Something always bothered me about the Ea. When you get to their section of Ultima Thule, every Ea you meet hints at some great knowledge about the universe they gained and how it's a terrible secret that they don't want to share with you, because it would take away your ignorance.
When they finally acquiesce and share their knowledge with you, it's...all the stars will eventually blink out and the universe will freeze over. Everything dies.
I immediately thought as I was watching this, "So?" I mean, humans in real life have known about this for decades. We even know roughly when our world will die, when our sun will become a white dwarf, and that our galaxy will collide with the Andromeda galaxy. We are even beginning to calculate when all the stars, planets, galaxies etc. in the observable universe will "blink out".
And do you know what the collective reaction humanity has had to this "shocking" information? "Hm. Cool. Anyway..."
It seems strange to me that such an advanced civilization like the Ea would be thrown into such a state of nihilism and despair after discovering that the universe will end someday. That all their achievements will be for nothing and that they, like everyone else, will be forgotten. To me that seems rather trivial and immature. Of course everything dies. Including the universe itself. Trying to attach meaning to all of that is, in my opinion, the inherent flaw.
Life has no meaning at all. Neither does the universe. It's not supposed to. Whatever meaning exists has to be defined by the individual. The drama of life plays out wherever life exists. It is not for existential debate. It is for living and nothing more. I think that's what Emet-Selch meant when he said that Hermes' question he tasked the Meteia with asking was flawed. "What is the meaning of life?" Uh...absolutely nothing.
So, if lowly humans can figure this out and can get on just fine (relatively speaking, of course; some would say we are not getting on fine at all) then why can't the Ea? Why was this revelation treated as such a big deal? Enough to break an entire civilization's will to live?
If there was some detail I'm not remembering I'd love to be reminded.
Revelation about the universe (SPOILERS)
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02-11-2022, 04:12 AMLiumRevelation about the universe (SPOILERS)
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02-11-2022, 04:17 AMCanadane
They not being human may have reacted to this information differently than we did. Being a type 2 or 3 civilization may have also had something to do with it.
You can't always apply human-level understanding to non-human species. -
02-11-2022, 04:30 AMelioaiko
Yeah agree with Canadane, they're not human and not even from the same time period as us, we don't know what they value as important.
But I get what you're saying OP, because constantly worrying about the world eventually dying is pointless–all good things die eventually.
The Ea is an ancient race long past, and like many other ancient civilizations, they were trying to prevent the world from dying and couldn't and this frightens them because it's a grim fate for the final generation to witness it.
The whole angle of "the whole universe is ending" isn't new and it's not something that can be answered, even irl. -
02-11-2022, 04:42 AMEnkidoh
Part of the issue is the underlying theme that Meteion 'discovered' during their travels, that 'perfection' (as in, ascending to a higher plane of existence where the mind/soul no longer needs support of a physical body, and/or immortality) is actually fairly easy to attain. The problem is that in their haste to attain effective godhood, civilizations usually sacrificed something more tangeable in the process (as in, mental fortitude and wisdom to stave off boredom and apathy, and to comprehend the truths of the universe without slipping into despair and nihilism.). This was reflected in the Ea, a species who had attained perfection where their bodies became effectively just aether and immortal, and their minds hungered for knowledge at the expense of wisdom to make sense and effective use of that knowledge, hence they were ill-equipped to understand the 'revelation' about the universe's eventual demise by entropy.
Speaking with the Ea in Ultima Thule one gets the feeling they were effectively little more than vessels for information (much of it becoming eventually useless or trivial), information which they increasingly were unable to correlate or understand (look at how they treated 'eating', thinking it was simply an absorption of aether, having long forgotten what it was like to physically eat and could no longer understand the concept). No wonder that they were unable to comprehend the eventual heat death of the universe.
And it was not just the Ea who fell into that trap, the third civilization visited in the Dead Ends was also trapped in that way of thinking - having apparently sacrificed their actual planet to create a false Vauthry-like paradise where their every need was met and their lives fell into meaningless ennui, their lives stagnated to the point they became completely apathetic and the boredom soon drove them insane, only wishing for death, but apparently could not or would not euthanize themselves and so created a Primal-like false god to do it for them, probably just to "feel" something again.
The Elpis quests and FATEs actually hinted that even the Ancients were not immune to this and were starting to show signs of this way of thinking too (many of the researchers in Elpis lamented about a lack or stifling of creativity and that creation magics were reaching their limit about what they could do and so they were starting to despair over it - hence the WoL and their post-Sundering ways were considered a breath of fresh air (at least one researcher actually stated it in those exact words), injecting some much needed originality and inspiration into their work.
So one wonders if the Final Days hadn't occurred, that the Ancients too might have slipped eventually into a similar decadence and eventually, nihilism. It's a disturbing thought in any event. -
02-11-2022, 06:59 AMVeloranThis. I will say though, it is kind of baffling that the Ea could really find no solution to the entropy of the universe at all. Even the concept of heat-death seems pretty incongruent with the existence of magic to begin with. It's not like this is reality where the laws of physics operate as we know them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye
Something I've been thinking about recently is the nature of the sampling bias involved in the civilizations Meteion shows us. Not only were they chosen to paint the most hopeless picture possible, but by the nature of her powers they were also obviously susceptible to her attacks. The worlds that we see don't account for any other beings that might have had the ability to shield themselves from Dynamis, or operate on fundamentally different levels somehow. For example the Omicrons didn't exactly succumb to despair, it's more like they fell into a logic loop. In a similar way without the shield protecting Etheirys humanity also would have been consumed by Meteion's attack and been relegated to her example pile of failed societies, in the past or the present. So I wonder if there's more out there that we simply don't know about at the moment. -
02-11-2022, 07:11 AMLiumI think this is the answer I was looking for, and something I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye
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02-11-2022, 12:07 PMSilversLyu
The Ea are probably the most advanced race in the whole universe when it comes to knowledge, atleast at this point. Having dedicated their whole being, meaning and existence into this singular striving only to have this crumbling revelation about the universe.. would be quite the disaster for them as a whole to say the least. Who knows what else besides the "casual" immortality have they uncovered. All would be a matter of dust in their eyes. Cant really apply human terms to them.
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02-11-2022, 07:39 PMJandorThey're immortal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lium
I don't really care about the heat death of the Universe because I'll have already been dead for trillions of years when it happens, they will theoretically live to see the end.
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Edit: I should have read to the end of the thread before replying, it's not even that long :p -
02-11-2022, 09:14 PMLaurontEspecially since the setting has a made a point thus far of converting virtually every physical law into something mediated via aether instead - down to the functioning of radio waves. Stars (in the sense of the sun) being no different, consisting of fire aether - but with not much else known about them. I think it was virtually copy/pasted as a slightly nerdy reference for those aware of it, but thought hasn't yet been given to how it actually makes sense given the setting's very different laws for how things work. And because it's spun as a problem that is only ever going to arise in the very long term, they've little need to even return to address it, although perhaps they will come back to how this is to be interpreted in the setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
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02-11-2022, 09:30 PMGemina
The human race hasn't even been around a million years. Not even half of that. We can't even begin to comprehend the thought processes of a type 2, or 3 civilization that's been around as long as as the Ea. We're talking over a billion years here. It's hard enough to imagine a civilization being around that long without collectively destroying themselves, or undergoing a massive extinction event. Plus, they are not even human.
Be that as it may, acceptance of our inevitable end is what separates both us, and mankind in FFXIV from immortal beings. What is a true shame about the Ea is that they forsook the gift of life and the pleasures of the flesh to come to the conclusion that they did. Those who pursue the meaning of life always lose sight of it along the way. The less time you have to experience life, the more precious it becomes. Truth be told, beings like the ancients or the Ea can't even begin to grasp onto the meaning of life the way we do.
In their defense though, how would you handle knowing you would be around to witness the obliteration of our home world? Can you feel your attachment to the planet as you think about that? There's an older animation out there called Titan A.E. and is one of my favorites from when I was a kid. I remember watching the Earth get destroyed and just how devastating that would be to witness from a distance far away from the destruction. That sinking feeling in my gut was bad enough just thinking about it. I couldn't even imagine actually witnessing it. -
02-11-2022, 10:41 PMPicker
Ea should have got gud, made some tomb worlds, and slept for 60 million years
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02-12-2022, 02:14 AMLaurontI wouldn't look at it quite that way. I don't think their immortality (or rather, very long life span) was an obstacle to their steadfast resolve to prevent their own demise and the demise of their star. The ancients to me are closer to the dragons, in that both feature beings which are very long-lived and possess a host of fantastical powers and distinctly non-human traits, but nonetheless do share in some human aspects - certainly not quite human, but a mid-way to us in contrast to a more genuinely alien race like the Ea or Omicrons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
And I'd also argue they could very readily grasp this when confronted with premature demise, e.g. Elidibus in SoS:
Emet-Selch himself only eventually decided to rest after 12k years, and only after he was satisfied the sundered remnants of his former friend were up to the task. Fandaniel even mocked both the sundered and unsundered for this attachment to life.Quote:
This pain, this torment...is nothing! No more than must be suffered to deliver the world from its doom! No more than any of you malformed creatures have known!
Even should you lose all that is dear to you. Even should it cost you your life...
You bear the burden and fight on, kicking and screaming until your last breath is spent!
To make the point that they could end up in one of the Dead Ends, the game has to invoke the caricature world of the Plenty. True enough, they could end up that way given time (although as to whether it was inevitable is and will remain a matter of speculation.) But the ancients as we know them in any case are resolved to defend life as a concept and principle.
Agreed. And the ancients had an almost spiritual connection to the star, so to watch it die before their very eyes and beneath their feet, must've been traumatic in the extreme. Considering this would mean the cessation ultimately of even the cycle of life and death upon the star if taken to its conclusion. It was so badly damaged Zodiark had to restore it using many of them as fuel. Likewise, the dragons suffered watching their own star be despoiled, their ability to breed new life on their star taken from them, after enduring a senseless act of destruction that unravelled the raison d'etre of the very beings which administered it.Quote:
In their defense though, how would you handle knowing you would be around to witness the obliteration of our home world?
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02-12-2022, 12:13 PMGeminaThe ancients are closer to dragons opposed to..? Us? The comparison being made was to us, humans and mankind as it exists in FFXIV. I think what you've done is point out similarities between the Ancients and the Dragons, which is fair. Yes, they all do share some human aspects. But a lot of that has to do with as humans, we have the ability to recognize traits in others that are humane. However, something else all of these beings we witness between Elpis and Ultima Thule have in common are their extremely long lifespans, and that their respective civilizations were around for much longer than the time Etheirys has been sundured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
The game points out on several occasions the inability of our antagonists to see life as we do. It is the crucible where our conflict takes place. A fundamental block that is missing for them is indeed the short lifespans of the sundered. This serves to only confuse them, as you have pointed out with the quote from Eldibus. They just can't grasp it, when the answer is right in front of their face the whole time. In my opinion, despite their rationalization behind their actions, both Elidibus and Emet are fully aware that the genocide they desired to bring about is wrong. Their enthrallment with their God has them act in contrast to that, but the duties their seats hold in the convocation can be seen as reasons as well, just to lesser extent.
The ancient that comes to closest to having the same or similar concept of life we do is Hermes. I think if there is a comparison to make between ancient and man, he would be the best example to use. This is of course, prior to Meteion's report.
I'm not sure he decided to rest so much as we defeated him and his resolve to restore the unsundered. Ultimately, the ancients are devoted to the star and its survival. I would say Hades did finally accept his return to the star, and prior to doing so places his faith in us to defend Etheirys.Quote:
Emet-Selch himself only eventually decided to rest after 12k years, and only after he was satisfied the sundered remnants of his former friend were up to the task. Fandaniel even mocked both the sundered and unsundered for this attachment to life.
The ancient that had to endure this absolutely frightening fate was Venat. Armed with the knowledge of the final days, she could do nothing to stop it. Even if Meteion showed up and offered to spare Etheirys, Venat would've had to decline it. This is SOOOOO much worse than what I was talking about. My goodness! Poor, poor Venat :(Quote:
Agreed. And the ancients had an almost spiritual connection to the star, so to watch it die before their very eyes and beneath their feet, must've been traumatic in the extreme. Considering this would mean the cessation ultimately of even the cycle of life and death upon the star if taken to its conclusion. It was so badly damaged Zodiark had to restore it using many of them as fuel. Likewise, the dragons suffered watching their own star be despoiled, their ability to breed new life on their star taken from them, after enduring a senseless act of destruction that unravelled the raison d'etre of the very beings which administered it.
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02-12-2022, 11:53 PMLaurontBut it's not just their lifespans that are the issue for them - it's the fact that the sundered are the result of fracturing their star and people and creating out of that something unrecognisable to them - different to the extent that their lifespans are significantly reduced, the loss of the ability to use creation magicks, the echo reduced in what it could do, etc. It's clear some of them, like Emet-Selch, do feel some discomfort with the rejoinings (his perspective on the sundered is suggested to have shifted over time to seeing them as nearer to child-like beings), but it is ultimately genocide in answer to the genocide of their kind, to reverse it. While the game does point to their different perspectives on life at various points, it is emphatically not doing so with Elidibus in SoS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
At that juncture, the character is trying to demoralise him, and Elidibus is reaffirming his resolve, in spite of his memory loss - the entire point here is his commitment to his people and willingness to fight to see that through to the end. Moreover, the game goes to no small amount of lengths to parallel Elidibus's resolve to the Exarch's, i.e. here:
This is directly paralleling Elidibus's devotion to his duty and his people. So again, I would say that both from his and Emet-Selch's own resolve, we can very readily argue that the ancients did understand life in the sense of the importance of fighting to preserve it against a premature end. Indeed, the entire Ascian struggle is to undo that end. The reason I brought up the dragons is because they're most comparable to the ancients in their span of powers, lifespan and defiance against a fate that would see them destroyed - all of which they do in spite being very long-lived beings.Quote:
What will you say?
1) Why me? | 2) Did you never consider other paths?
1) Crystal Exarch
Why you? Why not you? Had I chosen another, we would never have made it this far. Or do I mistake your meaning...?
2) Crystal Exarch
I did─but I chose not to walk them, thank the gods. Why ever would you ask me such a thing?
Crystal Exarch
...Elidibus spoke in similar terms, you say? How curious.
To answer your question, then, I made my choice for reasons which seemed obvious to me, but may not to any other.
There were the expectations I placed upon myself before beginning my slumber. And the expectations of those who roused me.
Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all.
I cherish the time I spent with you and the others. What I wouldn't give to return to those halcyon days...
Chasing ancient secrets, overcoming trial after trial with the aid of like-minded comrades...
And what remarkable comrades they were. In such company, I felt as if I were a character in the epic tales that had stirred my heart as a boy. As if my dream had come true...
It hadn't, of course, for I was no hero. Neither then nor after. Though the world to which I awakened, and the First were beset with myriad problems, I rarely knew how best to play my part.
There was, however, one thing of which I was certain: that I could not bear to let those dear to me meet a tragic end.
I'm afraid our time is up. Go.
Rest assured you haven't seen the last of me. I wouldn't dream of playing my trump card save in your presence.
As for tempering? There's a number of problems with arguing that it directed their actions in service of their cause. First and foremost is that Zodiark's tempering is the result of the power that went into his summoning (see here for where this is implied.) The primal itself lacks the usual will primals do outside of its heart, and Emet-Selch himself is able to simply deviate from that path. Zodiark's return is in service of restoring the star and returning their people. All in all, there isn't enough for me to say it's what's the driving factor in their motivations.
Based on the lore we know, their tempering consists in alignment to the primal's aether, and yes, as per Emet, a desire to spread this aspect. It can evidently degrade memory and identity if those are not actively preserved (which Emet-Selch went to great lengths to do), but in both Emet-Selch's and Elidibus's case, they are strongly characterised as driven by their duty to their people, which Emet-Selch only forgoes because he lost (he even reaffirms this at the end), and likewise for Elidibus.
I am not bringing him up here because he is not relevant to the point of the acceptance of an "inevitable end", which was the point you raised in differentiating immortal races from those which are not. On that front? He in fact struggles to see purpose in life when faced with death as its eventual companion.Quote:
The ancient that comes to closest to having the same or similar concept of life we do is Hermes. I think if there is a comparison to make between ancient and man, he would be the best example to use. This is of course, prior to Meteion's report.
Different ways of saying the same thing. ;)Quote:
I'm not sure he decided to rest so much as we defeated him and his resolve to restore the unsundered. Ultimately, the ancients are devoted to the star and its survival. I would say Hades did finally accept his return to the star, and prior to doing so places his faith in us to defend Etheirys.
Poor poor ancients in general. The entire event was traumatic to the extent that it was seared into their memories such that even within the sundered, it can be reignited with the right trigger. Imagine then being the three survivors who didn't even have this context and then witness on top of this destruction, the fragmentation of their world and people, for reasons they were never given... it's tragic for all concerned.Quote:
The ancient that had to endure this absolutely frightening fate was Venat. Armed with the knowledge of the final days, she could do nothing to stop it. Even if Meteion showed up and offered to spare Etheirys, Venat would've had to decline it. This is SOOOOO much worse than what I was talking about. My goodness! Poor, poor Venat :(
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02-13-2022, 02:32 AMGeminaI am definitely not denying Emet's and Elidibus' devotion to their people, and their duties. The latter in particular mirror's that of our own resolve. Not just in FFXIV, but the hero's resolve that pushes the protagonists forward in every FF game, and perhaps story telling in general. What I am attempting to point out is if the antagonists could see life as we do, i.e. from our perspective, then it removes the catalyst to our conflict. The longer vs shorter lifespans is very significant for this to take place. Both species value life to the point that they will go to extreme means to defend it, but there is also a profound attachment to the worlds they know, and lifespans are very much a part of those perspectives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
What troubles me here is Emet's incredulousness. Forsaking his own brethren, and then going on to dishonor their memory by recreating Amaurot were totally and completely beyond anything he could ever imagine himself doing. Venat and Hytholadeus expressed similar disbelief, but not to the point that it directly contradicts their actions that take place in the future. There isn't anything concrete here, and it is all just speculation. 'Desperate times, desperate measures' certainly serves to explain the summoning of Zodiark, and subsequently Hydaelyn; but Emet's theatrics on the first is something else entirely.Quote:
As for tempering? There's a number of problems with arguing that it directed their actions in service of their cause. First and foremost is that Zodiark's tempering is the result of the power that went into his summoning (see here for where this is implied.) The primal itself lacks the usual will primals do outside of its heart, and Emet-Selch himself is able to simply deviate from that path. Zodiark's return is in service of restoring the star and returning their people. All in all, there isn't enough for me to say it's what's the driving factor in their motivations.
Based on the lore we know, their tempering consists in alignment to the primal's aether, and yes, as per Emet, a desire to spread this aspect. It can evidently degrade memory and identity if those are not actively preserved (which Emet-Selch went to great lengths to do), but in both Emet-Selch's and Elidibus's case, they are strongly characterised as driven by their duty to their people, which Emet-Selch only forgoes because he lost (he even reaffirms this at the end), and likewise for Elidibus.
Elidibus is a bit more difficult for me to surmise as we don't get to interact with him during our time in Elpis along with the other three. My impression of Elidibus remains that he is steadfast and completely unwavering in his duty to his seat, but as the heart of Zodiark he is also exempt. I think it would be extremely helpful if we could see or interact with him prior to becoming emissary.
I didn't bring up Hermes to make a point of acceptance/unacceptance to an inevitable end. I brought him up because he asks the same questions we do when it comes to life. "Is there other life out there among the stars?" "Is there a purpose to living?" "What gives us the right to determine what lives or dies?" I didn't want to go too far into it, but even as Amon and the walking/talking contradiction he ultimately becomes, he remains the ancient that relates the most to us because he is exceptionally flawed. He is closer to how we are, while Venat is who we strive to be.Quote:
I am not bringing him up here because he is not relevant to the point of the acceptance of an "inevitable end", which was the point you raised in differentiating immortal races from those which are not. On that front? He in fact struggles to see purpose in life when faced with death as its eventual companion.
Right here is a good reason why they can't relate to the sundered, who have come to know an entirely different way of living than the ancients. The unsundered are tragically left without a world to call home, and the sundered with the exception of Azem can never truly know the world their ancestors come from. I'm not dismissing the tragedy for everyone. I'm emphasizing that nothing could be done to avert said tragedy, even if armed to do so.Quote:
Poor poor ancients in general. The entire event was traumatic to the extent that it was seared into their memories such that even within the sundered, it can be reignited with the right trigger. Imagine then being the three survivors who didn't even have this context and then witness on top of this destruction, the fragmentation of their world and people, for reasons they were never given... it's tragic for all concerned.
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02-13-2022, 04:48 PM_Koneko_
pretty sure the reason the unsundered cannot relate to the sundered is their complete lack of empathy its why they all failed hermes's test by seeing the sundered as not even alive they failed the very criteria hermes put before emet to decide if the ancients was them self worthy of life
meteion was simply the method to which render judgement on the failed race that was the ancients erasing them from existence as they had done to so many other failed creations honestly endwalker had so much poetic justice for emet-selc sure hades may not have known he was being tested but every step of the way he was failing to prove the ancients worthy of existing
even at the very end he clung to his flawed convictions proving the ancients was unsavable
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...947698/her.png
not only does emet not respect all life his also pretty suicidal by the time we met him and by admission of past emet invite his own downfall -
02-13-2022, 08:20 PMKurokaHytholadeus himself said "it was so very like him" when we told him that, actually... it was his sentimental side winning over Hades' pride, it seems... While in the past they could not believe it at first, a later version of Hytholadeus that has witnessed the final days immediately believed it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Yet. We still dont know all of it, but he said he has memories of us in Elpis when sending us back there, teasing the raids, as we know now...Quote:
Elidibus is a bit more difficult for me to surmise as we don't get to interact with him during our time in Elpis along with the other three.
What I wonder is... when he was Zodiarks heart, was he actually alone? Or, like it was at first with Fandaniel, did he still have the voices of the others in there too? And further, is it actually like that for Venat too...?
For the despair of the Ea, i still wonder about the timing... their downfall might just be Meteon reaching em, amplifying their despair... -
02-13-2022, 10:25 PM_Koneko_i dunno if meteion was even needed knowing about the heat death of the universe when your immortal race and will very well live to see it is pretty terrible to a short living race like our own its more Meh because we'll be long dead by the time it happensQuote:
Originally Posted by Kuroka
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02-13-2022, 10:58 PMKuroka
Still i feel its stupid, its still millions, billions, whatever many many more years till then... even if you just watch and see what kind of life will grow in the meanwhile, its a lot more to see... worst case work on dimension travel, creating your own pocked dimension, literally anything...
I feel that its at least partially her fault for drowning the universe in despair, even IF there will be always ppl like Hermes who go all "life is pointless we better should all die!", many more should find stuff that makes life worth it to them.
Well but tbf i hate the whole moral of "life without suffering looses its joy"... -
02-14-2022, 09:11 AM_Koneko_
i think its more the concept that life without all the emotions are not worth living the price you pay is losing some of your humanity an utopian society is always appealing to people who never experienced such a life imagine living forever but not having any goals for such a long life span you'd be pretty much bored out of your mind heck most humans can't even handle living to like 100 now imagine being immortal across millions of years you'd pretty much run out of anything to do the ancients clearly demonstrate they are incapable of empathy with a few notable exceptions but they are an abnormality rather then the norm its implied the ancients was always heading to a dead end all meteion did was accelerate it heck you can see how incapable they are with dealing with loss and sorrow and anguish because in their flawed utopian society they didn't have those things for the most part when put to the test by hermes a test for the fitness of the ancients to be worthy of life they all failed