A potential reading of The Dead Ends' story.

The upshot of the Expert Roulette constantly giving me the same dungeon is that over time I start to read that dungeon's story more and more. And today, it finally clocked over that the Dead Ends may have a more full allegorical reading than what we've previously only picked up on about its third part.

Basically, while we can directly read the three parts of the Dead Ends as three different stories of the ends of worlds (which, well, they literally are), I think it's probably also intended that we be able to read them as mirrors to parts of the Ancients' story.

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Originally Posted by Pestilent Sands

Meteion: Once upon a time, there was a beautiful blue star...
Meteion: ...that fell to pestilence, and rotted inside and out.
Meteion: The more its people clung to life, the more they suffered.
Meteion: Until they cursed not the illness, but their fellow corrupted.
Meteion: Those who lived and festered, those who died and decayed...

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The first world is the analog of the Ancients in the time after Zodiark's summoning, through to after the second sacrifice and leading into the third. While the Pestilent Sands faced plague rather than the more destructive forces the Ancients faced, both planets still struggled with the complex emotions of it all, lashing out at people who were also victims and ultimately making the wrong decisions. For an extra punch, the Caustic Grebulon suffered from the exact same thing that led the Ancients down the dark path of the third summoning and onward: crippling loneliness.

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Originally Posted by Judgement Day

Meteion: In a faraway place, a brilliant star eradicated disease...
Global Citizen: It means to kill us all!
Meteion: ...before destroying the selfsame lives it had saved.
Global Citizen: I have to end this!
Global Citizen: If I can reach the terminal...
Meteion: Its people sought ever greater freedoms no matter the cost...
Meteion: They tried to buy peace with fire and steel...

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The second world is the analog of what I would call 'the Ascian Era'; not just the days of the Ascians themselves in the sundered world, but more importantly, the time leading up to the sundering itself, with the third summoning. The period where the Convocation turned to using violence and murder to get back the world they wanted, even if it meant that every single one of their people died.

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Originally Posted by The Plenty

Meteion: Farther still existed a star without strife...
Meteion: ...where none remembered life's trials─or its joys.
Meteion: What its people had gained from ease, they lost to apathy.
Meteion: So they created the kindest, most gentle of beasts.

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And the one most everyone could see, so I'm not exactly giving new information here, the eventual end result of the Ancients' sacrificing to Zodiark, especially after the Sundering. Striving for perfection and a world without suffering, but tearing the planet apart to do so, and no longer having the perspective to appreciate it (if they ever had it). A hollow victory, on a global scale.

It just struck me as an interesting reading, as well as a way that the Ancients' end may have been fleshed out without necessarily having to be there for it. We didn't see the entirety of the roads they embarked down--but we don't need to, because we saw their Dead Ends.

That is a really deep analysis. Ishikawa loves connecting all her themes together, so I'd say it's probably intentional on some level. Even if it isn't, Death of the Author definitely applies whenever Final Fantasy starts waxing philosophical.

I think there's also a nod to the Allagans in the third stage. It's aesthetically different, but the people there the same attitude towards life as people in the twilight period of the Allagan Empire, the very decline that Amon sought to reverse by resurrecting Xande. More ominously, G'raha, once charged with restoring hope to the world by the light of the Crystal Tower, a tower Doga and Unei once implicated as a major factor in the decline, can't quite get his head around it if you take him through as a Trust. Probably not foreshadowing anything at this point, but it makes you think.

Personally, I saw the plague as analogous to the First and Sin Eaters, the Peacekeepers analogous to Allag or Garlemald after they released Black Rose in the bad future, and the final section as what would've befallen Amaurot without Venat's intervention.

The namazu noises at the beginning are all I can think about in that dungeon (the namazu being a parable for the ancients as well). I am glad to read other ideas. I saw the second zone as Allag but that seemed too obvious.

Meteion's report in Elpis and her challenges to the scions are on the interpersonal level. But I like this idea of her illustrating time periods in between the calamities a lot better. And maybe in some sense they are like our calamities but with a different scope. This sounds very obvious to write out but hopefully it makes sense. The story is a rich fabric woven into different sized patterns that echo the basic twisting of thread on a tiny scale. Not unlike how a big honkin' crystal of a mineral retains properties of its molecular form. Interpretations like this are always a pleasure to read.

Ehh, I don't really see those interpretations at all. I mean, a lot of people have jumped onto the Ra-La civilizations = Ancient Etheirysians' end over the past month, so that one I've seen a half dozen times by now.

I took the Dead Ends to be where FFXIV waxed philosophical about what the authors are seeing in real life as possible dead ends for our own planet (Save the third area).

The first section is about the social reaction to the COVID19 Pandemic.

The second section is about theorized nuclear holocaust.

The last section is definitely meant to be taken on face value as being an analogue for the Ancients. But with a thorough analysis of it, you realize it's merely the civilization that tainted the Meteion hivemind the most. It is a parallel to what she believes she is doing for Etheirys. She is our Ra La. It's not a dead end for the Ancients relating to Zodiark sacrifices. There's no Zodiark sacrifice parallel in it whatsoever. And the Ancient Etheirysians were far from apathetic. It was their extreme affinity for joy, love, togetherness, and peace that caused the Final Days to be such a dramatic wound for them. You should also take notice that it wasn't the Ra-La people who decided when they died, it was Ra La.

Etheirysians already existed in a cycle where when they tired of life they could choose to physically die and be reborn to experience all of life anew.

So, everyone did the side quest with Ea where you read the epitaph about the dead end?

This is where this terminology stems from. A "dead end" is end of a civilization, it's a marker like an epitaph or a tomb. Now we've been presented 6 ends, not 3, because you have to count the dragons, Ea, and machines too.

Each of these 6 have been pushed to their final days by Meteon. As she continues to destroy worldsm she continues the cycle of self-justification. The methodology employed in causing the end organically feels like it was that civilization's fault, but really it was a manipulation of dynamis causing their own fears to destroy them. Meteon has pre-judged them.

When we are confronted in the Dead End dungeon, Meteon is just showing us why she is justified in doing what she is doing. The irony is "if" each one would have reached that conclusion without her is up for debate. We are literally there to fight her to show her the other side of the argument, which, regardless if we reach a natural conclusion, was worth the journey. The journey of a civilization is just like the journey of an adventurer; in the end it's a complex simile.

I think the metaphor, if one is found here, is for own lives/world and things we can see potentially destroying our civilizations. Will we or will we not destroy our world? Is the journey of life worth it, even if we reach the dead end in the future?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Each of these 6 have been pushed to their final days by Meteon.

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This whole thing is more discussing allegorical parallels than in-universe fact, but I do want to point out that factually speaking this is wrong. Only two of them were ended 'by Meteion'--Judgement Day and The Plenty both mention her in notes as a major catalyst (although I'd say that Judgement Day was waiting for a trigger and would've eventually happened anyway). Of the others, we know that the dragons and the Pestilent Sands had other reasons for their demise and were on the way down anyway, the Ea and the Omicron had entirely internally consistent reasons for their demise, and the Nekropolis was already gone when she got there.

Your conclusion might not necessarily be wrong, but your working out has some problems.

not the dead ends but the omikrons are a pretty interesting parallel to garleans. they started out as a weak civilization that was constantly victimized by others, and ended up becoming a massively destructive and powerful race that only lived to conquer others by the end

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

This whole thing is more discussing allegorical parallels than in-universe fact, but I do want to point out that factually speaking this is wrong. Only two of them were ended 'by Meteion'--Judgement Day and The Plenty both mention her in notes as a major catalyst (although I'd say that Judgement Day was waiting for a trigger and would've eventually happened anyway). Of the others, we know that the dragons and the Pestilent Sands had other reasons for their demise and were on the way down anyway, the Ea and the Omicron had entirely internally consistent reasons for their demise, and the Nekropolis was already gone when she got there.

Your conclusion might not necessarily be wrong, but your working out has some problems.

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My guy, I was agreeing with you, and expanding and clarifying your original post. The Ea coin the phrase "dead end" and you are excluding them from this analysis. I'm sorry you took this as an attack.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

My guy, I was agreeing with you, and expanding and clarifying your original post. The Ea coin the phrase "dead end" and you are excluding them from this analysis. I'm sorry you took this as an attack.

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Oh, not taking it as an attack or anything! Just being a massive nerd making massive nerd factual corrections.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ehh, I don't really see those interpretations at all. I mean, a lot of people have jumped onto the Ra-La civilizations = Ancient Etheirysians' end over the past month, so that one I've seen a half dozen times by now.

I took the Dead Ends to be where FFXIV waxed philosophical about what the authors are seeing in real life as possible dead ends for our own planet (Save the third area).

The first section is about the social reaction to the COVID19 Pandemic.

The second section is about theorized nuclear holocaust.

The last section is definitely meant to be taken on face value as being an analogue for the Ancients. But with a thorough analysis of it, you realize it's merely the civilization that tainted the Meteion hivemind the most. It is a parallel to what she believes she is doing for Etheirys. She is our Ra La. It's not a dead end for the Ancients relating to Zodiark sacrifices. There's no Zodiark sacrifice parallel in it whatsoever. And the Ancient Etheirysians were far from apathetic. It was their extreme affinity for joy, love, togetherness, and peace that caused the Final Days to be such a dramatic wound for them. You should also take notice that it wasn't the Ra-La people who decided when they died, it was Ra La.

Etheirysians already existed in a cycle where when they tired of life they could choose to physically die and be reborn to experience all of life anew.

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The third area could also be seen as a possible end for us. What happens after we achieve a perfectly unified and utopian society? Things could go Star Trek, or they could go the other way. We already got voluntary euthanization going on for those afflicted by uncurable aliments, and it's not that much of an additional step to suicide booths.

But irl aside, I believe all the worlds have some relation to Etheirys.

The first world is a representation of overexploitation of resources, both in the present and the past. The Second Umbral Calamity was caused by overexploitation of resources, which forced the people of the world underground where they succumbed to plague. The second world is a representation of Allag and Garlemald's obsession with conquest and control through technology to which the Fourth Umbral Calamity, destruction of the realm by science, could be associated with this destruction as well. I wonder as we go through the Last Dregs quest line, we'll see more mirrors of Hydaelyn/Etheirys's calamities in other worlds.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Etheirysians already existed in a cycle where when they tired of life they could choose to physically die and be reborn to experience all of life anew.

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That, or claim to achieve godhood and immortality by fusing with dangerous creations.

The stuff happening in Pandemonium is kind of contradictory to the idea of the beings of Etheirys being content with their lives.

Looks like my old post got delet. Curious as to why.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

That, or claim to achieve godhood and immortality by fusing with dangerous creations.

The stuff happening in Pandemonium is kind of contradictory to the idea of the beings of Etheirys being content with their lives.

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Maybe; it's implied someone or something was manipulating Hesperos' darker personality traits and forcibly fused him with whatever it was that turned him into a hemitheos.

That said, Erichthonios' emotional pain and the fact Themis (Elidibus) says if the Convocation knew the state of Pandaemonium they'd cut it off from the rest of the world shows that the Ancients weren't quite as perfect as Emet-Selch portrayed them as being. (Viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses is a pretty common failing of the Ancients, though.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(Viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses is a pretty common failing of the Ancients, though.)

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It isn't just the ancients in the story though, I get the feeling that the game has been pushing the idea of fighting for the past as being a failing of a group for a long while.

Take for example the Limsan pirates who refuse to move on from piracy and how that has bogged down Limsa's move towards a trading empire, how past grudges on both sides have repeatedly broken the fragile truces between the beast tribes and the Eorzean city states, the long and deeply held hatred on both sides of the Dragonsong war that almost saw the post Heavensward peace broken, the civil unrest in Doma caused by Hien's decision to move past Yotsuyu's brutal rein, the Syndicate's grip on their long held power in the face of Nanamo's attempt at reform leading in part to the Ul'dah revolution, the xenophobia faced by outsiders to Gridania during ARR when the city state was trying to be less isolationist and the Garlean's experiences with racism tainting the view of the world into something equally as racist as what they themselves faced just to name a few.

The conflict that arises from people being unable to accept that the world around them is changing and that they also need to change has been, as far as I can see, a driving factor of the setting since at least ARR and presumably back to 1.0 as well. The ascian/ancient nostalgia goggles are just the most future deciding and influential of said series of conflicts.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

The conflict that arises from people being unable to accept that the world around them is changing and that they also need to change has been, as far as I can see, a driving factor of the setting since at least ARR and presumably back to 1.0 as well. The ascian/ancient nostalgia goggles are just the most future deciding and influential of said series of conflicts.

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At the same time, I also love that FFXIV has the consistent message that while we must move on from the past, we must also remember the past, and not try to forget it. Which is spelled out explicitly again in the EW role quests as you mentioned; just about every one of them deals with moving on from the trauma of past events, but also to face that trauma and accept it for what it is.

There's never a call to forgive and forget. Never forget, and forgiveness is personal and optional, but everyone still needs to move on, while keeping in mind the lessons of the past.

Bringing it back to the thread, the dead civilizations encountered by Meteion seem to have been particularly brittle, possibly due to Meteion's influence, but brittle nonetheless. They couldn't draw on past experiences with their own suffering and sorrow to go "yes, we know, we already went through that, and we learned from it". The Ancient Amaurotines seem to have the same weakness: they don't appear to be well-versed in their own history, and are suspiciously incurious about how their own civilization got to where they are, and what lessons can be learned from the past to be applied to the future.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

They couldn't draw on past experiences with their own suffering and sorrow to go "yes, we know, we already went through that, and we learned from it".

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A fun thing that not everyone finds (including myself) in the quest where you go book-hunting in the Noumenon, there's a book that mentions the concept of the heat death of the universe. The reason Y'shtola and Urianger can grapple so readily with the Ea's anxiety is because Sharlayan did exactly that: they've already grappled with that crisis.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

A fun thing that not everyone finds (including myself) in the quest where you go book-hunting in the Noumenon, there's a book that mentions the concept of the heat death of the universe. The reason Y'shtola and Urianger can grapple so readily with the Ea's anxiety is because Sharlayan did exactly that: they've already grappled with that crisis.

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I think it's really interesting that the people of Etherys are the only ones consistently shown to be able to cope with the existential despair inherent in the universe while simultaneously being the only known place in the universe that's literally incomplete and imperfect by design.

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Originally Posted by andrealfus

not the dead ends but the omikrons are a pretty interesting parallel to garleans. they started out as a weak civilization that was constantly victimized by others, and ended up becoming a massively destructive and powerful race that only lived to conquer others by the end

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There is more than parallel. Omicron Omega was significant source of technology for Allagans who in turn where source for Garleans. Significant amount of "culture" can be transferred via taking on tools and therefore "problems" those tools are designed to solve. Allagans and Garleans both seem to inherit Omicron culture elements along with their technology.

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I think it's really interesting that the people of Etherys are the only ones consistently shown to be able to cope with the existential despair inherent in the universe while simultaneously being the only known place in the universe that's literally incomplete and imperfect by design.

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I disagree with this assessment somewhat. Perfection is a nonstarter design element as none of Dead ends nations (or Ancients) where perfect. What was done to Etherians is taken away their ability to push the troubles away. When you cant run from the issue you either deal with it or it crushes you. Putting them away with conveniences or excuses does not eliminate them but instead lets the issues grow to the point where they cannot be pushed aside anymore and are too big to deal with. Thus crushing the people.

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

I disagree with this assessment somewhat. Perfection is a nonstarter design element as none of Dead ends nations (or Ancients) where perfect. What was done to Etherians is taken away their ability to push the troubles away. When you cant run from the issue you either deal with it or it crushes you. Putting them away with conveniences or excuses does not eliminate them but instead lets the issues grow to the point where they cannot be pushed aside anymore and are too big to deal with. Thus crushing the people.

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Yet it was neither claw nor flame, but our very sins, stacked to the heavens where they took root, corrupting its halls

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

At the same time, I also love that FFXIV has the consistent message that while we must move on from the past, we must also remember the past, and not try to forget it. Which is spelled out explicitly again in the EW role quests as you mentioned; just about every one of them deals with moving on from the trauma of past events, but also to face that trauma and accept it for what it is.

There's never a call to forgive and forget. Never forget, and forgiveness is personal and optional, but everyone still needs to move on, while keeping in mind the lessons of the past.

Bringing it back to the thread, the dead civilizations encountered by Meteion seem to have been particularly brittle, possibly due to Meteion's influence, but brittle nonetheless. They couldn't draw on past experiences with their own suffering and sorrow to go "yes, we know, we already went through that, and we learned from it". The Ancient Amaurotines seem to have the same weakness: they don't appear to be well-versed in their own history, and are suspiciously incurious about how their own civilization got to where they are, and what lessons can be learned from the past to be applied to the future.

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Yeah, remembering the past is important and actually applies to our lives in the real world as well. You think about all the groups who try to censor bits of our past, both good and bad, because they didn't like what happened. And yes, some of the stuff was horrible. But that's part of our history and we need to know the truth of things because it's the only way we can keep moving forward instead of repeating our mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

A fun thing that not everyone finds (including myself) in the quest where you go book-hunting in the Noumenon, there's a book that mentions the concept of the heat death of the universe. The reason Y'shtola and Urianger can grapple so readily with the Ea's anxiety is because Sharlayan did exactly that: they've already grappled with that crisis.

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Did they? Or is such a crisis simply so far in the future and so far out of their wheelhouse that they'll never actually need to confront it? To the Sharlayans the notion of the heat-death of the universe is simply a scientific curiosity. To the Ea, this is something they will directly, personally, individually run up against. Saying mankind successfully grappled with the crisis of the heat-death of the universe is like saying that an ant successfully grappled with the climate crisis.

https://i.imgur.com/CmtAR7H.jpeg

This is one of my core issues with the sundering and the notion of humanity's superior existence and superior handling of despair. Standing firm against a threat that is fundamentally incomprehensible isn't courage, it's ignorance. Being so inured to suffering and brutality that you accept it as a matter of course isn't strength of character, it's trauma bonding. And sacrificing the ideal of the world you want just for the sake of survival isn't righteousness, it's raw moral surrender.

https://i.imgur.com/AACJHmn.jpg

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Originally Posted by Veloran

This is one of my core issues with the sundering and the notion of humanity's superior existence and superior handling of despair. Standing firm against a threat that is fundamentally incomprehensible isn't courage, it's ignorance. Being so inured to suffering and brutality that you accept it as a matter of course isn't strength of character, it's trauma bonding. And sacrificing the ideal of the world you want just for the sake of survival isn't righteousness, it's raw moral surrender.

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Despair is not fundamentally incomprehensible though. The Ancients chose to dodge it and not engage with it and declared it "fundamentally incomprehensible". Mortal races don't have such option. And by experiencing Despair they have comprehended few things: It's really bad in there and your very soul can get destroyed. Also you can cling to Hope while in there and get out with your soul intact.
And what is this Ideal of the world you are talking about? If accepting you are NOT arbiter of how world should function is "raw moral surrender" then refusal to do so is just "Prideful hubris of god complex". Refusal to se the world as it is and instead constantly telling it how it should be. Its fine to extent your power and influence over the world, but there are definite limits of how much you CAN change. Push too much and the world will readjust by its own rules and not your ideals.
Speaking of Climate Crisis. What makes you think Ants are grappling with it worse than Humans are? They are not wallowing in despair over their own powerlessness cursing and demanding everyone else to fix it while also not in any way diminishing their quality of life. Once the time comes Ants my very well go extinct. But until then you live the best life you can :P.

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Despair is not fundamentally incomprehensible though.

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I wasn't referring to "despair" in some vague general sense. I was referring to the actual issues causing despair. It's not fair to say that mankind is superior to the Ea at overcoming "despair" for example, because they did not and will not ever need to face the problem that the Ea would themselves have to directly. Similarly it isn't fair to say that humanity is superior to the Ancients at facing and overcoming loss, because in the end mankind didn't come anywhere near facing the absolute planetary devastation and loss of 99% of the population and everything and everyone they had ever known that the post-Final Days Ancients had experienced. The nearest equivalence for modern humanity would be the events of the First and the 8UC timeline, where in both cases even the slightest glimmer of hope was only granted to people by outside forces interceding on their behalf, something the Ancients never had.

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If accepting you are NOT arbiter of how world should function is "raw moral surrender" then refusal to do so is just "Prideful hubris of god complex". Refusal to se the world as it is and instead constantly telling it how it should be.

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Do the Scions have the hubris of a god complex? Whenever they see injustice they seek to correct it according to their own values and desires and to the best of their ability. Anyone who choses to enact change or direction to the world is in essence choosing to be the arbiter of how they perceive the world should work rather than allowing themselves to get swept up in a current of acceptance of "this is just how things are now".

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Speaking of Climate Crisis. What makes you think Ants are grappling with it worse than Humans are? They are not wallowing in despair over their own powerlessness cursing and demanding everyone else to fix it while also not in any way diminishing their quality of life.

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Because they're ignorant of the crisis entirely. They don't have the capacity to actually understand or face it in any way. Again this isn't courage, this isn't "grappling" with anything, it's just being unknowing.