Job Design in PvP

Greetings,

I'd like to talk here about how Jobs are currently designed in PvP. While the treatment of Statistics being synced to a specific point in itself is pretty good, I think all of the Jobs are currently designed in a way, where competition among each other isnt possible in a way which is enjoyable which eliminates the core of basic PvP, which is 1vs1 Combat.

To further elaborate on this, i'd like to show a specific Video (from Josh Strife Hayes - Why PVP in MMOs is so hard to balance - Balance vs Skill, for those who dont want to click on the Link out of any suspicions) i found which made some interesting statements about PvP in MMO's in general and how we can project those into FFXIV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ


In the current way of things, Jobs are severely unbalanced to the point, actual competition isnt truly possible except in large scaler combat (where it is always "possible" anyway). Even the Feast, as much as many People loathe it (outside of Reward reasons), COULD have been more fun than it used to be if it were designed properly, instead of leaving it to rot for several Years and now simply being removed because thats just the easy way out for the Dev's.

Not gonna make it a secret - jobs in pvp can absolutely all be played and are actually more fine-tuned with 4v4 Feast in mind, which is played with MUCH higher frequency in JP datacenters according to hearsay at least (like you can literally just queue there and play training mode to enjoy some casual feast), but I'd be lying if certain jobs simply feel a lot stronger or are more dominantly picked over other peers in their role, such as White Mage among healers or Black Mage among casters.

However, 1v1s simply do not represent PvP in any way in FFXIV, nor with the current system of 4v4 Feast should they have been in any capacity, since Feast is essentially a holy "trinity" PvP, where each role is balanced to represent what their role is supposed to do - tanks mitigate and interrupt, healers heal and apply buffs / debuffs, DPS bring the main bulk of the harm and keep the pressure going.

But with the new 5v5 Crystal Conflict gamemode on the horizon which will eliminate role restrictions, we can see a shift to more individualised kits, which if I remember correctly they have said to give the individual more tools and thus responsibility for their own survival - this could come in many forms, but most likely more self-heals or lifesteals, along with more liberal addition of mitigation and crowd control across the board. This is done to work around no longer enforcing Healers in matches, thus reducing queue times to a larger degree.

To deal with the opposite end of the spectrum, MULTIPLE healers per team - they might probably shift a good bit of sustain / healing power away from healers and trade it for more damage output, nastier debuffs, bigger CCs - essentially turning them into supportive Casters so even a team with WHM SCH AST SGE can still kill but also can still BE killed.

With a shift in sustain moving from a role closer to the individual and a shift in damage capabilities to be raised across the board with more significant increases on Healer jobs it could very well herald the end of "these 4-8 jobs are unkillable in a 1v1" complaints being tossed around, as negligible they are to me at least.

Also along with 6.1 Job changes to accommodate roleless queue in Crystal Conflict, apparently Adrenaline Rush (PvP Limit Break) will go from per-role to per-job, which might mean individuaiised Adrenaline Rushes with different effects.

The interesting take on Tanks being Tanks and Healers being Healers, is that theyre by nature, unbalanced, so in order to counterbalance healing, it would require healing (or tanking in a tank's case) to be punished in one form or another, (like other Jobs having Skills that reduce armor/healing rate or simply having a passive on the users side that punishes spamming) otherwise those two Roles will always tower over anyone else, simply by not being killable.

If that isnt being considered, then even Crystal Conflict wont be much of a saving grace for PvP in this game. There is always going to be a chance for one Team having more Healers or Tanks than others (if we consider the Matchmaker rules they have announced), and unless you can knockback enemies into those Bomb traps (which hopefully are always spell instant death), it will be quite the chore to get even one killed.

All i hope and wish from PvP, is to be able to play my favorite Job and have a decent chance to fight any other Job without being completely deleted by Melee DPS or walled of by insane defenses/heals by Healers and Tanks. It doesnt need to be on perfectly equal footing, but at least be in the realm of possibility.

If you want it 100% fair and competitive (no matter if 4v4 or 1v1), you have to eliminate the entire job system in PvP and make just one PvP job. Everyone got the same toolkit, same stats, etc. Maybe add some buyable items to increase the effectiveness of certain skills (like increased selfheal, longer sprint, etc).

It must be a nightmare to balance all jobs in PvP. And at some point specific jobs are more powerfull than others. But to be honest, PvP feels more balanced than in previous expansions (due to having more selfheal and sprint).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlyn

If you want it 100% fair and competitive (no matter if 4v4 or 1v1), you have to eliminate the entire job system in PvP and make just one PvP job. Everyone got the same toolkit, same stats, etc. Maybe add some buyable items to increase the effectiveness of certain skills (like increased selfheal, longer sprint, etc).

It must be a nightmare to balance all jobs in PvP. And at some point specific jobs are more powerfull than others. But to be honest, PvP feels more balanced than in previous expansions (due to having more selfheal and sprint).

---

Jobs dont need to be eliminated per se. All it would require, is that they have a "foundation" of Skills and Statistics which they have in common, and any benefit one gets, must be counterbalanced in one way or another.

League of Legends/Dota2 would be a good and simple example on that. When you start playing, everyone starts off in the same state and amount of Abilities. you have near similar statistics with each other and Items compensate for each intended Playstyle, as well as the design of your Abilities do. As far as i am aware of the state of the Game, there is in a technical sense, always a solution to any kind of problem, be it a Tank with too much Armor and so on.

Since FFXIV doesnt have that luxury with Items providing any Bonus (unless they inpliment PvP Armor and Weapons that grant not just stats, but also Abilities just for that purpose), all they can do is balance it arround Skills and the Enviroment theyre being used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlyn

If you want it 100% fair and competitive (no matter if 4v4 or 1v1), you have to eliminate the entire job system in PvP and make just one PvP job. Everyone got the same toolkit, same stats, etc. Maybe add some buyable items to increase the effectiveness of certain skills (like increased selfheal, longer sprint, etc).

It must be a nightmare to balance all jobs in PvP. And at some point specific jobs are more powerfull than others. But to be honest, PvP feels more balanced than in previous expansions (due to having more selfheal and sprint).

---

This is most likely what is actually going to happen in the new PVP mode since they are making the new mode "roleless", and stating that you cannot have more than two of the same job on the same team. What I assume will happen based off the information from the last Live Letter is there will be no more tanks, healers, or DPS, everyone will be just a form of dps with some job uniqueness sprinkled in. This is both good and bad in the way that you used to balance jobs within their role, but now will have to balance each job with each other which is a much larger pool. You have to design it so that the team with three healers and two tanks has an equal chance of winning/losing against a team of all dps.

They also mentioned something about giving each Job a unique way of regenerating Health as well, if i recall correctly, something i hope which wont ruin everything.

Honestly it might be a bit too soon to lose our heads over it, whether we love or hate the spoken direction this is supposed to be heading. We have too little data about what SE has been planning internally and I think it is also alright to not expect a perfect start on balance. What I will absolutely won't go back on is that roleless queue WILL be better than rolebased queue, by sheer ease of forming matches and working long-term around that concept will make PvP easier to get into, both responsibility-wise and queue wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anhra

Greetings,

I'd like to talk here about how Jobs are currently designed in PvP. While the treatment of Statistics being synced to a specific point in itself is pretty good, I think all of the Jobs are currently designed in a way, where competition among each other isnt possible in a way which is enjoyable which eliminates the core of basic PvP, which is 1vs1 Combat.

To further elaborate on this, i'd like to show a specific Video (from Josh Strife Hayes - Why PVP in MMOs is so hard to balance - Balance vs Skill, for those who dont want to click on the Link out of any suspicions) i found which made some interesting statements about PvP in MMO's in general and how we can project those into FFXIV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

In the current way of things, Jobs are severely unbalanced to the point, actual competition isnt truly possible except in large scaler combat (where it is always "possible" anyway). Even the Feast, as much as many People loathe it (outside of Reward reasons), COULD have been more fun than it used to be if it were designed properly, instead of leaving it to rot for several Years and now simply being removed because thats just the easy way out for the Dev's.

---

MMORPG will never balance at 1 v 1, that is just the fact.
FF14 tried a lot different thing after Wolf's Den failure and settle on balance for team battle.
Range will never be able to kill meele at same skill level on Forntline only because meele has a 20% output DMG increase and 50% intake DMG reduction (that is how powerful FF14 Range Job) after 4.5
Between 3.0 to 4.5, there are only Ranges and Warrior (not even DRK or PLD can do well) on Frontline.
Machinest used to have a burst CD to kill someone in 3 GCDs; therefore, by the patch 4.2 to 4.5, there are pretty much only Machinests, healer, and warrior.
It is not ideal balance.

You want 1 v 1?
Wolf Den duel area do not have any buff apply and that is probably something you want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

MMORPG will never balance at 1 v 1, that is just the fact.
FF14 tried a lot different thing after Wolf's Den failure and settle on balance for team battle.
Range will never be able to kill meele at same skill level on Forntline only because meele has a 20% output DMG increase and 50% intake DMG reduction (that is how powerful FF14 Range Job) after 4.5
Between 3.0 to 4.5, there are only Ranges and Warrior (not even DRK or PLD can do well) on Frontline.
Machinest used to have a burst CD to kill someone in 3 GCDs; therefore, by the patch 4.2 to 4.5, there are pretty much only Machinests, healer, and warrior.
It is not ideal balance.

You want 1 v 1?
Wolf Den duel area do not have any buff apply and that is probably something you want

---

It is also fact that the opposite is true.

Some MMOs did balance their PvP arround 1vs1 Combat, as well as small and even extremely large sized PvP Content in mind and successfully managed to pull it off ( Rappelz Online had, for example, during its Prime in Epic 3 - 5 active Guild Alliance vs Guild Alliance Battles which could be arround 200 People fighting for a Dungeon, as well as properly working Duels.). I am not saying here that FFXIV should copy this, this is just a point of reference.

Melee and Ranged Dps Classes can have a fair Matchup if they are designed properly.

Saying just "it has always been like that so it should stay that way" only shows how little you care about PvP. And guess what? Current PvP System is a failure. There is only a fraction within a fraction that still plays this atrocity of a Gamemode for the sake of PvP, not for any EXP reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anhra

Some MMOs did balance their PvP arround 1vs1 Combat, as well as small and even extremely large sized PvP Content in mind and successfully managed to pull it off ( Rappelz Online had, for example, during its Prime in Epic 3 - 5 active Guild Alliance vs Guild Alliance Battles which could be arround 200 People fighting for a Dungeon, as well as properly working Duels.). I am not saying here that FFXIV should copy this, this is just a point of reference.

---

Which MMO you are referring to?
Please don't tell me it is TERA Online because that is more like Action MMORPG instead of traditional tag-target.
It is like you are comparing Macross Universe to Gundam Universe, yes, they both are mecha anime but fundamentally different.

Dragoons and warriors just seem dominant in Roulette frontlines especially in the huge team battles with objectives. They can just charge in without a fear in the world and retreat. They also do ridiculous damage. Please heavily nerf melee in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zachia

Dragoons and warriors just seem dominant in Roulette frontlines especially in the huge team battles with objectives. They can just charge in without a fear in the world and retreat. They also do ridiculous damage. Please heavily nerf melee in this game.

---

While it's true that DRG and WAR are strong in Frontlines, I think you are misunderstanding WHY they are strong. DRG's(NIN's as well) are purely strong because they are a melee with a lot of ranged AoE abilities that enable them to get Battle High faster than other melees. Due to this though, the last FL update nerfed the damage from all melee in general, while also specifically nerfing the mitigation on DRG and NIN that they receive from Battle High. So for jobs like DRG and NIN it's a tradeoff, you can more easily get Battle High by AoE spamming, but you aren't as tanky as a MNK or SAM and do slightly less damage when Battle High. In the case of DRG, they have three abilities that force them to jump into an enemy team. One good CC or chain of CC's and they are dead.

WARs are strong in FL, but ironically weak when it comes to Feast. Their kit just has more value with more teammates with a draw in and bind, vuln up, and the healing from Nascent + Retaliation. However, their strength comes from players not paying attention to be honest. People who stand out of place and get Holmgang'd often should not have been there to begin with(not to mention it's completely survivable), or people who waist CC on a WAR that has Inner Release running, or people that slam into Nascent + Retaliation that's actively keeping them alive. Again it just comes down to awareness. CC a WAR outside of Inner Release and they are usually dead as most use Holmgang aggressively and often do not have it up to be used defensively. When you see a WAR with the Nascent + Retaliation combo, you can either ignore it till it wears off, or burst through. It's healing, not mitigation, so it can(and does often) be straight burned through.

The TL;DR is that DRG and WAR are strong because people are not exploiting their weaknesses, like most jobs. They are easier to get value, but you can be just as much of a threat on almost any job provided you play smartly and you have a team to back you up. Let me put it this way, I had a match the other day where mine and the other team was getting absolutely obliterated by a group of ASTs all self buffing and hitting Gravity at the same time completely wiping groups left and right. Was pretty funny, but remember this was on AST. I personally can sometimes get top damage on GNB, or my friends I queue with getting top damage on BRD. So while the game could always be balanced better, most of it comes down to being aware, playing to your job/teams strengths, and exploiting enemy job/team weaknesses.

I am a little curious about how they're going to balance the different limit breaks; mostly whether or not the speed at which gauge charges is going to vary between classes based on how effective their LB is.

BLM's charges very quickly but I couldn't tell what it was doing other then building stacks of a buff and allowing for instant casts are long as said buff persisted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I am a little curious about how they're going to balance the different limit breaks; mostly whether or not the speed at which gauge charges is going to vary between classes based on how effective their LB is.

BLM's charges very quickly but I couldn't tell what it was doing other then building stacks of a buff and allowing for instant casts are long as said buff persisted.

---

Hard to know for sure. For the most part, the LBs we saw were either:
Hard, one-shotting, nuke like SAM, RPR, NIN maybe, and DRG maybe.
AoE with CC and damage like WHM, RDM, and DNC?
AoE with debuffs like DRK and PLD.
BLM had 6 free stacks of Flare and Freeze that are AoE that also applied the Fire and Ice debuffs that can be detonated by the large flashy BLM circle that appear to put a burn DoT for fire stacks and maybe Freeze CC for detonated Ice stacks.

Perhaps BLM can charge faster because it's not as immediate and impact compared to the others. That's also assuming LB charge rates are different per job like Ultimate's in Overwatch, and aren't flat across the board.

Please reduce the RDM shift visual spin. It's way too fast and gives me motion sickness. I had to turn down my graphic settings just to try out RDM in pvp.