Take Mana Regen off Draw + Astrodyne

Playing both Astro and WHM, there is a clear amount of favouritism to Astro because of the near infinite MP recovery we have.

If Mana Recovery was taken off Draw + Astrodyne, that would actually force us to make meaningful choices with our heals. Its not much but its a start. WHM is a pain to use and its main resource regens at 30s while Astro can draw cards for buffs all day.

Hardly seems fair.

Why not buff WHM instead of making AST worse to play?

fun fact:
astro started undertuned as hell in shb. it had constant mana problems, worse than current whm. thats why it had cheaper heals.
then in 5.3 they gave mp regen to draw, and ast suddenly had the best mp economy in shb.

then in endwalker, the devs forgot or something.
they gave astro even more mp, and decided to nerf thin air, while also keeping their gcd heal costs more expensive than ast.

Some of the Healer decisions every expansion are just baffling. Astro has more free healing than WHM thru oGCDs, less expensive spells, and more ways to recoup MP but WHM got Thin Air nerfed. So much lol

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Some of the Healer decisions every expansion are just baffling. Astro has more free healing than WHM thru oGCDs, less expensive spells, and more ways to recoup MP but WHM got Thin Air nerfed. So much lol

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given how bad 5.0 ast & sch were, and especially how bad sleeve draw was on release, i dont think they playtest healers much beyond "the kit is functional in theory i guess".

in case you dont rememvber 5.0 sleeve draw, you had to use the draw action 3 times in a row, instead of just giving you 3 cards.



also this official ast sample skill usage is hilarious. if you look closely youll notice that synastry didnt even do anything.... and it was also used prepull
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFlYblIV...name=4096x4096

at least the other healers had broil and glare in it guess....

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Originally Posted by QooEr

given how bad 5.0 ast & sch were, and especially how bad sleeve draw was on release, i dont think they playtest healers much beyond "the kit is functional in theory i guess".

in case you dont rememvber 5.0 sleeve draw, you had to use the draw action 3 times in a row, instead of just giving you 3 cards.



also this official ast sample skill usage is hilarious. if you look closely youll notice that synastry didnt even do anything.... and it was also used prepull

at least the other healers had broil and glare in it guess....

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Ew. I started when it gave you 3 cards... and when Lady/Lord of crowns was ALSO its own animation! That was fun (no it wasn't)!


Back to the original post... while I wouldn't mind if Astrodyne's mana refresh was removed (its kinda over kill) please don't also remove the mp gain on the cards. Especially since Lightspeed no longer reduces mp cost now.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Playing both Astro and WHM, there is a clear amount of favouritism to Astro because of the near infinite MP recovery we have.

If Mana Recovery was taken off Draw + Astrodyne, that would actually force us to make meaningful choices with our heals. Its not much but its a start. WHM is a pain to use and its main resource regens at 30s while Astro can draw cards for buffs all day.

Hardly seems fair.

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Nah, I’d rather them adjust WHM’s MP economy. I don’t want to go back to the days when AST couldn’t Raise without being MP negative for the rest of the fight (first half of ShB). Even SB AST had to be incredibly careful and use old Celestial Opposition to extend their Lucid Dreaming, otherwise they could run into mana problems pretty fast. I guess at least, back then, you could always use a Ewer on yourself??? SB WHM was a bottomless well of mana.

I honestly wouldn’t say there’s any favoritism with the healers. All three of the pre-EW ones have had rough times at various points throughout the expansions—WHM and AST frequently traded spots at the bottom. HW WHM had mana issues. HW AST was barely able to function as a healer when it first released. It only really became meta because WHM struggled so much with MP, and the devs thought 20% Balance/10% AOE Balance for 30 seconds on an entire party wasn’t broken at all. WHM’s SB job mechanic was literally useless—you cared as much about the lilies as you did putting putting Repose on your bar—the job was still in a fairly decent place though in terms of mana and healing ability, even if it lacked answers to things like Earthly Star. ShB AST was horrible on release: gutted card system, clunky Sleeve Draw and unresponsive Play, heals incredibly weak compared to the other two.

All in all, healers are more neglected than anything else in this game. I don’t think there’s any ounce of favoritism shown towards them. But perhaps I’m just a jaded healer.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Nah, I’d rather them adjust WHM’s MP economy. I don’t want to go back to the days when AST couldn’t Raise without being MP negative for the rest of the fight (first half of ShB). Even SB AST had to be incredibly careful and use old Celestial Opposition to extend their Lucid Dreaming, otherwise they could run into mana problems pretty fast. I guess at least, back then, you could always use a Ewer on yourself??? SB WHM was a bottomless well of mana.

I honestly wouldn’t say there’s any favoritism with the healers. All three of the pre-EW ones have had rough times at various points throughout the expansions—WHM and AST frequently traded spots at the bottom. HW WHM had mana issues. HW AST was barely able to function as a healer when it first released. It only really became meta because WHM struggled so much with MP, and the devs thought 20% Balance/10% AOE Balance for 30 seconds on an entire party wasn’t broken at all. WHM’s SB job mechanic was literally useless—you cared as much about the lilies as you did putting putting Repose on your bar—the job was still in a fairly decent place though in terms of mana and healing ability, even if it lacked answers to things like Earthly Star. ShB AST was horrible on release: gutted card system, clunky Sleeve Draw and unresponsive Play, heals incredibly weak compared to the other two.

All in all, healers are more neglected than anything else in this game. I don’t think there’s any ounce of favoritism shown towards them. But perhaps I’m just a jaded healer.

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Healers are the neglected children, with WHM being the Redheaded Stepchild, AST being the problem child and SCH being the black sheep.

AST's MP recovery is completely busted and needs to be nerfed. I like MP management.

Weekly PSA that MP management is only fun if you actually have something to manage and it gives you choices. XIV's healer kits have impressively little choice outside "cast a spell this GCD" vs "don't cast a spell this GCD". The way the kits are designed, "MP management" is pretty close to a binary choice between "my kit gives me enough mana to do my job" and "I need to stand around and do nothing because it doesn't".

That being said, Lucid has been whittled down to a boring button you press on cooldown. It's not interactive. You could proportionally increase passive MP recovery and never miss it.

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at least the other healers had broil and glare in it guess....

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This screenshot is legitimately one of the funniest things I've seen this week. Thank you.

I'd rather them buff WHM'S MP recovery than nerf AST. For one, AST has never had MP recovery tools aside from Lightspeed halving it (which was dumb since it's a weaving/movement tool) so 5.3 was the best they could do for AST.

I get people want piety to be useful but crippling job's sustain is punishing got players can manage their MP and still run OOM.

AST's MP recovery is built into its gameplay rewarding you for drawing cards and using Astrodyne.

Same with SCH where you want to use Aetherflow on CD.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

AST's MP recovery is completely busted and needs to be nerfed. I like MP management.

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MP management like that is an illusion in this game.

If you stick to cheap heals like Cure I, or take self-enforced downtime or such, you're just killing your own performance. Nor do you really have a choice. If someone dies you can't just leave them on the ground to manage mana. If the raid takes unexpected damage you can't just ignore it to save mana. If the tank is getting torn to shreds on a big pull, each GCD needs to be a big heal or you'll fall behind the damage intake.
MP management boils down to "stack Piety to safety so you won't go empty if mess happens". I loathe Piety. It punishes you for playing better. Every bit of mana you have at the end of the fight is Piety that wasn't needed, meaning that much Piety did literally nothing.

AST MP management is a result of using Play and Astrodyne consistently on cooldown. If you fall behind and drift or ignore them, you lose mana, if you play well you have all the mana you need and can ignore Piety. It's fine really.

WHM on the otherhand, Thin Air punishes you the better you play. It needs attention.

ASTs had been begging or Draw to come with a small MP regen effect all throughout SB and ShB, do not take that away from them.

SGE meanwhile gets MP back for spamming oGCD heals, you're literally get paid to overheal.

Don't take away these effects from other healers, give WHM a better MP regen effect instead.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Weekly PSA that MP management is only fun if you actually have something to manage and it gives you choices. XIV's healer kits have impressively little choice outside "cast a spell this GCD" vs "don't cast a spell this GCD". The way the kits are designed, "MP management" is pretty close to a binary choice between "my kit gives me enough mana to do my job" and "I need to stand around and do nothing because it doesn't".

That being said, Lucid has been whittled down to a boring button you press on cooldown. It's not interactive. You could proportionally increase passive MP recovery and never miss it.

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I think PVP makes mp management quite interesting for healers. At least I often think of PVP when talking about MP management.

In PVP, healers have no Lucid Dreaming, nor any other tools for MP recovery. They all do, however, have 2 GCDs with no MP cost, 1 being ST nuke and the other is weak ST GCD heal like Cure I or Benefic I.

If I as a healer spam strong heals like Cure II or any AoE GCD healing in PVP, my MP would run out in a moments notice. I can't even spam "Dot"(Combust, Dia...etc, but they are not acutally DoT. They are debuffs with various effect based on jobs)

I have to weight my choice in every moment of the fight. Spamming Dia is effective to help get confirmed kills, but it makes me run out of MP very quicky. As I get more experience, I often cast Glare instead to deal as much damage as possible while saving MP, then I use Dia when I know the enemey will soon be out of my range.

When trading and poking happen a lot, I can't spam Adlo, Cure II or any AoE healing to my hearts content. I have to make choice between using weak GCD heals with no MP costs, or spend 10% of my MP for 1 big heal. I even have different strategies for mp management in different modes such as Feast and Frontlines.

Although fights are unpredictable and my examples do not apply in every situation in every mode, I find managing MP in PVP is quite a thrilling experience.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I think PVP makes mp management quite interesting for healers. At least I often think of PVP when talking about MP management.

In PVP, healers have no Lucid Dreaming, nor any other tools for MP recovery. They all do, however, have 2 GCDs with no MP cost, 1 being ST nuke and the other is weak ST GCD heal like Cure I or Benefic I.

If I as a healer spam strong heals like Cure II or any AoE GCD healing in PVP, my MP would run out in a moments notice. I can't even spam "Dot"(Combust, Dia...etc, but they are not acutally DoT. They are debuffs with various effect based on jobs)

I have to weight my choice in every moment of the fight. Spamming Dia is effective to help get confirmed kills, but it makes me run out of MP very quicky. As I get more experience, I often cast Glare instead to deal as much damage as possible while saving MP, then I use Dia when I know the enemey will soon be out of my range.

When trading and poking happen a lot, I can't spam Adlo, Cure II or any AoE healing to my hearts content. I have to make choice between using weak GCD heals with no MP costs, or spend 10% of my MP for 1 big heal.

Although fights are unpredictable and my examples do not apply in every situation in every mode, I find managing MP in PVP is quite a thrilling experience.

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Interesting. I don't have experience there because I hate PVP in MMOs as a rule. I generally object to requests for "MP management" in PVE because they usually come in like "just give us fewer MP recovery tools", because all that does (as Heavensward and current White Mage can attest) is either force the player to meld a boring dead punishment stat like Piety or just watch their mana bar drain as a consequence of trying to play skillfully. And by skillfully of course, I mean spending as little time as possible standing around twiddling their thumbs. ABC and all that.

I feel like PVP healers are ironically better designed in a way. Here are a few differences regardless of being better or worse

PvP GCD nuke had 1.5s cast time before it was added to PvE content.
Dia actually applies a 10% Damage buff with no DoT so it actually works like it does in offline FF JRPG's
Afflatus Abilities apply regen effects while still being as strong as Cure II and Medica
Afflatus Misery is a 50% DPS loss which is worse than the PvE counterpart but in PvP you have no rez so keeping party members alive takes absolute priority.
Lillies also build up faster, i cant say if it's every 15 or 20s but it feels twice as fast
Tetra actually has 2 charges
Temperance is also increasing Damage dealt by 20%

GCD attacks and Heals build up Fey Gauge
Biolosys reduces enemy healing potency by 10%
Lustrate and indom are on 3 charges (there is no aetherflow)
Focalization gives a proper healing action buff for self and all party members (regardless if spell or ability)
Dissipation increases DAmage dealth and HP restored by 25% while reducing lustrate and indom Recast timers by 15s, costs 50 fey gauge.

Benefic & Helios change to their aspected counterparts while under neutral sect
Neutral sect reduces spell cast time and recast time by 10%
Malefic grants "abridged" when cast with cast time, the next spell has no cast time (yes AST has dual cast in PvP)
Combust reduces enemy healing potency and Damage dealt by 10%
Gravity is a GCD with OGCD cooldown of 30s seconds, deals same damage as MAlefic however potency increases the higher Enemy HP are (yes a reverse ED)
Celestial Opposition removes enemy Regen and barrier effects while applying some to your party
Minor arcana draws either lord or lady, Does not have a separate play button.
Lord increases damage dealt by 20%
Lady reduces damage taken by 20%
Divination does both but only at 10% and to all party members

E. Dosis lengthens Enemy cast time and recast time by 10%
Pneuma Damage increases depending on proximity
Sage keeps Addersgall but not Addersting systems

I like MP management. Would be cool to have it back. Coordinating raises in a raid is fun.

Can't have the best mp economy in the game if you never use cards. :P

I've seen an AST that used draw twice in an entire raid. Having a reward for high skill/weaving is not a problem imo. That being said it's interesting seeing all the commentary on MP economy here as two of my cohealers play WHM and have no problems with it.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

Can't have the best mp economy in the game if you never use cards. :P

I've seen an AST that used draw twice in an entire raid. Having a reward for high skill/weaving is not a problem imo. That being said it's interesting seeing all the commentary on MP economy here as two of my cohealers play WHM and have no problems with it.

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Player skill is a factor. Bad healers will suffer from MP issues more so than Good healers but in an even playing field, you can see that WHM in the long term will struggle with MP before any other healer, which is problematic for some longer fights, like Ultimates. If we're only going to give a passing glance at everything, then every class is "fine" but looking at them logistically, you can see the cracks for each. WHM is capable of healing the current Savage tier but there is very clearly some issues with the class, specifically in P3S and P4S phase 1 where the heal checks are a bit more severe and WHM does have some issues with them. They can do it sure, but they have to put a much greater effort than the other healers to do so and at the cost of their MP and damage, hence why AST is preferred for those 2 fights because it just flat out negates the mechanics that WHM struggles with, with no issue in regards to its MP or Damage.

WHM needs help in some way, although nerfing AST isn't really the way to do so.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

That being said it's interesting seeing all the commentary on MP economy here as two of my cohealers play WHM and have no problems with it.

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Then they probably have low uptime. If your cast uptime is only 60-80%, then you're obviously using less mana than someone casting 100% of the time. It also depends on how much Piety you stack and what content you're running.

On long raid fights with no downtime at min Piety, WHM will empty on mana just by spamming Glare. The other healers do not have this issue.