Petion to add a 7min invincibility to S Ranks upon their spawn.

Our server has a problem with a certain person that already has all the Hunt Achievements intentionally pulling early to impede other plays progress, that has been going on for months despite having been reported to GMs and such.

There's no such thing as an early pull and unless you have logs in the game chat of them saying they are doing it to grief players then it's not against the rules.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There's no such thing as an early pull and unless you have logs in the game chat of them saying they are doing it to grief players then it's not against the rules.

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I know who he's talking about, from when I was playing on Crystal -- and this guy is griefing. He admits to it in shout chat all the time, the GMs just don't care.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There's no such thing as an early pull and unless you have logs in the game chat of them saying they are doing it to grief players then it's not against the rules.

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Right, but that's the reason i'm requesting the buff to allow others to gather.

Idk, it’s a mob in the open world. Surely it’s polite to wait, but I don’t think trains should have the monopoly on kills.

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Originally Posted by Zoner

Right, but that's the reason i'm requesting the buff to allow others to gather.

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players dont have an obligation to wait for others?

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Originally Posted by Zoner

that has been going on for months

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some people (the griefer) need to consider going outdoors once in a while

but yeah sucks, nothing the GMs can do since you're not obligated to wait and pulling early isn't exactly an offense, just impolite

A few minutes grace period isn't unreasonable. For those actively spawning them, it can still take a short while to make it to the spawn site.
3 minutes at least would be fair, maybe 5.

I would prefer when A-ranks are balanced HP and DMG wise towards the 2nd raid Tier and S-Ranks to the 3rd and last one.
That would make it more punishing for solo early pullers and also a bit more exciting.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

damn some people need to consider going outdoors once in a while

but yeah sucks, nothing the GMs can do since you're not obligated to wait and pulling early isn't exactly an offense, just impolite

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I'm a spawner and I don't have an obligation to spend hours spawning an S rank for a guy and his friends that don't even need the kills to come kill an S rank because they like trolling everyday, all I want is to take any obligation or correctness outta the equation by adding a 7min invincibility to S ranks.

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Originally Posted by Zoner

I'm a spawner and I don't have an obligation to spend hours spawning an S rank for a guy and his friends that don't even need the kills to come kill an S rank because they like trolling everyday, all I want is to take any obligation or correctness outta the equation by adding a 7min invincibility to S ranks.

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oh no no to be clear, I'm saying the griefer needs to go outdoors, not you. I know who you're talking about as well lol.

but yeah I'd agree a timer would be nice, but currently since there's none we just kinda have to deal with it

They need to do something at this point because the hunting detecting apps/mods have proliferated to the point where you have literally hundreds of people arriving at a S rank within a minute of it spawning. If you're not using them directly or at least getting relays from these programs, your chances of getting to a hunt are slim. I've even missed hunts that spawned in a different instance of the same zone as me due to how absurd the queue congestion gets at prime time.

Sad thing is, the spawners requested the person who made the most prominent of said apps to add a grace period before it relays for the sake of making things more fair to them, but then the lazy people using said app accused us and the maker of "gatekeeping" as though it was their right to be getting to these hunts when we have no obligation to share them whatsoever, whilst they're not doing anything other then waiting by the aetherytes for relays to go out. Lamentably, they caved to pressure so now the people who are actively involving themselves in trying to spawn the S ranks are at the greatest risk of missing out, which is NOT how things should be.

It really just speaks for how utterly broken the system is right now. S rank have an extremely disproportionate effort to reward ratio as is, so I see absolutely no harm making them last longer and they can't realistically prevent people from using these third party programs so mitigating/removing the advantage they gain from getting to a hunt faster then everyone else is really the only option available. Having a five minute grace period before a hunt actually becomes attackable after spawning would be an easy solution to that.`

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Originally Posted by Zoner

Our server has a problem with a certain person that already has all the Hunt Achievements intentionally pulling early to impede other plays progress, that has been going on for months despite having been reported to GMs and such.

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I dont like players pulling early but i also dont want SE to grant hunts 7min invincibility.

Some advice!
Do not tell other ppl ingame to report said "prepuller" if those players really want to troll you they can easily report you for that and you will get a timeout from the game if you continue to do so.
GMs will not take actions against a "prepull", but for players spam reporting a person that is not breaking any rules... .. who knows

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Originally Posted by Nuki

I dont like players pulling early but i also dont want SE to grant hunts 7min invincibility.

Some advice!
Do not tell other ppl ingame to report said "prepuller" if those players really want to troll you they can easily report you for that and you will get a timeout from the game if you continue to do so.
GMs will not take actions against a "prepull", but for players spam reporting a person that is not breaking any rules... .. who knows

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I fail to see what the issue with adding a grace period for S ranks spawns is outside of general impatience.

The hunts are almost completely hands-off to the GMs though as our DC has routinely had to deal with people openly and repeatedly griefing either by immediately pulling the S ranks and directing their attacks into the mob of waiting players or just pulling the SS rank minions then despawning them. Neither behavior was ever punished despite dozens of people reporting the guilty parties.

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Originally Posted by Nuki

I dont like players pulling early but i also dont want SE to grant hunts 7min invincibility.

Some advice!
Do not tell other ppl ingame to report said "prepuller" if those players really want to troll you they can easily report you for that and you will get a timeout from the game if you continue to do so.
GMs will not take actions against a "prepull", but for players spam reporting a person that is not breaking any rules... .. who knows

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7mins might seem like a long time to a laymen but it usually takes about 2 min to travel and find its exact location, 2-3 mins for information to travel thro various linkshells, another 2mins of travel time for ppl to gather. For spawners it's 2nd nature to wait a long time before killing.

I'm also a spawner and would love if there was a grace period added to S ranks. Especially the EW SS ranks. People have started swarming the spawn points for the Ker, and it's not fair to the people who are fighting the minions far away. I've seen people who were killing minions barely make it to the Ker hunt because there are already 100 people at the spawn location. There are just way more people "participating" in hunting now. And I put participating in quotes because half of these people are just camping the aetherytes and don't even know how to spawn anything. The system needs a rework.

Or just make spawner get a buff to get the reward/kill count if he/she is still in the instance/map and the mobs is killed in less than 10 min or something like that? Its fair for the spawner

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Originally Posted by Zoner

Our server has a problem with a certain person that already has all the Hunt Achievements intentionally pulling early to impede other plays progress, that has been going on for months despite having been reported to GMs and such.

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I know exactly who you are referring to. They hop to my server all the time to mess with people. Yeah, there are no rules being broken, but they are still doing it to be a jerk just because they can which is not okay. They are not shy about it either in chat. I'd consider it griefing in their case, but it is what it is I suppose. I think 7 minutes would be far too long though. Maybe 2-3, if that, would be ideal. To me, that would be a reasonable wait time.

Cant enjoy hunts really cause I am on ps4 :( But got to say a few mins of invun and the hunt not aggroing would not hurt. Would still be able to pull soon as the invun drops.

7 minutes is crazy lol

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Originally Posted by Rokke

7 minutes is crazy lol

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It really isn't with how slow the crossworld/instance queues are.

I'd personally want five minutes minimum because right now even if I'm getting relays so little as maybe 20-30 seconds later then the app users I still get stuck behind queues that can take two to three minutes to go through at prime time, and then it takes still more time to get into the correct instance for the hunt and actually move to it.

One could argue it's not reasonable to expect to make to every hunt, but when the only reason that's happening is because of people resorting to methods that very much cross the line into cheating to get advance notice of hunts spawning it doesn't hold much weight.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It really isn't with how slow the crossworld/instance queues are.

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It really is though.

It's overworld content, it's not designed to be tackeled by literally everyone on the server + others from other servers.
People have asked about this before and every time it's the same result. Learn to accept the idea that you are toeing the line with how the developers actually want you to deal with the hunt marks.

If anything, people clogging up instances are a huge issue. Causing non-hunting normal players unable to get into places sometimes. I've missed some big fish due to hunt trains before.
And then there's the real griefing - people putting hunts away from their spawn location to reset their HP, nullifying the work others have put into it. GM's actually do punish for that, thankfully. It's just really annoying.

But time and time again there are folks that think that it's okay to pile literally every character into a zone and witch hunt those who dare pull when they are ready, but not before their grandma could make a new account to join in.

I think a timer is fair and reasonable

I think it's a good thing. He's bringing more awareness to how bad the hunt feature has been for years.

Never a worthy replacement for Notorious Monsters.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's overworld content, it's not designed to be tackeled by literally everyone on the server + others from other servers.
People have asked about this before and every time it's the same result. Learn to accept the idea that you are toeing the line with how the developers actually want you to deal with the hunt marks.

If anything, people clogging up instances are a huge issue. Causing non-hunting normal players unable to get into places sometimes. I've missed some big fish due to hunt trains before.
And then there's the real griefing - people putting hunts away from their spawn location to reset their HP, nullifying the work others have put into it. GM's actually do punish for that, thankfully. It's just really annoying.

But time and time again there are folks that think that it's okay to pile literally every character into a zone and witch hunt those who dare pull when they are ready, but not before their grandma could make a new account to join in.

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The logistics of 7 minutes becomes extra silly when one considers that instances are only really here for a patch or two too. What then happens once instances go away but the congestion of hunt trains stays? If a single zone is congested then for a min of 10 minutes (the proposed 7 + 3ish for the kill, assuming no one pulls it oob either by accident or on purpose) then no one can enter to do msq, no one can enter to do maps, no one can enter to grind fate gems, no one can enter to fish, no one can enter to gether, no one can enter to RP, no one can enter to unlock any side content, be it raids or sightseeing there.

What if the SS spawns? Are the adds immune for a time too? Is the SS another 7 minutes after that? Is it fair to non hunters that we'd potentially hold a zone hostage upwards of 20 minutes?

Really as simple as accepting you won't make it to every hunt. People need to realize that the tiger, the dinosaur and the dog aren't limited rewards.

If they want to reduce the congestion then the only real solution would be to prevent players from participating in hunts while not on their home server which I would honestly be completely okay with at this point.

Crossworld on its own wasn't that terrible, but it got worse when one of the most common botting programs incorporated a hunt detector into its basic functionality, then had a meltdown once a hunt detector went mainstream due to them releasing an app that's readily accessible via a certain popular mod/add-on platform that shall not be named.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Really as simple as accepting you won't make it to every hunt. People need to realize that the tiger, the dinosaur and the dog aren't limited rewards.

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No, it's not that simple when you're missing hunts because of excessive or unsolicited traffic generated by an app that's effectively cheating by datamining the game client to isolate hunt locations. Unless you think it's perfectly fair that on multiple occasions I've spawned a hunt in a sprawling zone like Coerthas Central Highlands, then had a bunch of offworlders swoop in and kill it before I could even locate it due to them getting pinged by a bot that was farming materials in the zone.

Hunting went from being something that could be handled leisurely by those who were actively spawning to a mad scramble due to the two mentioned factors as there's no longer any control over how knowledge of S rank spawns spread unless you're lucky enough to spawn something in a zone that has zero bots or app users in it.

Unfortunately since the hunt spawners account for only a tiny fraction of the community surrounding the activity, the majority will keep parroting that it's fine and sweeping the problems under the rug when almost nobody who's actively involved in it feels the same. I enjoy being able to cooperate with people across the data center to spawn hunts in a timely manner and attempt to allow others to participate in killing them, but the traffic has undeniably gotten to a point of being disruptive to the general playerbase and the devs may just have take drastic measures to avoid issues once the instances are gone.

Players have optimized hunting to a point where they're basically just worse world bosses from GW2. Stop pretending a system from ARR is fine as is 4 expansions later when almost every system from that era has changed in some fundamental way since then.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Players have optimized hunting to a point where they're basically just worse world bosses from GW2. Stop pretending a system from ARR is fine as is 4 expansions later when almost every system from that era has changed in some fundamental way since then.

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The funny thing is that it's arguably gotten worse due to the addition of the heavily flawed bonus S rank + minions which are a huge conduit for drama between intentional/accidental despawns of the minions or people camping the S rank's spawn point and killing it before the minion hunters can even get to it.

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Originally Posted by Zoner

7mins might seem like a long time to a laymen but it usually takes about 2 min to travel and find its exact location, 2-3 mins for information to travel thro various linkshells, another 2mins of travel time for ppl to gather. For spawners it's 2nd nature to wait a long time before killing.

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If you weren't a layman, you'd know how false most of that is. For the majority of spawns, we've got a good size crowd present within 3 minutes. And no, it's not second nature for spawners to wait a long time - it's second nature to wait a couple of minutes.

Do we appreciate his pulls when we've spent a fair amount of time spawning something for the community? No, but it's allowed within the rules of the game. SE designed the hunt to be "kill on sight", not "kill when entitled people who never lift a finger to help spawn finally finish their dungeon and decide to show up".

His pulls also wouldn't amount to much if most of those present didn't cave into their FOMO and go ham on the mark when he does pull. If people would get their hit in, then back off and focus on staying alive to mechanics, it would give more players time to arrive since the hunt wouldn't be dying as fast. That's worked for us many times - he'll pull and one of us will shout "get your hit in then back off so others can arrive for credit".

At the same time, we're not interested in waiting around 7 minutes for you to finish up your dungeon. We've already invested a lot of time in the spawn and have other things we want to be doing (sometimes that means working on the next spawn).

No, we don't need a 7 minute invulnerability window. What we need is for players to drop what they're doing and get there instead of expecting others to wait on them. We need for those present to use their brains when someone insta-pulls and not attack - nothing is going to die fast if only 2-3 people are attacking.

One thing I will say is that at least the player in question has helped with spawning on multiple occasions. I'm not aware of any occasions when I saw you doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Players have optimized hunting to a point where they're basically just worse world bosses from GW2. Stop pretending a system from ARR is fine as is 4 expansions later when almost every system from that era has changed in some fundamental way since then.

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Most of the problem is world population. Worlds have 3-4 times the population they had back in ARR while frequency of spawns hasn't increased. That causes the content to reach a smaller percentage of the player base.

Still, an invuln window is not the answer. I'd argue that removing tomestones (or at least the end game tomestones, poetics aren't a problem) would solve most of the issues. If hunts weren't such an easy source for end game currency, popularity would die quickly leaving the Hunt for those who actually enjoy the hunt part of it.

I see no harm in a 5-7 minute window. It basically changes nothing except for early pulling, and while that's well within the rules, it's anti-social and not like catering to that type of player (who is less than 1% of the hunt community) is important. I really couldn't care less if early pullers and griefers are upset over a 5 minute wait. It's no loss. They've been using "but the rules allow it!" as an excuse to enjoy seeing other people upset for years.

Hunts have evolved from the initial intended purpose. They're community coordinated now and the devs can either choose to remove or rework the entire system, or embrace what it's become and improve it. But pretending it's still a small scale activity for whoever was in the zone at the time is being delusional. Especially when you create multiple "kill 1000 S rank" achievements or SS ranks.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's overworld content, it's not designed to be tackeled by literally everyone on the server + others from other servers.
People have asked about this before and every time it's the same result. Learn to accept the idea that you are toeing the line with how the developers actually want you to deal with the hunt marks.

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This is always a bad look for developers to take. While they may have intended for hunts to be an activity for smaller groups of players, that simply isn't how the community has approached them for over half a decade now. Attempting to force it is not too dissimilar to what happened way back in Pagos. That mess forced them to backpedal hard because people outright refused to even touch the content. Unfortunately, hunts are too easy for such a protest to actually work but it still shows why strong arming your playerbase isn't a good look.

At this point, it isn't simply early pullers. People are using scripts, bots and other third party tools. Any argument for developer intent went out the window once that started to happen. Even the hunt Discords ruin it as their intended way is simply impossible nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

IStill, an invuln window is not the answer. I'd argue that removing tomestones (or at least the end game tomestones, poetics aren't a problem) would solve most of the issues. If hunts weren't such an easy source for end game currency, popularity would die quickly leaving the Hunt for those who actually enjoy the hunt part of it.

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I disagree. A 5-7 minute invuln window would impact virtually nobody except the people actively trying to be a nuisance. More often than not, people spawning S ranks prefer to wait so others have a chance to make it. Considering they put in the actual effort to spawn the thing, why should someone else—potentially from another world entirely—be allowed to swoop in?

Taking away tomes not only wouldn't be the answer but completely devastate hunts without accomplishing the intended goal. Now they're a niche activity almost nobody cares about, making it harder to even kill them. A ranks would be akin to FATEs: mostly dead content.

If no one jumps in on the fight he'll be stuck fighting it by himself and dying.

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Originally Posted by Juun

If no one jumps in on the fight he'll be stuck fighting it by himself and dying.

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while that would be an obvious solution that would require no outside intervention from GMs or YoshiP, in practice there is clearly some psychological mechanic that prevents the 'innocent bystanders' from letting the griefer get murdered by the hunt as punishment for griefing. Like some collective fomo kicks in or something that turns people's brains off.

To me, this feels a bit like the invader discussion in the Dark Souls franchise: just because the game allows you to do it, does that mean that you should? But on the defence of that franchise, they actually allow you to defend from invaders by putting limitations on how the invasion mechanic works. There is no such thing with hunts. Its a truly wild west FFA thing that evolved beyond its intended scope, and even more so because they attached very specific rewards to it which gives a larger audience incentive to do them. Probably just an oversight unless we want to speculate that there is some social experiment going on :rofl:

I just want an ingame hunt tracker.
The fact the 30+ players can gather Dwarven cotton bolls on Gilgamesh only to realize that the Kholusia S rank was stealth killed is just a cruel oversight.

Either add an invincibility timer or make it attackable once the spawner hits it. I find it ridiculous that a spawner can miss out on the hunt they put in effort to make available.

Rare spawns only worked in MMOs because servers only housed tens of thousands of people which lead to actual communities which lead to people able to blacklist others that were jerks like this (Early pulling rare spawns, ninja looting, mpking, ect.) Now we live in the world of instances and shards within servers full of millions of people. Once personal accountably was gone then everything that depended on it also suffered, world bosses included. At this point A and S rank mobs should be force spawned by trading an item or something. The ZNM system in XI was an amazing idea and I wish XIV would copy that system. You still give the farmers a reason to farm by looking for that rare item that lets you spawn the A or S rank. I wish we could go back to that time where we can do an APB and half of the server flies in but that time is lost and we need better options. The invincibility window seems more like a band-aid solution, I don't know.

A lot of valid points !
I would like to make a suggestion,
I do not hunt so I would love any feedback!
What if, instead of having the higher rank spawns be on such a long cooldown or a pain to spawn, we reduce the cooldown and spawn practice to be more akin to Eureka where one can prep a spawn and then prep it again after.. lets say an hour of downtime from it? or some form of things like that! Just an idea!

How is it griefing when its a first come/serve?

You dont own S ranks, nobody owns S ranks and nobody's getting other players killed over it, so not actionable.

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Originally Posted by Juun

If no one jumps in on the fight he'll be stuck fighting it by himself and dying.

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laughs in warrior