I've raided for a long time now and every tier I had to deal with Savage PF (once it became cross-world). Let me tell you that while there are sometimes one or two people who are utterly irredeemable and your best bet is to leave immediately, by far the majority of PFs I've been in wipe to mistakes distributed more or less equally among the players, sometimes including me.
What PF needs isn't skill or more awareness. It's patience. Leaving and tilting after two wipes at two different places due to different players is only going to make the problem worse. In my experience the most successful PFs are the ones that are patient with no obvious weak links.
The reason why PF rewards patience is twofold: first, everyone has a "personality" in terms of how they move, what their preferred spots are, or even down to things like when they decide to greed a cast and run in to solve a mechanic. Every time you disband you gotta learn these quirks all over again. While they might not be too pertinent in Savage, in Ultimates it is a real thing. In Savage, some main tanks prefer to grab tether in Phoinix to the north. Some prefer grabbing it towards northwest. Some melees prefer going into the center of the boss during Ashplume + Firestorms. Some BLMs prefer sitting in their Ley Lines until the last second for the first Aetherial Shackles which can sometimes scare people into overadjusting. All these little things can cause wipes if players are not sufficiently aware to adjust for these little behavioral quirks, which you should honestly not expect in PF.
Second, impatience, especially if you express it in party chat, just causes tilt and makes people lose focus. It should be obvious why this is a problem.
The reason why I dodge PF and mostly raid with my static is not actually primarily due to their skill level. I think most people in PF play reasonably well for the encounter. It's actually mostly due to the impatience. People leave after two wipes, or start fighting with a single death, or start tilting and make all kinds of mistakes. Raiding isn't just a skill check, it's also a mental check. Being able to keep your cool, be patient, and have enough awareness of different people's personalities to adjust for them is an important skill that PF doesn't have. I spent 4 hours today reclearing P3S and it could've been done in 1 if people didn't just leave after one or two pulls. The impatience is the real reason why PF is bad.
Also, as an addendum, the fact that NA PF is often so impatient that they don't even want to briefly discuss Ashplume spread spots before the pull, and end up wiping to Ashplume spread 8 mins into the encounter is just stupid. People really need to be patient to spend literally just one minute talking about spread spots.
And, I don't want to generalize but in my experience the ones who are the most impatient are typically the ones whose raider profile on a certain website doesn't paint them in a very positive light.
You guys gotta learn to be patient in PF
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02-12-2022, 11:46 AMSkirosYou guys gotta learn to be patient in PF
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02-12-2022, 11:56 AMLittleChickenNugget
I don't have time to waste on a computer game I play hours a day, Skiros.
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02-12-2022, 12:01 PMAtelier-BagurI dont have time to spend time on playing a game- oh wait...Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget
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02-12-2022, 12:06 PMEgilTheStressedMage
Don't start or join a farm party if you suck.
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02-12-2022, 12:28 PMMandudez
You have clearly not been in NA PF recently if you think that only some parties have one or two players treating it like normal mode. Try over half AT LEAST.
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02-12-2022, 12:33 PMEquitable_RemedyI don't follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiros
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02-12-2022, 01:27 PMLieri
PF disband usually begins with someone who thinks theyre better than the rest of the party. Be it the person themselves that act that way after a few wipes or the descriptions on PF that doesnt match reality. I can understand being frustrated in a "clear" party when it keeps wiping at the first mechanic.
However I cant understand people who join a prog party and expecting mechanics to be executed perfectly. Those. Those are the worst and once they throw a tantrum and leave the rest of party usually follow. -
02-12-2022, 02:12 PMSenorPatty
What PF needs is people who can read and UNDERSTAND what they're reading
Know mechanics doesn't mean Know mechanic. One is plural, the other isn't. If you only know ONE mechanic, guess what? You don't know mechanicS
Farm Party is not Clear Party.
Clear Party is not Farm Party.
3 wipes = disband is not a reason to harangue the party leader about why they disbanded when 3 wipes occurred.
Too many mistakes = kick is not a reason to hassle the party leader about why you got kicked for too many mistakes.
The better you understand, the less of a trap you're making the party ought to be. -
02-12-2022, 02:24 PMRobynDaBank
You really, really want to have hot threads under your belt do you? It's almost like you're building a portfolio!
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02-12-2022, 02:33 PMSkirosBro I just got annoyed I had to spend so much time doing weeklies. I just wanted to play Lost Ark but had to deal with the drama and tilt in PF lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RobynDaBank
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02-12-2022, 02:58 PMAtelier-BagurThese hot threads are selling like hot cakes!Quote:
Originally Posted by RobynDaBank
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02-12-2022, 06:07 PMIrisdina_Wiloh
100% agreed, especially on that last point about spread spots in 3s, felt that pain when I tried to pf a clear of 3s in week 2.
I've tried PFing multiple tiers and I burn out so hard due to the behaviour of NA players it's almost unreal. This tier I had a bit more success using PF, almost clearing 3s in PF because rather than the party blowing up after one death, we stayed together for like 2 hours until we finally threw the towel in due to just not being able to meet the dps check. People owned up to making mistakes or playing poorly. That's what people need to be more like. There is such a lack of accountability in PF, people wont admit when they messed up and would rather sit in silence, repeating the same mistakes than say "sorry that was me". You also get the opposite end of the spectrum with players instantly diving on anyone who makes a tiny mistake. I got blamed once for a wipe in e9s, where I apparently greeded a gcd during brambles and the PLD jumped on me instantly. I hadn't done anything wrong and over the next few pulls the PLD messed up multiple times, which is just classic PF at this point really.
Having a static is far better than using PF but PF could be so much better if people just chose to try and be better people rather than expecting to be carried, joining parties for fights/mechanics they're not ready for or looking to start fights over one wipe in an enrage party. Can't see it happening personally and I'm so much happier now I'm in a static again but I feel for the people who have to pug every week, you never know how long it might take you to reclear (if you even get to reclear) when you're pugging. -
02-12-2022, 06:10 PMJin-
Patience problem also applies to duty finder. Some bolt if the duty doesn't start in a minute or two.
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02-12-2022, 06:52 PMSkirosYeah I honestly think it's mostly the new raiders who are this impatient lol. Vets already know what PF is like and have proper expectations and temper themselves instead of tilting out at... expected PF behavior. It also doesn't help that there are so many healers in PF that act like they're in a coordinated static and not a group of randos who likely are using their mitigations randomly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh
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02-12-2022, 06:54 PMLierihttps://i.imgflip.com/64xz4k.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Jin-
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02-12-2022, 06:55 PMBreakbeat
I am NA, I am patient, in the extreme.
Thanks for lumping me in there though... 'cause I am also part of "you guys".
Generalizations suck, specifically because of this. You do a disservice to the good folks when you generalize.
So, never do it. Ever.
"I think some folks that use PF could use more patience."
See, it's entirely possible to do, while getting across the same exact point. -
02-12-2022, 06:57 PMSkirosdo you go around all day finding posts so you can feel victimized when no one is even calling you specifically outQuote:
Originally Posted by Breakbeat
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02-12-2022, 07:08 PMIckeDerTyp
Cute
/10 -
02-12-2022, 07:10 PMsmol_cofe
yea people get really mad about wipes fast but wont call positions to avoid them before pulling.
example: one person is pf leader, let's say tank this time, as soon as the instance is readied they begin ready check while someone else is asking for macro and another is asking for strat and another for positions...before macro even finishes almost everyone has agreed to ready and haven't food buffed yet and the countdown is started; now half way into the fight there's a wipe and some people act suprised while others are already salty because they wasted pots. one more wipe and people say last then disband because announcing last is just asking for griefing/bickering in these types of groups. -
02-12-2022, 08:53 PMLiam_HarperEvery static I've been in has wiped during reclears some weeks. Sometimes the silliest mistakes, but you just laugh it off and go again. I've watched world first raid teams, rank 1 players, triple legends and the rest wipe multiple times to silly mistakes. It's human and it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage
PF's "2 mistakes = kick, or disband" nonsense is completely unrealistic. Especially in a group full of people who don't even know each other. Sure, if someone's clearly new to the fight or playing their class wrong, get rid of them. But kicking a solid player over a slip up or two, or throwing the entire group away, is shooting yourself in the foot. Yet it happens constantly. -
02-12-2022, 09:09 PMSturmChurroI think many understand well enough what they are reading. They want a potential free ride, hoping others will follow what's written to enable them to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorPatty
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02-12-2022, 11:00 PMMerriganThis is a huge problem. Being a bit late, I'm currently trying to clear the 3rd boss. And I am - literally - stuck in P1.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Is this a problem with the difficulty of this phase? Of course not. It's the one that looks the easiest in the whole fight. The problem is actually players who sign up for PF that require a known P1; but don't know it perfectly, and make everyone wipe over and over.
Result: you wanted to train for the add phase and beyond. You end up mothering people on a phase you know perfectly well.
I'm one of those people who are patient with a game. I've never insulted anyone; I'm happy to explain things; and I usually give the group at least ten chances. Often much more, because I play healer and I know that the departure of a "key role" can lead to disbandment.
But people need to pay more attention to the requirements, and not assume that "well, it'll pass, I'll take one or two AOEs but the others will make up for it". It's just as disrespectful as the super-elitist player who can't stand one false move (even though we've all made them).
(And yes, I'm venting some of my frustration here. It's better than doing it IG...). -
02-12-2022, 11:43 PMSkirosExactly. It's honestly just another sort of casual toxicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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02-13-2022, 12:59 AMMandudezThe huge difference is you know those people know the fight perfectly and won't keep making mistakes over and over. There is no guarantee of that with people you don't know in PF. Especially when those people don't even say anything about their mistake and hope that no one notices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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02-13-2022, 02:42 AMRaoabolicYet when it becomes a generalization, then that usually means it is something to at least look at and see if there is an issue. This is coming from a NA player, the community from 2.0 is VERY different than 6.0 and you would have to be blind to miss it. I much prefer the jp mentality of it takes 1 minute longer than the na mentality of min maxing a video game. I just wish our community had a nice middle ground instead of people refusing to use oGCDs yell at people that will kick you if your opener isn't 100% optimized and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakbeat
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02-13-2022, 03:02 AMLittleImp
Absolutely. I've had quite a few instances this tier where I've had to talk someone down who was threatening to leave after 2-3 wipes. I try to explain to them that their constant party-hopping is probably a big part of the reason they haven't cleared yet. Unsurprisingly we usually kill 1-2 pulls later in those parties. It's particularly common if you're helping out clear parties for fights people tend to get stuck on.
A lot of it seems to stem from the old dunning-kruger effect. So... SO many of the people I've seen rage out and leave parties aren't even performing well.
LMAO YES. I've ranted about this EXACT THING so many times. The amount of times I've entered a p3s party and been told to "stop being stupid and use your eyes" only to watch that persons entire light party die to the first Ashplume spread EVERY TIME. P3S really makes the JP macro system look more appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiros
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02-13-2022, 04:28 AMJeeqbitI agree although it depends. Sometimes it's obvious that the party is capable of doing it and is doing everything flawless and the mistakes are just that, mistakes. A little more patience would have got the clear. Sometimes though, you can tell that there are people who cleared without being good at the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiros
You are spot on about the problem with Party Finder being that everyone has different habits, different positions and strategies that they are used to. They are used to the subtle movements and buffing habits of the people in their original clear party and because these habits are different in another party, it can take some wipes to get used to eachother.
This problem is reduced on EU data centers because of the use of macros, where positions are pre-determined. If you are the off-tank, you are always in the same place for every mechanic in every party and that is a lot better than what happens in NA. -
02-13-2022, 09:56 AMKolsykol
If it's a practice party I have patience.
If it's a clear group/ seen enrage group I have limited patience. -
02-14-2022, 08:26 AMArchlordPieBefore I joined my current static, I was a "3 wipes = kicks or disband" leader, but I also got a week 1 P2S kill and week 2 P3S kill with complete pugs. The trick is that you use those 3 wipes to gather information and then act on that information instead of blindly disbanding. If you get 3 wipes that are caused by 3 different people at 3 different points in the fight, put it up to a vote. Both of those kills came from groups that hit 3 wipes and got asked "should we disband" and said "no, let's keep all 8 of us around and keep at it". I didn't actually have to kick or disband in either case, because even though the P2S party took an hour and a half to fill (playing at off-peak hours + "3 wipes = kicks or disband" tends to do that), I wound up with a team of 8 people who were consistent with Limit Cut and knew the rest of the mechanics, and we hammered out a kill over an hour or so. P3S took the better part of 6 hours with mostly the same group (had to replace the offtank due to our first one getting IRL aggro, but the new one knew the fight), but after hitting our three wipe "limit", deciding to keep trying, and immediately seeing a 2% enrage on the fourth wipe, everyone was like "yeah let's buckle down, everyone food and pot, clean it up and we'll kill" and we got it in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
The whole point of that line is to scare off people who know for sure they're going to trap the party. I include that in my clear party descriptions because if I don't do that, we otherwise don't have any filters at all on who can join aside from item level (which is eventually irrelevant) and duty completion status, which doesn't help when you know the fight just as well as the people who have cleared, but you can't actually get the kill because you keep getting trapped.
This is more than fair. If you've seen enrage multiple times and are consistent with all the fight mechanics, you have every right to expect the same of your teammates and to leave groups that advertise themselves as meeting that standard when they actually don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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02-14-2022, 08:38 AMICountFrom0
Hot take:
Don't be patient in duty finder.
Leave it, go do something else, come back next week.
This will make the que shorter for me, and the people who ARE able to be patient and calm. It'll also leave me better more level headed and kinder people to run PF dungeons with. -
02-14-2022, 09:17 AMShuuliI make PF declaring this: Myta nado, Spread on glory: TR outter circle, HM inner circle- G1spread Right (the NE group) G2 (the SW group) spread left int heir circle position - here are visuals: https://ibb.co/QH0bjT4Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh
And people don't read it... I even ask, hey do you have any questions? Then no answer. There is so much a party lead can tolerate honestly...
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorPatty
I mostly not needed to kick people. But in my 3 weeks of trying to clear P3S on PF I have seen following people join
- Healers, Tanks or DPS who just don't know their job well.
- People who think they can freeload (visibly getting all dmg downs and dying a lot)
- People who really are just complete trolls... there are actual trolls that cleared already and just join your group to intentionally mess up. Fortunately it only happened to me once.
- People who refuse to use pots and food in a clear party - they already go in with a mindset that this will fail - I understand this as it is gil, but if a dps does not eat food, they will constantly give more job to the healers...
Some people are already joining the 4th or 5th failing group just that day. So they are also not very patient. But calling out issues is actually the way to go... (I dont mean shaming, but discussing problems). However, playing savage in NA is like walking on eggshells with the snowflake mentality of some people. Some people are just getting angry when you tell them "look I saw you going right 4 pulls on dive bomb when you are a healer, can you pls go left?"
My clear finally came with a team, that was willing to DISCUSS what went wrong and adjust. Yes, you need to be patient. But you also want to keep your sanity and minimize the above mentioned people who need a reality check before becoming an actual team players.
The worst thing happened to me today. I joined a Hyda farm and the reaper did not attack the crystals cause "that does not generate enough gauge". We reached enrage. A 587 ilevel party, on a 560 ilevel content. This person then got pulled by our healer in the next run and jumped back to the adds... then proceeded to die on the mechanics following. Party disbanded. Thank god.