DoRK and Materia: is Tenacity a Good Friend?

Hey there forum folks. I'm not here to /box the dead chocobo about how DRK is a fair bit squishy. Even rotating defensives around TNB's cooldown during dungeon pulls as I try to always have something up that's mitigating damage, my health still ping-pongs to such a degree that always has me wondering if I'm the problem. My brain is only partially smooth, and there's a wrinkle or two up there--so I hope I slightly what I'm doing.

I don't remember feeling this squishy in Shadowbringers--yet, by the time I got to 'end game' in ShB, it was in the, "We're all waiting for Endwalker to release"; so Exiarch gear and such was out and about. I'm curious if the disparity we're feeling as DoRKs is due in some part to gear--and how we might remember we 'used to be' (especially when we compare to a Warrior, etc).

To that particular end, I'm curious about Tenacity as a stat here in Endwalker. As a materia, is this something that should be our focus? Where it might not be a stat priority for other tanks, I'm curious if it would help fill in that gap? I don't know what the thresholds are, or softcaps (if there are any)--though I suspect people far smarter than I have plotted and charted it all out, and would have waved a proverbial banner our way were it so.

So, is Tenacity and DRK like peanut butter and jelly? Are they oil and water? Is Tenacity as a stat in terms of defensive mitigation not worth it per point, when compared to a more DPS focused stat (Crit., Determination, etc); in that the faster something dies, the fewer attacks it can do, so the less damage taken and so on?

I meld Tenacity personally, but I always have since it was parry. The DPS gap will grow over the course of the expansion as crit values inevitably get nutty, but right now versus a traditional BiS set/meld focusing tencacity will cost you like 2.5% DPS but you'll take 9% less damage.

Tenacity is only good on Warrior when Crit/Det is filled to their stat cap for melding.

There's no reason otherwise to add the stat.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Tenacity is only good on Warrior when Crit/Det is filled to their stat cap for melding.

There's no reason otherwise to add the stat.

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Well, not necessarily. Warriors are going heavily into Tenacity right now because it does enhance 3 things, of which warriors need a lot of. It does increase damage, just negligibly so, but at least it does something offensively. It also reduces damage taken, which is something all tanks do, and it also does increase healing taken (not done, meaning all sources including self, so this can also get bigger SCH and SGE shields) and warriors have a ton of self healing. There's a decent chunk of tenacity in warrior BiS right now.

DRK, however, benefits greater from a comfortable skill speed and a lot of crit and direct hit, so I'd say only go tenacity if you also play a decent amount of warrior. It won't be optimal on DRK, but that doesn't make it necessarily bad, but it will be BiS for your warrior. DRK does have the least healing though, only souleater, so it won't help DRK nearly as much as it does the other tanks. Very bottom priority for DRK.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Well, not necessarily. Warriors are going heavily into Tenacity right now because it does enhance 3 things, of which warriors need a lot of. It does increase damage, just negligibly so, but at least it does something offensively.

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Doesn't need, only filling the gaps of capped Crit/Det, Direct Hit has always been useless to Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

It also reduces damage taken, which is something all tanks do, and it also does increase healing taken (not done, meaning all sources including self, so this can also get bigger SCH and SGE shields) and warriors have a ton of self healing.

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There's no value to this, the Tenacity % will hardly increase the shield numbers to be worth it, Healers have so much O-GCDs it is ultra pointless, DPS will always be a dominant force.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

There's a decent chunk of tenacity in warrior BiS right now.

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Like I said, Det/Crit filled, Tenacity fills the next gap if Skill Speed is optimal choice set.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

DRK, however, benefits greater from a comfortable skill speed and a lot of crit and direct hit, so I'd say only go tenacity if you also play a decent amount of warrior. It won't be optimal on DRK, but that doesn't make it necessarily bad, but it will be BiS for your warrior. DRK does have the least healing though, only souleater, so it won't help DRK nearly as much as it does the other tanks. Very bottom priority for DRK.

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It's not about say, it's optimal stat values, Tenacity has always grossly been a weak stat and has never made it's place in anything than filler for Warrior, Savage, Ultimates still didn't warrant it.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

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All I'm going to say is if this were true the other tanks BiS would be the same. GNB replaces those Tenacity materia with DH materia, for example. (But yes, the shield amount is negligible, was just a technicality, I should have been more clear.)

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

All I'm going to say is if this were true the other tanks BiS would be the same. GNB replaces those Tenacity materia with DH materia, for example.

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The reason that the other tanks don't share BiS with Warrior has nothing to do with Tenacity at all. It is entirely because of Warrior's inability to capitalize on Direct Hit as a stat, due to their guaranteed Critical-Direct Hits on their most powerful attacks. A function which is noticeably lacking on the other tanks who are all quite capable of benefitting from Direct Hit melds. Tenacity is only melded on any tank when there is nothing else to meld or it allows for fewer wasted substat points. This fact in conjunction with the lack of Direct Hit on tank gear means that the non-Warrior tanks will use Direct Hit Melds in almost every slot that doesn't need to be used for Crit or Skill Speed.

So to answer the thread's original question, no tenacity is not useful. Even for Dark Knight. If you stack as much Tenacity as you can you get an extra 5% mitigation at most, and a very negligible increase to healing received. You are much better off stacking Crit, and on non-Warrior Tanks, stack Direct Hit after you reach your optimal GCD tier. This will allow you to do more damage in order to kill enemies faster, which means they are hitting you for a shorter period of time. Damage is much more effective mitigation than Tenacity, doubly so in normal content.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

The reason that the other tanks don't share BiS with Warrior has nothing to do with Tenacity at all. It is entirely because of Warrior's inability to capitalize on Direct Hit as a stat, due to their guaranteed Critical-Direct Hits on their most powerful attacks. A function which is noticeably lacking on the other tanks who are all quite capable of benefitting from Direct Hit melds. Tenacity is only melded on any tank when there is nothing else to meld or it allows for fewer wasted substat points. This fact in conjunction with the lack of Direct Hit on tank gear means that the non-Warrior tanks will use Direct Hit Melds in almost every slot that doesn't need to be used for Crit or Skill Speed.

So to answer the thread's original question, no tenacity is not useful. Even for Dark Knight. If you stack as much Tenacity as you can you get an extra 5% mitigation at most, and a very negligible increase to healing received. You are much better off stacking Crit, and on non-Warrior Tanks, stack Direct Hit after you reach your optimal GCD tier. This will allow you to do more damage in order to kill enemies faster, which means they are hitting you for a shorter period of time. Damage is much more effective mitigation than Tenacity, doubly so in normal content.

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I literally agreed with all of this. I even said it would be optimal on Warrior and it would do less than every other meld, but I'm also not going to act like it does nothing for you. He asked if it did anything, not what others should tell him to meld. If he wants Tenacity, just tell him the pros and cons and move on. People tend to angrily agree with me, I don't know why.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

DRK, however, benefits greater from a comfortable skill speed and a lot of crit and direct hit, so I'd say only go tenacity if you also play a decent amount of warrior. It won't be optimal on DRK, but that doesn't make it necessarily bad, but it will be BiS for your warrior. DRK does have the least healing though, only souleater, so it won't help DRK nearly as much as it does the other tanks. Very bottom priority for DRK.

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Originally Posted by Weetzlo

I meld Tenacity personally, but I always have since it was parry. The DPS gap will grow over the course of the expansion as crit values inevitably get nutty, but right now versus a traditional BiS set/meld focusing tencacity will cost you like 2.5% DPS but you'll take 9% less damage.

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Same reason I meld Tenacity.

Especially early in an expansion when you don't know the type of healer you're going to get.

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Originally Posted by Weetzlo

I meld Tenacity personally, but I always have since it was parry. The DPS gap will grow over the course of the expansion as crit values inevitably get nutty, but right now versus a traditional BiS set/meld focusing tencacity will cost you like 2.5% DPS but you'll take 9% less damage.

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This is basically what it does.

From a point of view of DRK.

The issue with doing this is that where 9% less Damage will help you will be rare whereas the 2.5% DPS (and healing) will help you ALL the time.

You could argue it could help you in casual content like dungeons or Normal raids or if you're struggling to use your mitigation well or you have a healer 8 beers in. That said, if you only doing casual content and you like the playstyle of Ten.. who cares, go for it you'll probably be outperforming other casuals if you're actually putting materia into your gear.

If you take that stuff to higher-end stuff it's just a handicap pure and simple, you and the heals should do their job correctly and all tanks have enough mitigation. With Ten you're just shifting your DPS on to others to do which will result in you failing content more.

If your next meld will take you in the next tier on tent (only) then yes if not no