Ninja DPS Output(A possible Fix)

Straight to the point. Ninja is fun but it has always been low dps for alot of work. I have no problem with this as long as my support equals out. I'm tired of the same old fixes for this though (alter trick attack.) I would like to see ninja's gaining more support or more personal damage. Leave Trick attack out of the discussion.

There were two abilities in the past that could be used to serve the purpose desired and can be gained from a trait. The trait I have in mind would alter Hide to be usable in combat and can be gained whenever desired. The altered version should be either Smokescreen, and Shadewalker.

My suggestion is either give us back smokescreen as a trait that alters hide, usable in battle and granting either crit rate or direct hit chance to the entire party, much like bard music for a short period of time, while granting suiton. Or... Give us Shadewalker that increase our own crit rate or direct hit chance for a short period of time while granting suiton. Either ability should be on a long cooldown.

This will give ninja more jutsu to use because 1 less suiton cast every 2 Tricks and increase our output without the hastle of worrying too much about everyone else. Even with Smokescreen being a raid buff the extra Jutsu every 2 minutes within our trick window will bring us up in damage. Using the Shadewalker option also rids the hassle of worrying about how much it alters everyone else. I would prefer to stay in the support role even though we basically aren't support at this point anyway (imo).

It's been stated that Busy jobs should be seeing some type of adjustments and I'm pretty sure ninja is one of those jobs. This suggestion is probably late but I feel I should leave it here anyway. Any thoughts on said suggestion positive or negative are welcome.

Wtb 6 Raijus back k thx bai.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Wtb 6 Raijus back k thx bai.

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Bye. Have a great day.

Or... they could literally just increase some potencies on already existing skills without adding more buttons and increase NIN's rDPS via aDPS. NIN's low output isn't some mechanical issue - the job's been simply undertuned when going into 6.0. SHB NIN (after buffs) was actually pretty high up there in rDPS.

While I'd love some more actual utility back on ninja (you know, something like Mantra or Arcane Crest instead of just rDPS increases), adding more damage buffs to the job is just more likely to cause SE to undertune it again in the future, because they've been clearly terrified of accidentally giving too much firepower to jobs with raid buffs since SHB.

I really do miss single-target utility on dps, like Palisade and Apocatastatis and I wouldn't mind to see Smokescreen come back as a Shadeshift-like shield, but shareable.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Or... they could literally just increase some potencies on already existing skills without adding more buttons and increase NIN's rDPS via aDPS.

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This suggestion would turn hide, already on your hotbar into another skill. Not add a button.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

adding more damage buffs to the job is just more likely to cause SE to undertune it again in the future, because they've been clearly terrified of accidentally giving too much firepower to jobs with raid buffs since SHB.

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SE is undertuning it because of what trick actually does.(to my knowledge) It increases all the dmg the boss is taking from all sources to include dots. This includes attacks that don't crit or DH but still stacks with it. This has been their argument always in ninjas existence and is why their dps is so low and we are considered support even with only one skill. They aren't promising us potencies and whenever the conversation happens around ninja it is always first adjust trick attack and if they can't get it right then give them damage. Thats why it took so many patches in SHB to fix.

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Originally Posted by Uliq

SE is undertuning it because of what trick actually does.(to my knowledge)

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It doesn't matter how Trick works - at the end of the day it just increases the total rDPS contribution of NIN and should be counted as part of it, just like SAM's pure outgoing damage counts towards theirs.

NIN is not the only job with a raid buff that's gotten undertuned though. DRG likewise was lagging behind at 6.0 the launch. Entire physical ranged role was(and kinda stayed) awful when 5.0 launched. DNC is incredibly bad right now. SE is just in general afraid of the HW/SB meta when all people cared about was raid buffs. On the other hand MNK and RPR are allowed to be genuinely op, because SE considers them "selfish" jobs - at least according to what Yoshi P usually says - since their raid buffs aren't that powerful by themselves.

Imo I want Trick Attack back at 10%, 5% feels too weak to me.
Or maybe make the damage buff higher for the NIN themselves while keeping it at 5% for the group.

5% doesn't rly feel that impactful imo, not talking about the actual numbers in logs necessarily but on screen.
Using Trick Attack and it being such a big deal should have a more direct impact on how it feels to play imo, there isn't much of it tho.
If you just did your Trick Attack window rotation without Trick Attack you'd probably not really notice the difference on screen in terms of numbers.
Just barely.

Edit: Also giving the NIN a separate buff % would probably make it easier to balance NIN's damage too.
It also just makes sense imo, the sneaky aspect of NIN should play a bigger role so Trick Attack just thematically being a bigger deal for you as the NIN would make sense.

My personal hope is that SQEnix just increases some NIN potencies rather than cribs bad design ideas from the forums.

I want to be able to use Hide in combat, that is what they should be working towards, it effectively lets you double up all mudras and also doubles up as job idenity but if they added that as it stands currently it would break the game. Hide SHOULD be used in combat. People assume ninja is a support role like dancer because of trick attack. It's ridiculous that the skill has so much identity and the boomers of this game fear change and adaptability and are hardstuck with that mentality.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Or... they could literally just increase some potencies on already existing skills without adding more buttons and increase NIN's rDPS via aDPS. NIN's low output isn't some mechanical issue - the job's been simply undertuned when going into 6.0. SHB NIN (after buffs) was actually pretty high up there in rDPS.

While I'd love some more actual utility back on ninja (you know, something like Mantra or Arcane Crest instead of just rDPS increases), adding more damage buffs to the job is just more likely to cause SE to undertune it again in the future, because they've been clearly terrified of accidentally giving too much firepower to jobs with raid buffs since SHB.

I really do miss single-target utility on dps, like Palisade and Apocatastatis and I wouldn't mind to see Smokescreen come back as a Shadeshift-like shield, but shareable.

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Being able to use Shadeshift on another party member at half effectiveness would be a good start.
But being the Dex melee, it should probably get something like SCHs new party wide sprint buff.

As for actual potency buffs, I think it should capitalise on burst to make use of the Yrick window, so a buff to say DwaD or Hyoton, anything you solely use for Trick, would be good.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

I want to be able to use Hide in combat, that is what they should be working towards, it effectively lets you double up all mudras and also doubles up as job idenity but if they added that as it stands currently it would break the game. Hide SHOULD be used in combat.

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While stealthing in-combat may work well in other games, it requires having decent mechanics linked to it. As it is now, NIN only has Trick Attack which is already used with Suiton and I don't see SE adding more mechanics to the job - the tendency in general is to remove things, not add, as much as I dislike it. The only reason Hide resets ninjutsu currently is because it can only be used out of combat, it's there to make Huton upkeep smoother and not have NIN's ask their raid groups for 25 second countdowns. Letting us reset like that in combat would be a total mess, we already use nijutsu a lot as is.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

People assume ninja is a support role like dancer because of trick attack. It's ridiculous that the skill has so much identity and the boomers of this game fear change and adaptability and are hardstuck with that mentality.

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People think about NIN as a utility job, because that is what it used to be for most of its existence and SE still talks about it like that, despite removing all the utility. It was only in 5.0 when all NIN utility was axed and they were left with just a raid buff in Trick Attack. Before that NIN used to have 2 very useful enmity manipulation skills and an ability to recover other people's TP(physical gcd resource akin to MP, which has been axed in 5.0).

Trick is central to NIN's gameplay loop and it would be stupid to remove it. Devs just need to stop overvaluing its rDPS contribution and taxing the job too heavily in aDPS because of it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As for actual potency buffs, I think it should capitalise on burst to make use of the Yrick window, so a buff to say DwaD or Hyoton, anything you solely use for Trick, would be good.

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I'm not sure it's a good idea to push even more of NIN's output into burst, it's already pretty high as it is. It might be better to just slap some potency on the weaponskills or increase their ninki gains to also improve apm outside of TA. The second option could potentially also fix the current "Bhava right before TA" weirdness, if calculated correctly.

Of course buffing weaponskills in any way would likely need a second look at burst gcds so that they don't fall behind, however NIN has plenty of room for buffs currently so it shouldn't be an issue.

Change trick to 3% and buff them to high heaven.
This games philosophy of raid buffs and the mentality of buffing someone else increases your damage is kinda weird and tiring tbh. Remove all that and give us talent trees, perhaps bite the bullet and be active on balancing for a better experience all round. I mean the same damn rotations for 2 years in a row every two years. And most time with only minor adjustments after two years. No variety.

Thats why the dps role is arguably boring outside of dopamine hits. Healers and Tanks are more interesting in general, so long as you play them for the role and not for the communities request of damage bot.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

While stealthing in-combat may work well in other games, it requires having decent mechanics linked to it. As it is now, NIN only has Trick Attack which is already used with Suiton and I don't see SE adding more mechanics to the job - the tendency in general is to remove things, not add, as much as I dislike it. The only reason Hide resets ninjutsu currently is because it can only be used out of combat, it's there to make Huton upkeep smoother and not have NIN's ask their raid groups for 25 second countdowns. Letting us reset like that in combat would be a total mess, we already use nijutsu a lot as is.



People think about NIN as a utility job, because that is what it used to be for most of its existence and SE still talks about it like that, despite removing all the utility. It was only in 5.0 when all NIN utility was axed and they were left with just a raid buff in Trick Attack. Before that NIN used to have 2 very useful enmity manipulation skills and an ability to recover other people's TP(physical gcd resource akin to MP, which has been axed in 5.0).

Trick is central to NIN's gameplay loop and it would be stupid to remove it. Devs just need to stop overvaluing its rDPS contribution and taxing the job too heavily in aDPS because of it.



I'm not sure it's a good idea to push even more of NIN's output into burst, it's already pretty high as it is. It might be better to just slap some potency on the weaponskills or increase their ninki gains to also improve apm outside of TA. The second option could potentially also fix the current "Bhava right before TA" weirdness, if calculated correctly.

Of course buffing weaponskills in any way would likely need a second look at burst gcds so that they don't fall behind, however NIN has plenty of room for buffs currently so it shouldn't be an issue.

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Hmm. After you use your burst or opener and you're building up for the next rotation you can throw one Raiton there and then there's a few seconds of dead wait time where you're waiting for Trick. Hide could be used in that window. The job is busy, but I think this is not the job that should have the option of here's one skill to use when you stand still and here's one to use that helps you position. Just feels awkward.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Hmm. After you use your burst or opener and you're building up for the next rotation you can throw one Raiton there and then there's a few seconds of dead wait time where you're waiting for Trick. Hide could be used in that window. The job is busy, but I think this is not the job that should have the option of here's one skill to use when you stand still and here's one to use that helps you position. Just feels awkward.

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You shouldn't have any Raitons "left" for outside of TA unless you need to move some out of burst for the sake of uptime. You get 3 natural(non Kassatsu, non TCJ) Ninjutsu uses per minute, 2 of those end in TA and one is used outside of burst for Suiton in order to set up TA. I don't think there really is a need for more Ninjutsu outside TA. I like my blade play - it is fitting both to the rogue roots of the job and ninjas in general, it shouldn't all be just magic tricks - and we've already lost a lot of it with the 5.1 rework. What I'd prefer to add more variety in downtime would be giving us back the Shadowfang combo and maybe some more weaving (which could be the earlier mentioned extra Bhavas or some new, short ogcd).

I don't really feel any "awkwardness" with how Raijus work now - having a meaningful, situational choice between two skills with same damage and different utility feels pretty damn good actually. If anything, NIN is exactly the job that should have an option like this, since it gives that feeling of thinking on the fly and being able to improvise - both skills very important for any rogue, spy or assassin - and mechanically it enforces the flexibility NIN has been valued for in SHB.

I'll be honest the moment you said that a gap closer is as meaningful as a standing still skill my brain short circuited so I will assume you're being sarcastic. So here's some sarcasm.

It's a good thing the clown event is happening soon. I look forward to jesting.

After all, mudras are all about standing in melee range.

I for one I am grateful that Square has taken away choice and replaced it with a meaningless option. But at least it's there and it makes me feel smart.

Gap closers? No thanks. It hurts to think.
Another combo? No thanks. Think of the controller people.
Utility? I've yet to see it on the Ninja but I guess I will pretend to have played the job in the ages past so I can garner pointless attention from older players.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

I'll be honest the moment you said that a gap closer is as meaningful as a standing still skill my brain short circuited so I will assume you're being sarcastic.

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Lemme guess - you haven't really ran savage as a melee yet, have you? Not a dis btw, just that would explain why you don't see a value in a regular, melee weapon skill vs a gap closer, as it doesn't come up nearly as much in non-optimized, casual content.

See, in a lot of the harder fights you have to be way more careful about your movement while still trying to maintain your uptime. You might have to execute your burst on the move, stay at max melee range in order to not get hit by a point-blank AoE that extends past the enemy hitbox or simply stay put in your assigned position in order to execute a mechanic which would wipe the group if you mess it up. In all of these situations a gap closer bringing you to the edge of the target's hitbox is a liability - that's the main reason people had an issue with the original iteration of Raijus ever since we've learnt how they work - and in those situations Fleeting being a regular melee attack becomes utility.

On the other hand, if you have to completely disengage for a time during your burst, Forked may be the better option as it can be executed at range and brings you back into melee instantly. Hence both skills offer different utility options and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Lemme guess - you haven't really ran savage as a melee yet, have you? Not a dis btw, just that would explain why you don't see a value in a regular, melee weapon skill vs a gap closer, as it doesn't come up nearly as much in non-optimized, casual content.

See, in a lot of the harder fights you have to be way more careful about your movement while still trying to maintain your uptime. You might have to execute your burst on the move, stay at max melee range in order to not get hit by a point-blank AoE that extends past the enemy hitbox or simply stay put in your assigned position in order to execute a mechanic which would wipe the group if you mess it up. In all of these situations a gap closer bringing you to the edge of the target's hitbox is a liability - that's the main reason people had an issue with the original iteration of Raijus ever since we've learnt how they work - and in those situations Fleeting being a regular melee attack becomes utility.

On the other hand, if you have to completely disengage for a time during your burst, Forked may be the better option as it can be executed at range and brings you back into melee instantly. Hence both skills offer different utility options and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

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Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

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Bud, I have given you a pretty clear explanation, with examples of various situations which I have ran into several times while doing content on ninja in this game, along with how the differences between the two skills apply to said situations. You're the one talking out of your behind about how something "feels" awkward.

I personally still don't feel like the old Raiju were a problem ( yes I've done the two first Savage at least, I started last weekend and had irl issues + shitty groups getting in the way but I am moving on to the next two soon ).
Granted they were already changed when I started doing it but I don't think it should've been an issue rly but it's not my main issue rly with the changes.
With that said I don't necessarily mind making them two options either.
My issue is that we lost 3 Raijus in the process, I liked using 6 Raijus.

The main issue that needed to be solved imo was to make them not break on weapon skills.
Give us two stacks per Raiton back and make them not break on weapon skills.

This would actually add some extra depth to NIN too in that it would allow us to stock a charge for charging back to the boss when we know we'll have to disengage soon.

So long as jobs are balanced around 8-man content, portioning a job even more towards rDPS is really just nerfing its solo / light party potential. NIN has low enough aDPS relative to rDPS as is. We're not Bards. We don't need to be even more gutless when alone.

I'd rather just first buff potencies over what level spans it's most behind and then buff Raijuu potency for what level cap difference remains.

NIN should be a top-rDPS job (not referring to having the most support as some seem to mistake rDPS for of late, but simply personal damage dealt + bonus damage given to party - bonus damage received from party). It's both one of the busiest jobs and has literally no utility, at this point, not already accounted for in said rDPS.

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Some related notes:

• I don't think the old Raijuu combo was a problem, but at my low ping, the "self-stun" of Forked Raijuu was under a quarter-second so long as I was already at the edge of the enemy's hitbox or nearer, so take that with a grain of salt.
  In terms of flow and flair, I preferred having that combo over the single-GCD Raijuu now. I just would have preferred a slight bit more flexibility on them, such as by decreasing Forked Raijuu Ready's duration to 5 seconds (and 5s of Fleeting Raijuu Ready thereafter) but not having the proc be removed by other actions (nor, obviously, to break any other combo chains, etc.).
• I don't want to see Hide usable in combat if it keeps its CD refreshes. We already do some 5 Ninjutsu practically back-to-back every other minute. Added an extra two Mudra into each odd-minute window, opposite TCJ, would just make Ninjutsu feel beyond spammy. Nor do I want to see Hide as an alternative to trick attack such that we can do 3 gainful Suiton per minute (TA, Meisui, and Hide for 2 free Ninjutsu casts thereafter).
• I would want to see further rotational variance, such as by returning Shadowfang (as a rotational combo finisher, not a CD) to the mix.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I like the idea of rDPS, imo it feels good to buff the party and debuffs the boss it makes it feel more directly impactful and meaningful to me.
But yeah the issue is too that people need to actually take advantage of it too, if you do your thing and the party isn't taking advantage of it then it essentially makes your performance worse too.

This is why I've suggested before to give Trick Attack a higher damage buff to the NIN, so keep it at 5% or so for the party but make it higher for the NIN personally.
I actually do like Trick Attack and I don't want it to go away, my personal preference tho would be to redesign it sorta like Cloak of Shadows or whatever it's called in WoW where you basically enter '' sneaky mode '' and can do more powerful attacks more stealth themed.
Maybe make it turn your basic combo into more powerful attacks with new animations sorta like Enshroud on RPR ( or bring back Sneak Attack in its stead ).

Buffing the Trick Attack % buff for the NIN on a personal level tho should also make it easier to balance too since you're working with a flat % buff.
I also kinda want Shadowfang back too altho we're still very busy in our Trick Attack window and can't always fit all of it inside it.

I miss both Shadowfang and Dancing Edge as combo actions tho, it was more fun than 123 imo it made it feel more busy.
But yeah some of this like the Cloak of Shadows suggestion would require a rework.
I still kinda want Trick Attack to feel a bit more impactful to the NIN themselves tho.
We're the tricky and sneaky ones.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

This is why I've suggested before to give Trick Attack a higher damage buff to the NIN, so keep it at 5% or so for the party but make it higher for the NIN personally.

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Thematically, I'd like that.

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I actually do like Trick Attack and I don't want it to go away, my personal preference tho would be to redesign it sorta like Cloak of Shadows or whatever it's called in WoW where you basically enter '' sneaky mode '' and can do more powerful attacks more stealth themed.

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Cloak of Shadows was just a magic damage immunity CD. Shadow Dance, then?

There were some suggestions going back as far as ARR to use a Blindside mechanic. Essentially, when an enemy isn't aware of your presence, such as by having broken line of sight against them (and Suiton's pillar of water, suggested to persist for a brief time, would break line of sight), your attacks are upgraded to more powerful versions (and perhaps gain a further effect, such as Trick Attack).

At the time (and still now, to some degree, though less so what with Sneak Attack being ancient history), I was a fan of both that idea and Jump being a single skill that takes you skyward and makes you briefly immune to most forms of damage before coming down via any of various Dive actions based on your GCDs.
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For now, in my opinion, the most lackluster NIN element is Huton, oddly enough. Its application just feels like clunk, the only redeeming quality of which is that it allows for (the least interesting possible use of) a further combo finisher (maintenance of a flat Haste buff). I'd be totally fine with either the Attack Speed being trait-ed and Huton's Ninjutsu itself being turned into something else or it actually needing to be recast roughly once per minute (70s max duration again) and would much rather Armor Crush (or any rebrand of Finisher #2) do something more interesting (and then add back Shadowfang atop that).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

For now, in my opinion, the most lackluster NIN element is Huton, oddly enough. Its application just feels like clunk, the only redeeming quality of which is that it allows for (the least interesting possible use of) a further combo finisher (maintenance of a flat Haste buff). I'd be totally fine with either the Attack Speed being trait-ed and Huton's Ninjutsu itself being turned into something else or it actually needing to be recast roughly once per minute (70s max duration again) and would much rather Armor Crush (or any rebrand of Finisher #2) do something more interesting (and then add back Shadowfang atop that).

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Yeah especially with GL becoming a passive it feels a bit like it doesn't belong in the way the game plays anymore.
They could bring Shadowfang back as a combo and make Huton a passive.
It's kinda strange to me that Huraijin didn't replace Armor Crush to begin with, why does crushing someones armor refresh my Huton lol?
If not replace it with Shadowfang they could bring back Dancing Edge and make it buff Aeolian Edge or something so you're swapping between the two.

But regardless of what they do, Huton only makes for irritation in that often times tanks will insta pull in duty finder and welp your opener is messed up and you've just wasted a Ninjutsu in lower lvl content and even so in higher level content using Huraijin honestly just feels like an annoyance it's not as exciting as just leading in with your Mudras.
And keeping it up with Armor Crush isn't rly all that fun.
At least Shadowfang taking its place it'd feel a little more interesting than just '' guess imma do my lower dmg combo now to refresh Huton ''.
The damage difference isn't even big which makes it feel even more pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Yeah especially with GL becoming a passive it feels a bit like it doesn't belong in the way the game plays anymore.
They could bring Shadowfang back as a combo and make Huton a passive.

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I'd be fine with that. But, again, there are also other things we could do with Armor Crush / finishers besides just "DoT" or "More Direct Damage / Filler".

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It's kinda strange to me that Huraijin didn't replace Armor Crush to begin with, why does crushing someones armor refresh my Huton lol?

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On that note, they needed only change AC from "refreshing" to "granting" GL, move that from a "Combo Bonus" to "Additional Effect", and raise its potency floor and voila, you've got all the QoL of having Huraijin without needing to waste a button on it.

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If not replace it with Shadowfang they could bring back Dancing Edge and make it buff Aeolian Edge or something so you're swapping between the two.

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Honestly, I'm not at all a fan of rigid combo alternation, especially if you can't manipulate the timing in order to cause one to get in more of the buffed attacks (and fewer of the buffing attacks) under damage bonus windows.

I don't much like it in Leaden Fist, and that at least has Perfect Balance, a not-quite synced Demolish, and other manipulables to try to manage some actual complexity from what would otherwise just be convolution.

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But regardless of what they do, Huton only makes for irritation in that often times tanks will insta pull in duty finder and welp your opener is messed up and you've just wasted a Ninjutsu.
And keeping it up with Armor Crush isn't rly all that fun.
At least Shadowfang taking its place it'd feel a little more interesting than just '' guess imma do my lower dmg combo now to refresh Huton ''.
The damage difference isn't even big which makes it feel even more pointless.

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The saddest part is just that, even with Dancing Blade, Shadow Fang, and the (anti-synergy of) Duality making Armor Crush feel more vital, I preferred Huton being just a Ninjutsu than an ever-maintainable mechanic. At least, back then, if you got greedy at the wrong time, you would need to replace it, and the damage loss from Armor Crush was proportionately larger, so it more or less worked. But now? It's no more interesting than Storm's Eye, all while depending on a weird, clunky vulnerability.

:: Final note: I'm not a fan of the Hide mudra resets, regardless. I wish that, if they must insist on leaving Huton a cast, they'd just had Huton not trigger its cooldown if used outside of combat or within 3 seconds of entering combat (as a tank pulling a trial boss will put you into combat anyways), had Huton duration not drain outside of combat, and/or had one enter an instance with Huton already fully charged (a la Addersgall). And/or, again, just get rid of Armor Crush so there's much little point in a pre-combat Huton. Any combination of those solutions would be simpler and cleaner. (Of course, I'd also want adjustments to just about any mechanic that obliges more than a 5-second pull timer, so....)

tl;dr: In general, I kind of despise any buff that you'd want to keep 100% uptime on unless it's damn hard to do so and doing so would cause you to interact with more factors of complexity than, by outweighing other options, it'd remove. Since HW, Huton has been one such 100% uptime buff with little if any net gain to complexity. It was still basically fine to me, though, until we lost other our finishers (and Duality). Now it has basically no complexity, no real required effort, and has no times in which it'd ever be favorable to let it drop. That just pointlessly shallow, compared to other ways the capacity could be handled if it's supposed to be actively generated. Alternatively, we could just make that passive, have X-X-Ten perform some other effect (e.g., Bunshin, though such that it's only a potency gain over Raiton if used during downtime, before Trick Attack, or when Phantom Kamitachi [the remaining cooldown] can be cast), and change the purpose of Armor Crush to something more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

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You should really crawl back to the WoW forums with your asinine tone and attitude. WoW Andy thinks he knows anything about this game. What a joke.
Oh and speaking of theorycrafting : How many savage/ ultimate clears do you hold on Ninja ?

On topic:

I have the outrageous point of view that Nin would be a more enjoyable class without trick attack.
Its going against what Ninja has been since its inception, Im aware. However, in my opinion it would open up design space a bit, as Nin wouldnt have to cram
everything and grandmas rocking chair into that window, offering a more spread out, natural flow of combat.
Additionally, Square wouldnt have to design the DPS around trick.

Yes, it smells a bit like homogenization but perhaps Nin can differentiate itself in another manner. Im aware this is sacrilege and the lynching is coming for me now but hey, its just an opinion.

Virtually every job has damage windows into which to cram "anything and everything" and without TA that'd just turn into everyone else's 15 seconds buffs every other minute. Ninja will never not exploit damage windows to the best of its ability; every job is obliged to.

If you want TA to be a less invasive factor, that's just a matter of reducing NIN's ability to bank for and thereby exploit any and all raid damage windows. Such would be more helped by having a greater portion of CDs that would rarely sync to multipliers of 60, reverting Kassatsu to not give a free (non-charge-consuming) cast, or even by taking out our second charge of Ninjutsu than by removing TA.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you want TA to be a less invasive factor, that's just a matter of reducing NIN's ability to bank for and thereby exploit any and all raid damage windows. Such would be more helped by having a greater portion of CDs that would rarely sync to multipliers of 60, reverting Kassatsu to not give a free (non-charge-consuming) cast, or even by taking out our second charge of Ninjutsu than by removing TA.

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This tbh, but it will not happen. SE has been deliberately aligning things more and more and killing any drifting possible since 5.0. I personally hate this direction, because it makes things more boring, but it is the direction we're going in.

5.0 NIN was quite the outlier, still retaining a very varied rotation and some (accidentally) big-brain optimization with Meisui, but got completely streamlined in the 5.1 rework. Had to hammer in that last remaining nail I guess.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

This tbh, but it will not happen. SE has been deliberately aligning things more and more and killing any drifting possible since 5.0. I personally hate this direction, because it makes things more boring, but it is the direction we're going in.

5.0 NIN was quite the outlier, still retaining a very varied rotation and some (accidentally) big-brain optimization with Meisui, but got completely streamlined in the 5.1 rework. Had to hammer in that last remaining nail I guess.

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Tbf, outside of boss jumps, the only big drift concern is, itself, TA, but so long as Ninjutsu continues to trigger its cooldown upon starting into the mudra sequence, instead of on release (as per the earlier design), and Suiton has a long prep period, drift remains basically a non-issue.

With both Kassatsu not giving a free charge and Ninjutsu having only one Charge, you'd have one fewer NJ cast per minute, of course, but the larger effect is simply that rather than the majority of Ninjutsu casts falling into TA, Ninjutsu casts under TA become basically proportionate to time spent under TA (well, 1 in 3 non-free casts, rather than 2 in 3).

There's also just the further matter of Ninjutsu's apparent potency -- as in, what the player perceives, more so than what they amount to, as portion of total damage, over time. When a given tool itself is overwhelming strong compared to typical actions, they overshadow those, diminishing the excitement that'd come from synergies (even such modest ones as manipulating the timing of this or that to get in one more strong GCD / one fewer weak GCD within a damage window). When Fuma Shuriken was an (admittedly still slightly undertuned) option for purposes of noticeably saving uptime (and especially when other timers like Dancing Blade, Mutilate, and Shadow Fang still played a part in anchoring play and changing the relative costs of uptime), Ninjutsu didn't so greatly push the normal combos out of interest. Equally notable, it also provided a soft manipulator against drift.

All in all, it's a shame how many "QoL" changes have managed to "solve" a given issue only by reducing agency and thereby creating new issues or constraints of their own. Reduced ping penalty on mudras, for instance, needed only the HW Empyreal Arrow treatment -- properly queueable weaponskills that would incur but not respect the global cooldown as triggered by other skills, with animation locks significantly shorter than their GCD periods. That'd have still allowed for the same protection against ping-based upside cost while moving all players nearer to the way NIN flowed for low-ping players before, rather than forcing all NIN to play like a 250-ping player over the course of their mudras and would not have deemphasized weaponskills nor pushed out other rotational elements.

I was a main nin in ARR/Heavensward and a bit in Stormblood but with each expansion it was getting worse and worse. What nin is currently lacking is personal dmg up buff, all other melee jobs have such tool: Reaper-death design, Monk-greased light/stance, Samurai-cant remember skill name but both dmg up and weaponskill recast faster skills, DRG-tether/blood4blood/disembowel.

In ARR/Heavensward nin had "poison dagger" in form of viper/wasp poisons that increased personal dmg and give separete skills stun (viper) and silence (wasp) skills unlocked. Devs killed the skill becouse it was increasing mudra skill dmg too but by looking on how complex and punishing nin work is, you need to remember skill rotation along with mudra rotation in between those, no 1press skill execution like ALL others class have (besides dnc dances) they should give that skill back. Trick Attack from nin in current 5% form compared to 10% is underpowered compared to other jobs with dmg up buffs (reaper/monk) or crip up (drg litany), and since those jobs are easier to use its better to bring those other easier jobs that do more dmg compared to nins dmg-pilled up work

They should seriously give up the bunny already in mudras and in its place give at least a fuma shukiren if we mess it up, its lower dmg than raiton but at least its not 0dmg skill. But by looking on how other classes work they should rework nin from scratch, get rid of mudra system and input 1button skills with a split chakra/ninki system. We use weaponskills and gather chakra, chakra is used on skills like Raiton/katon/doton/sution in single or aoe form. Using chakra skills would incrase ninki bar and from that we can use it on brava/frog/clones. Kinda like reaper system is working. Not only it would be easier but it would also provide constant dmg without penalty of high latency or muscle mudra error.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

What nin is currently lacking is personal dmg up buff, all other melee jobs have such tool: Reaper-death design, Monk-greased light/stance, Samurai-cant remember skill name but both dmg up and weaponskill recast faster skills, DRG-tether/blood4blood/disembowel.

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There is no mathematical difference between having a full uptime damage buff or just higher baseline potencies. The only good reason to give NIN something like that would be to give it another combo or some other decent maintenance mechanic, but it has nothing to do with NIN's state of being underpowered.

Also BfB(actually Lance Charge now) and tether on DRG aren't full uptime, they're burst buffs and Greased Lightning hasn't been a damage buff since mid-SHB - it's a passive gcd reduction trait now. As far as attack speed buffs go, NIN already has full uptime Huton.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Trick Attack from nin in current 5% form compared to 10% is underpowered compared to other jobs with dmg up buffs (reaper/monk) or crip up (drg litany), and since those jobs are easier to use its better to bring those other easier jobs that do more dmg compared to nins dmg-pilled up work

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TA has been nerfed with it's shift from 10% for 10 seconds into 5% for 15 seconds, however it still remains the strongest raid burst buff in the game. All the other raid burst buffs have twice the recast and in many cases lower % increase as well. Crit rate from Litany has a lower value per percent than a flat out all-damage increase of TA.

Regardless, the reason NIN is underpowered isn't specifically because TA is too weak, but because NIN's total contribution from TA and their personal output isn't high enough. Balance doesn't care where the rDPS comes from, only how much.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

But by looking on how other classes work they should rework nin from scratch

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No. All of the noes. NIN plays fine for the most part, it could use some tweaks and improvements, but definitely not ones meant to make it more like other jobs. The only justification for homogenization is balance and there is nothing in NIN's playstyle that makes it weak mechanically - it's literally just numerical undertunning. If you want the playstyle of another job, then play that other job.

Simple fix for NIN, make trick give 5% as normal but buff your own damage by 20%. So you get 20% additional damage + the 5% extra you are doing to the target with the trick buff.

PROBLEM SOLVED. Pay me.

I think they should revert the changes they did back and make it’s so that the raijin charges stay even when you use a other gcd. Keep raijin potency how they are after the change. Like the opener felt really good and you had no bunshin stacks at the end and now it’s just urgh and I come out of it with 2 stacks still on bunshin. It feels super scuffed now

Yeeaah, between accusing people of some made up stuff, randomly raving about discord of all things and the obvious lack of knowledge on the current game balance or design, I'm afraid the guy's more delirious than the DRK's burst window. Probably wiser to just bow out before catching the crazy.

What essay lol?
Most of your comments have been about equal in length.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Simple fix for NIN, make trick give 5% as normal but buff your own damage by 20%. So you get 20% additional damage + the 5% extra you are doing to the target with the trick buff.

PROBLEM SOLVED. Pay me.

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I like this idea. NIN for the most party feels great, especially after riaju changes.