Is SCH + AST the meta?

I was curious on the world first savage race, and checking through most of the contender streams, they run SCH + AST combo.

Some don't stream so i don't know their healer combo, but it seems odd that SGE is missing, is it due to recovery issues?

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

I was curious on the world first savage race, and checking through most of the contender streams, they run SCH + AST combo.

Some don't stream so i don't know their healer combo, but it seems odd that SGE is missing, is it due to recovery issues?

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Possible reasons:
1.) Expedient is REALLY strong, making SCH a tad more versatile in different utility than SGE. This does not mean SGE is weak, just that SCH has something those groups prefer.
2.) More players are more experienced playing SCH than SGE due to SGE being newer. It may also be that they simply prefer playing Scholar.
3.) AST damage buffs + SCH critical up from Chain Stratagem to increase raid dps further.
4.) Maybe they didn't bother with Sage yet.

Sage really isn't bad for healing / shielding / mitigation, it has a pretty good amount of it. It is just that it is a bit more like it is like what WHM is to AST but to SCH instead.

I think most people who are trying to prog at that level and have been playing for hours on end today are more than likely just playing what they're comfortable with and have a lot of experience on, and SCH+AST was "meta" most of ShB.

Well, I did ask some of the streamers why they picked SCH over SGE for the barrier healer, and they said a few reasons:

1. Expedient for helping with mechanics (lots of movement)

2. Better recovery, can pop Dissipation to get 3 AF instantly instead of waiting for Adersgall.

3. Emergency Tactics more useful in prog than Pepsis.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

I was curious on the world first savage race, and checking through most of the contender streams, they run SCH + AST combo.

Some don't stream so i don't know their healer combo, but it seems odd that SGE is missing, is it due to recovery issues?

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Some groups are running sage. One is running SGE+SCH which is particularly interesting, and has the potential to become the meta due to its high performance in high end content until now.

But it's too early to say what the meta is yet. Things are still settling. Once groups are through the content and start optimizing kills week to week, then the meta will take shape.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Some groups are running sage. One is running SGE+SCH which is particularly interesting, and has the potential to become the meta due to its high performance in high end content until now.

But it's too early to say what the meta is yet. Things are still settling. Once groups are through the content and start optimizing kills week to week, then the meta will take shape.

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SCH SGE is an unorthodox comp that I kind of half-predicted to happen, similar to how SCH ASTnoct was viable even if unnecessary. But now that Sage isn't like Astro and can just choose to go regen, a double shield comp is very much a viable thing - especially since you don't need to actually use Galvanize / Eukrasia shields to justify playing them. Or you could alternate between them, depending who has Indom / Ixochole ready or who has the edge in MP economy.

Really happy to see more unorthodox comps entering the game.

I am not shocked in the slightest that WHM is, yet again, for the fourth expansion in a row, so horrible that calling it "competitive" with the others is cackle-worthy.

I'd imagine Sage vs SCH is mainly preference. Sage is still a solid pick. We're still in the prog phase though, which is a whole different game to when the fights are on farm.

AST is an easy pick because one pure healer is good for early prog, so why not take the pure healer that brings raid mitigation, tons of oGCD's and strong GCD heals. SGE/SCH comps might pick up later, but AST will likely never be a bad choice.

Apparently there's a 4th healer too, but we don't talk about that...

I'm impressed at how bad whm is lol, so much for the "prog healer."

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Originally Posted by Acece

I'm impressed at how bad whm is lol, so much for the "prog healer."

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Yeah but those free rezzes are super helpful. It doesn't matter that we can't meet enrage due to all the deaths because I have a free rez /s

To all the morons that said Thin Air changes were good because Free Rez, use your Free rez to revive my WHM because that dude is beyond salvation.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Yeah but those free rezzes are super helpful. It doesn't matter that we can't meet enrage due to all the deaths because I have a free rez /s

To all the morons that said Thin Air changes were good because Free Rez, use your Free rez to revive my WHM because that dude is beyond salvation.

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the funniest thing is astros mp economy is so busted, that even if it raises once a minute it has more mp than a whm that used thin air.

im literally progging savage with 0 piety on ast and i have never felt like im dry for mp, even after dying

Hardly surprising, SCH is great for prog. Sage will probably be better for speed kills, but I'm not excluding SGE+SCH being meta for those.

SCH is slightly better than SGE for prog. If you want regular shields when going into mechanics blind, SCH will have better MP management and give you a slight edge. They also have a party sprint. That slight edge is really important for world prog. It's not much. I'd say it gives you an edge on a handful of pulls, but yeah.
SCH+SGE will probably be metta past that.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

I was curious on the world first savage race, and checking through most of the contender streams, they run SCH + AST combo.

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Could literally just be because that's what those two players worked on first...

I would be very wary of shaping an entire meta off of the choices of two players. This isn't WoW, were we let one guy named Max dictate the entire idea of what classes are worth playing...

SCH for all the memes, is one hell of a versatile healer. Definitely the most versatile of the four. Not to forget that for a barrier healer they have the biggest GCD heal in the game, the only MAJOR group movement increase speed in the game, the strongest singe target HoT in the game, the strongest group shield in the game, the most mobile healer for damage, on top of all that, they are the only healer that can guarentee a 100% tank buster wont kill a tank(not likely to happen mind), even without using a shield.

SCH is a beast of a healer, but that doesn't mean it is perfect, it has some hilariously stupid problems too.

You know what isn’t meta and will never be meta WHM, sad WHM noises.

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Originally Posted by jadeblade

You know what isn’t meta and will never be meta WHM, sad WHM noises.

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The curse of being the most popular healer regardless of how bad it is. SE will forever be trying to make the others more attractive and shunt people away from it.

I think they're all pretty balanced, they each have their advantage and disadvantage and people should just play what they are more comfortable and have fun with!

I think we're really lucky that it's like this because Tanks and DPS are not, so we should really cherish this freedom to play our favorite

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Originally Posted by lisaa

I think they're all pretty balanced, they each have their advantage and disadvantage and people should just play what they are more comfortable and have fun with!

I think we're really lucky that it's like this because Tanks and DPS are not, so we should really cherish this freedom to play our favorite

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https://c.tenor.com/PG7TQGmTPoMAAAAd...-spiderman.gif

Balanced? Really?
See P3S WHM vs AST.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

https://c.tenor.com/PG7TQGmTPoMAAAAd...-spiderman.gif

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It just isn't funny how bad WHM is and they don't even have that "but I can do lots of dps" edge anymore, SCH and SGE beat them up and took their blood Lily gil.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Balanced? Really?
See P3S WHM vs AST.

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Okay AST is better in p3 but you can’t judge balance just because of one mechanic. I progged on WHM until that mech and felt really comfortable. It’s not like if I was on AST we would’ve known to macrocosmos it the first time

After switching to AST I really suffered in p4p1, there is just so much to think about that I just couldn’t keep up held us back a lot. Well maybe I’m just bad and using the job as an excuse. It turned out okay in phase 2 but still I wonder if we would’ve been faster if I had stayed on WHM. But ultimately I have more fun on ast so I don’t regret it.

Anyway I just think we’re so lucky to be able to play basically any comp, even double shield. Meanwhile PLD and SMN are very weak, and phys ranged can only play BRD. And melees have some variety because comfort matters, but having RPR or MNK helps so much. Healers are really lucky and we shouldn’t ruin it by mistaking people into thinking they have to play this or that.

ast and sch offers party buffs, the other healers don't really bring much to the party.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

I think they're all pretty balanced, they each have their advantage and disadvantage and people should just play what they are more comfortable and have fun with!

I think we're really lucky that it's like this because Tanks and DPS are not, so we should really cherish this freedom to play our favorite

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

https://c.tenor.com/PG7TQGmTPoMAAAAd...-spiderman.gif

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

It just isn't funny how bad WHM is and they don't even have that "but I can do lots of dps" edge anymore, SCH and SGE beat them up and took their blood Lily gil.

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https://i.imgur.com/Lgdc4LD.png

WHM & SGE numbers are up now that its being optimized and speed run.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/44/#boss=82

Good see to more balance representation in the 4 healers.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

WHM & SGE numbers are up now that its being optimized and speed run.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/44/#boss=82

Good see to more balance representation in the 4 healers.

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Kind of interesting to see how it flips from boss to boss - Sage is popular for lower bosses but not higher ones, at least not right now. I think this means we'll see Sage become the farm/speed kill healer as gear improves. Astro, meanwhile, is popular at both ends.

So, perhaps sge + ast is what it will settle on long term.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

Okay AST is better in p3 but you can’t judge balance just because of one mechanic. I progged on WHM until that mech and felt really comfortable. It’s not like if I was on AST we would’ve known to macrocosmos it the first time

After switching to AST I really suffered in p4p1, there is just so much to think about that I just couldn’t keep up held us back a lot. Well maybe I’m just bad and using the job as an excuse. It turned out okay in phase 2 but still I wonder if we would’ve been faster if I had stayed on WHM. But ultimately I have more fun on ast so I don’t regret it.

Anyway I just think we’re so lucky to be able to play basically any comp, even double shield. Meanwhile PLD and SMN are very weak, and phys ranged can only play BRD. And melees have some variety because comfort matters, but having RPR or MNK helps so much. Healers are really lucky and we shouldn’t ruin it by mistaking people into thinking they have to play this or that.

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saying that is basically ignoring reality right now in a hard way, almost delusional really.

right now the hard facts are:

1) ast has more and better mp regen tools then whm - white mage literally has no means to recover mp better then ast in any sort of way: lucid dream is shared, thin air dont replenish mp just save it while ast has astrodyn which is a second lucid exclusive to him, draw replenish same mp as assize only every 30 second while assize every 45s.(not including many free mp ogcd to use instead of gcd heals unlike whm)

2) ast and sage keep their gauges after death, sage can regenerate while being dead and whm cannot.(also whm charge every 30s and sage every20s)

3) ast mp spells cost less then whm and even cast faster then whm.

4) ast macrocosmoss is a tool that can be used for any situation(dungeons, trials, raids...) in any given time to its max usage, while whm lilybell can only be used on 15s multi hit waves that include hitting whm making it super niche and exclusive to only useable in specific moments that hardly happen in normal content and much more macrocosmos can be triggered manually while lilybell cannot.

5) whm lilies and blood lily were never adjusted to changes of endwalker and the increasae of potency from glare and other spells.

6) whm thin air changes make rez a double weave a must so if u wish to keep gcd going u must double weave but if u don't do that u must clip on every moment u need to rez.

so basically u progg with it and its comfy for u fine but saying whm is fine while the reality is that its a mess and so underperforming is basically denying the truth lisaa and it doesnt matter if u like it right now or not its the undeniable truth.

maybe not a mess but extremely underperforming and his gcd are mp heavy hits to what he can replenish making him less then ideal prog healer no matter how u look at it.

the only thing going for whm against ast is the fact is minor arcana change gave ast such a button bloat its making ast a mess but if it were to change to 1 button maybe along regular draw, it can improve ast drastically making ast better in every form and way both speed runs and progg friendly.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Kind of interesting to see how it flips from boss to boss - Sage is popular for lower bosses but not higher ones, at least not right now. I think this means we'll see Sage become the farm/speed kill healer as gear improves. Astro, meanwhile, is popular at both ends.

So, perhaps sge + ast is what it will settle on long term.

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Try to swap the regions too. Quite funny. (Maybe the amount of data is too low)

But i am unsure what kind of measure points you guys using? Speed of the top 50 groups? I think it still bit to early to make any conclusions about the meta (and maybe what kind of meta? for prog or speed?), but i can expect AST/SCH or SGE/SCH for later. (was quite surprised about the SGE/SCH comp)

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right now the hard facts are:

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I laugh hard man.

Sch has the niche of strong shields, disjointed heals, and a speed boost. Sage has great free healing and mitigation, has excellent damage, and has a great synergy with other healers. Ast has excellent healing, great range cause of earthly star, shields that stack, infinite mp, and white hole mechs don't exist for ast. Meanwhile whm has.... a free raise every min, is easy, and has good damage(I think have not checked individual healer damage.) It's no wonder whm is so bad lol.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

Okay AST is better in p3 but you can’t judge balance just because of one mechanic. I progged on WHM until that mech and felt really comfortable. It’s not like if I was on AST we would’ve known to macrocosmos it the first time

After switching to AST I really suffered in p4p1, there is just so much to think about that I just couldn’t keep up held us back a lot. Well maybe I’m just bad and using the job as an excuse. It turned out okay in phase 2 but still I wonder if we would’ve been faster if I had stayed on WHM. But ultimately I have more fun on ast so I don’t regret it.

Anyway I just think we’re so lucky to be able to play basically any comp, even double shield. Meanwhile PLD and SMN are very weak, and phys ranged can only play BRD. And melees have some variety because comfort matters, but having RPR or MNK helps so much. Healers are really lucky and we shouldn’t ruin it by mistaking people into thinking they have to play this or that.

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We progged on WHM/SCH and once we got to THAT mechanic we simply healer lb3d. Even with me popping temperance, two raptures and a cure 3 I still couldnt get the entire party up in time. Meanwhile AST pops macrocosmos and just boom. :P I was planning to play AST this expansion but after dragging it through the story and the first raids I felt it was too buttonbloated to feel good for me. So went back to WHM, reluctantly since it is so awful at this point. As a reactive healer those are my choices atm - buttonbloated and extremely busy but very powerful OR dumbed down lacking ogcds but still viable.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

https://i.imgur.com/Lgdc4LD.png

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I've tried WHM in all content bar the new savage and I have to say I've never had an MP problem. I think the real problem is healers who don't understand HoTs and override their own Medica IIs with another heal. Your job is to not let people die, it's not to keep everyone at 100% all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I've tried WHM in all content bar the new savage and I have to say I've never had an MP problem. I think the real problem is healers who don't understand HoTs and override their own Medica IIs with another heal. Your job is to not let people die, it's not to keep everyone at 100% all the time.

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MP issues are most prominent with single target DPS. So scenarios where you would never even touch your HoTs or medicas. You just end up depleting your mana doing damage.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I've tried WHM in all content bar the new savage and I have to say I've never had an MP problem. I think the real problem is healers who don't understand HoTs and override their own Medica IIs with another heal. Your job is to not let people die, it's not to keep everyone at 100% all the time.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

MP issues are most prominent with single target DPS. So scenarios where you would never even touch your HoTs or medicas. You just end up depleting your mana doing damage.

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It also means that you can't optimize your gear for DPS.

If you don't optimize your gear for DPS, and/or you don't have high uptime on a boss, you'll never notice WHM's mp economy is negative even with assize, thin air, and lucid.