8 GCD's, and completely changes the PLD's rotation in a meaningful way. Why Double Down costs gauge to begin with, or why the costs is so high comparatively, is missed on me.

All the 1 cart cost does is make it really clunky on fights with downtime, makes it the most punished tank if you die before a burst(unless you happen to have Bloodfest), punishes you for dumping cartridges even if it would be the most optimal choice(can't cartridge dump onto mobs before a boss unless you have Bloodfest or you will be many GCD's behind the rest of your group), and to me just seems like a superficial "buff" to GNB going into EW. "How do we buff GNB? They have two carts, GIVE THEM THREE! They have one cart moves, GIVE THEM A TWO CART MOVE! Think how string the other players will think they feel!". I main'd GNB in ShB, and continue to do so in EW. However I personally only see positives if Double Down was changed to 1 cart, not quite understanding why people are so opposed to it as to me, clunky =/= skillful. If it were to change to one cart, you would still play GNB about the same, you would just have more flexibility with your cartridges and be less frustrated in certain scenarios overall.

Hmmm in regards to DD imagine it is exactly like now except it cost 1 PG. Maybe I wasn't clear... I would not nerf the thing or replace, in our current rotation it would just leave a Powder Gauge for another Burst Strike

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Probably the one hill I'll die on is wondering why people think having Double Down costing two cartridges is better than one. I've seen multiple answers, but it still does not make sense to me and that the two cost is artificial inflation to make it "feel" like it's worth more than it actually is.

"If DD were only 1 slot it would just degenerate to "use it instead of burst strike"." - but this is already the case.
"It would remove "flexibility"" - It's a partial reason why GNB is LESS flexible now than it was in ShB. In ShB, you only absolutely needed 1 cartridge for a burst, because your burst mainly revolved around Gnashing Fang, and this kept all your cooldowns aligned. Meaning you could adjust when and where you spent your other gauge as the fight demanded. In EW, you absolutely need a full 3 cartridges per burst, or else a cooldown falls out of alignment. To which no other tank suffers this much between WAR's gauge, PLD's MP, or even DRK's gauge and MP, where for cooldowns sake only Living Shadow matters, and Blood Weapon will ensure you have that gauge in 3 GCDs! There is zero flexibility in GNB's rotation other than where you dump gauge for Bloodfest, but even then you are using Bloodfest on cooldown to maximize usages. Comparatively, Primal Rend is free on the activation of Inner Release, Shadowbringer is free on DRK, and the Confeiteor Combo on PLD is free on the activation of Requiscat, allows you to be ranged for 8 GCD's, and completely changes the PLD's rotation in a meaningful way. Why Double Down costs gauge to begin with, or why the costs is so high comparatively, is missed on me.

All the 1 cart cost does is make it really clunky on fights with downtime, makes it the most punished tank if you die before a burst(unless you happen to have Bloodfest), punishes you for dumping cartridges even if it would be the most optimal choice(can't cartridge dump onto mobs before a boss unless you have Bloodfest or you will be many GCD's behind the rest of your group), and to me just seems like a superficial "buff" to GNB going into EW. "How do we buff GNB? They have two carts, GIVE THEM THREE! They have one cart moves, GIVE THEM A TWO CART MOVE! Think how string the other players will think they feel!". I main'd GNB in ShB, and continue to do so in EW. However I personally only see positives if Double Down was changed to 1 cart, not quite understanding why people are so opposed to it as to me, clunky =/= skillful. If it were to change to one cart, you would still play GNB about the same, you would just have more flexibility with your cartridges and be less frustrated in certain scenarios overall.

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You hit the nail on the head for me!

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Originally Posted by Xiaoki

Its quite hilarious in the response to Sonic Break you complain thats its a reductive argument and then respond with an even more reductive argument.
LOLOL Why dont we just make every Job 1 button LOLOL

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I didn't make a reductive argument, I extended their logic ad absurdum. This is precisely why I used the three preceding words "By this justification". Please read my posts more carefully in the future.

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Originally Posted by Xiaoki

Also, Rampart doesnt need to exist anymore. Dont need to have Rampart and the tank's 30% damage reduction cooldown anymore. Tanks have enough defensives now.

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Translation: Tanks have the right number of defensives now so we should reduce the number of defensives they have.

Neat.

Wouldn't it be better if we tried to engage with each other in good faith instead of like this?

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Probably the one hill I'll die on is wondering why people think having Double Down costing two cartridges is better than one.

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I would like to point out that I didn't say 2 vs 1 was better. As far as its impact on the on-paper rotation goes, a cost of 2 (plus 3 total carts and 3 cart bloodfest) changes the timings more than a cost of 1 would and the penalties for screwing up your ammo gen are greater, naturally. For the same reason, the penalties are also higher for the situations you point out (death, downtime). I guess we're just using two different senses of the word "flexibility" here.

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Originally Posted by Aegis_Harvey

I would like to point out that I didn't say 2 vs 1 was better. As far as its impact on the on-paper rotation goes, a cost of 2 (plus 3 total carts and 3 cart bloodfest) changes the timings more than a cost of 1 would and the penalties for screwing up your ammo gen are greater, naturally. For the same reason, the penalties are also higher for the situations you point out (death, downtime). I guess we're just using two different senses of the word "flexibility" here.

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I would genuinely like to know what flexibility you are referring to then. There is no real flexibility in current GNB's gauge usage like the other jobs have, being able to use even a single gauge whenever you want without it negatively affecting the cooldowns and rotation of the next upcoming burst. The current GNB rotation is a bit jank at the moment, with no simple 1-4 minute loop like most other jobs have(and like GNB used to have in ShB), and requiring you to use No Mercy after Gnashing Fang in your "3 cart + Bloodfest" bursts for optimal damage. I do not know if simply changing the cost of Double Down to 1 cart would automatically fix those issues, that would require some simulation testing, but I think the job would feel a lot smoother like it used to in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

but I think the job would feel a lot smoother like it used to in ShB.

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It doesn't even sound like we disagree much then, to me the smoothness of EW GNB feels "fine" but I don't have much ShB GNB experience to compare it to. GNB's lack of a simple loop is almost certainly because of the increase to the ammo gauge, the bloodfest change, the 2 cost on DD, and the way the recasts on all-of-the-above interact. This means the hole that DD fills in each of its recasts "looks" slightly different than, say, the state of a PLD each time they cast Confiteor. This is the sense that I mean it's more "flexible", because its forced to fit a wider range of states than, say, Confiteor. This is half of what makes GNB feel compelling to play at the level of execution of rotation, but I'm also happy to concede that the very same mechanics that give GNB that flavor cause the problems you mention in your earlier post.

I can't say if this is an oversight by the devs, but the way the numbers look and the execution feels, my impression is that this is an intentional feature of EW GNB. I do enjoy it, but if they do end up changing it and I enjoy the result more I will, without any sarcasm at all, come back here and say you were right.

All No Mercy needs is an extra few seconds (say 3-5) added to the duration.

They added Hypervelocity into the burst window but didn't increase the burst window so getting the 9 GCD's is tight.

I like the continuation range increase. All these GBRs complaining about not being able to move the boss at all with single weaves (which u can, though not nearly as quickly as w/o weaves). I imagine double weaves would still be impossible to move anything with.

All the rest, sorry mate, hard pass.

I'm still not really feeling the frustration of Double Down requiring two charges, even in dungeons, but at the same time the brief novelty of having to track whether I'd have a 6-cart burst, a full lull, or a Bloodfest lull within the next minute has also faded, so I can't say it's adding much of a thematic component to the job. As such, I wouldn't mind Double Down being reduced to a single charge, such that we need only 2 carts to open into a burst.

I do like the idea of Danger/Blasting Zone being a linear AoE with increased range. Such seems fitting and likely to be capable of some add-grab utility.

Two yalm's worth of added Continuation range seems (more than) plenty. Its added range should go unnoticed outside of the few situations to which it grants QoL.

I see no point in the No Mercy change or Sonic Break's removal.

As for the general changes, I'd prefer job-specific means of mitigation (and the 30%s being diversified), but I do not want less modular control over my mitigation. Provoke need not steal all aggro, only enough to make Shirk unnecessary. Shirk, meanwhile, could afford either to (A) purge far more enmity and to default to the next highest enmity tank, if any (else, just purge enmity), if no ally is targeted or (B) be pruned.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

All No Mercy needs is an extra few seconds (say 3-5) added to the duration.

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All it needs is to be of such a length that one doesn't feel like they're forced into a higher portion of lower potency-per-GCD skills. While that could be achieved with more seconds in this case, it could also be done by shortening the duration slightly. Alternatively, decreasing Double Down's cost can also (A) push out n GCDs of low value skills that we'd rather shift out of the rotation regardless where left with multiple GCDs before being able to get off one more high-value hit or (B) allow for n more GCDs of higher value skills where on the cusp of getting off one more.

I like and agree with all of them, except for No Mercy being stacks. That just homogenizes things further, I'd rather avoid that.

On the day that they turn No Mercy into another mindless charge system that reduces your burst window down to "press these 3 cartridge GCDs for free and then hammer whatever oGCDs you like, in any order" is the day I'm done, because I'll have lost my last shred of faith in their ability to design anything engaging.

having "charges" only feels OK on WAR and I preferred the 5 cleaves before. I hope they remove it on delirium and change the ability entirely. getting rid of rampart is also bad, instead I'd just make it another unique separate ability on the other tanks and leave it as is on PLD. GNB cartridge spam being changed to 1 button in EW felt bad and I haven't picked it back up yet because of it, would revert if possible; blast zone getting a cone aoe sounds pretty good but then it would need a potency reduction, bad trade off imo. gap closers being burst window sh*t is bad, hard agree. sonic break being removed seems pointless.
ideal changes: WAR is the charge gauge tank, DRK is the ogcd master, PLD offers the best support/self sustain, GNB has the best mix of dmg/sustain
dps: DRK/WAR>GNB/PLD
survivability: PLD/WAR>GNB/DRK
support: PLD/GNB>WAR/DRK