How can Venat be the previous Azem?

I was debating this one with a friend for a short time, because the timeline of events of Endwalker doesn't seem to match up with what Hythlodaeus tells us in Shadowbringers.

Hythlodaeus (Shadowbringers): The Final Days. What began as isolated incidents soon swelled into a world-spanning threat...

Hythlodaeus (Shadowbringers): The Convocation of Fourteen - well, it was Thirteen at the time - endeavoured to create a will for our star. They would repair the fundamental laws of order and halt the spread of destruction.

The timeline of events as I understand them, however, are:

1. Meteion's influence hits Etheriys, causing the Convocation to begin to wonder how to combat it.
2. The Seat of Azem is created
3. The Final Days hits Amaurot proper
4. Zodiark is summoned
5. Zodiark is about to receive another half of the unsundered ancients
6. Venat steps in, becomes Hydaelyn, and splits the world

If this is the case, and the seat of Azem was created a relatively short time ago, how is it that Venat was the previous Azem? When we meet for (chronologically) the first time on Elpis, Venat seems to be treated as though she were in the position for a lot longer than it should have existed before.

The Convocation only had thirteen members at that time because the current Azem opposed Zodiark's summoning which had them branded as a traitor and removed.

No the seat of Azem was always there, that is confirmed with the side stories.... at those were pre soundering.

They always were 14 - Venat retires and our old self takes the seat for some time, dealing with emet and the others too, as said in the side story - the final days hit - "we" go ??? and dont side with either side and leave, letting our seat empty - they summon Zodiark - Venat gathers followers (maybe already before that) and at a later point she becomes hydaelyn and splits the world.

Yeah, the seat of Azem has existed just as long as the others, it seems you misunderstood what Hythlodaeus meant when he said the Convocation was only 13 members right before the Final Days reached Amaurot, it was because the unsundered WoL (the most recent Azem) had left the Convocation, 14 was always the standard number.

And the second round of unsundered sacrifices (in order to rejuvenate the life of the planet) still occurred too.

That makes more sense. Was Azem kicked out, or did they quit?

And I didnt realize the second round of sacrifices went ahead too. So it was a third round of sacrifices that Venat opposed?

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Originally Posted by arrowrl201

That makes more sense. Was Azem kicked out, or did they quit?

And I didnt realize the second round of sacrifices went ahead too. So it was a third round of sacrifices that Venat opposed?

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yes it was the third, the non ancient sacrifice.

Yes. The first one summoned Zodiark and stopped the final days, the 2nd revitalized the planet, the third should have been reviving the dead using the new life...? The cutscenes we got contradict there, the one with venat during our travel back to the present made no sence... as that sacrifices wasnt due until years, or even centuries later as they'd have to wait for the new lifes to grow. And we were told they intended to sacrifice "a part of the new life to restore the lost ones" - theres a line between genocide and taking a part.

Azem left as she opposed Zodiark, we dont know if she was officialy fired, just not yet replaced or if they literally went "f this we dont need her!" and went ahead with their plans...

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Originally Posted by arrowrl201

That makes more sense. Was Azem kicked out, or did they quit?

And I didnt realize the second round of sacrifices went ahead too. So it was a third round of sacrifices that Venat opposed?

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Azem left because they disagreed with the Zodiark summoning plan in general, but they also didn't join Venat's group either.

And as was explained in ShadowBringers, there was a plan to "cultivate" future life to sacrifice to bring back the Ancients who had sacrificed themselves in the first two rounds of sacrifice to Zodiark.

Here's what Hythlodaeus' shade explained to us in ShadowBringers

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus;

The Convocation of Fourteen─well, it was Thirteen at the time─endeavored to create a will for our star. They would repair the fundamental laws of order and halt the spread of destruction.

But creation on such a scale required an immense source of power...

Of those of us who still lived, nearly half offered up their lives in the name of salvation.

And from their sacrifice, Zodiark was born. Just as we had hoped, He reached forth and halted the march of oblivion.

...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow.

Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish.

The cycle of life had begun anew, and we reconsidered the means by which we might protect it.

The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark...

In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards.

There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born.

These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief. And for the first time in history, our people stood divided... Know you, then, how this conflict ended?

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Then in Endwalker we also found out that Venat/Hydaelyn also had an additional motivation for the sundering, which was was to also thin the aetheric density of the denizens of Etheirys so they could more readily interact with Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Yes. The first one summoned Zodiark and stopped the final days, the 2nd revitalized the planet, the third should have been reviving the dead using the new life...? The cutscenes we got contradict there, the one with venat during our travel back to the present made no sence... as that sacrifices wasnt due until years, or even centuries later as they'd have to wait for the new lifes to grow. And we were told they intended to sacrifice "a part of the new life to restore the lost ones" - theres a line between genocide and taking a part.

Azem left as she opposed Zodiark, we dont know if she was officialy fired, just not yet replaced or if they literally went "f this we dont need her!" and went ahead with their plans...

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You have to remember that the cutscene with Venat/Hydaelyn that plays after the Elpis zone is completed is metaphorical and not a literal representation of the chronological events.
As evidenced by the fact that the Final Days was still ongoing (as the sky is depicted in the cutscene) despite Zodiark having already been summoned. It was a condensed depiction of all the major events, not a literal play-by-play. And then last scene with Venat forging on and getting covered in shadow/darkness was an even further abstraction/metaphor of how the later 7 rejoinings weakened her even further.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

Azem left because they disagreed with the Zodiark summoning plan in general, but they also didn't join Venat's group either.

And as was explained in ShadowBringers, there was a plan to "cultivate" future life to sacrifice to bring back the Ancients who had sacrificed themselves in the first two rounds of sacrifice to Zodiark.

Here's what Hythlodaeus' shade explained to us in ShadowBringers


Then in Endwalker we also found out that Venat/Hydaelyn also had an additional motivation for the sundering, which was was to also thin the aetheric density of the denizens of Etheirys so they could more readily interact with Dynamis.


You have to remember that the cutscene with Venat/Hydaelyn that plays after the Elpis zone is completed is metaphorical and not a literal representation of the chronological events.
As evidenced by the fact that the Final Days are still ongoing despite Zodiark having already been summoned. It was a condensed depiction of all the major events, not a literal play-by-play.

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plus emet and hythol arguing while a man gets eaten.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

You have to remember that the cutscene with Venat/Hydaelyn that plays after the Elpis zone is completed is metaphorical and not a literal representation of the chronological events.
As evidenced by the fact that the Final Days was still ongoing (as evidenced by the sky) despite Zodiark having already been summoned. It was a condensed depiction of all the major events, not a literal play-by-play. And then last scene with Venat forging on and getting covered in shadow/darkness was an even further abstraction/metaphor of how the later 7 rejoinings weakened her even further.

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But thats exaclty why i dislike it a lot... it paints venat in a way too good light, adds drama... she wasnt alone for the most part - and as we literally saw on zodiark she should not be alone at all as the souls of her followers should be well inside her primal form.

It paints the others as maniacs that would kill everyone and themselfs only to restore the old glory, while in fact the plan was to take a part of the ne life to restore the souls in zodiark. While not ok, its still a bitter taste to show em like that...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

But thats exaclty why i dislike it a lot... it paints venat in a way too good light, adds drama... she wasnt alone for the most part - and as we literally saw on zodiark she should not be alone at all as the souls of her followers should be well inside her primal form.

It paints the others as maniacs that would kill everyone and themselfs only to restore the old glory, while in fact the plan was to take a part of the ne life to restore the souls in zodiark. While not ok, its still a bitter taste to show em like that...

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How does it paint her in a good light? She was simply gambling, she had no idea if her plan would even work, its the entire reason she comes up with the escape plan in case it all goes south and the sundering didn't make us capable enough. Do we need to see her more with her followers? Is that really important? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

But thats exaclty why i dislike it a lot... it paints venat in a way too good light, adds drama... she wasnt alone for the most part - and as we literally saw on zodiark she should not be alone at all as the souls of her followers should be well inside her primal form.

It paints the others as maniacs that would kill everyone and themselfs only to restore the old glory, while in fact the plan was to take a part of the ne life to restore the souls in zodiark. While not ok, its still a bitter taste to show em like that...

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Well, whether or not you like the cutscene is irrelevant to the fact that the cutscene is supposed to be a metaphor/abstraction of the events, and not a literal depiction of the chronological events.

Also the cutscenes weren’t showing the other Ancients as wanting to sacrifice everything for the restoration of their “paradise”, the amount being sacrificed is never specified in the cutscene at all. The main point of that part of the cutscenes was to emphasize that the plan/mentality to sacrifice future lives for past lives was unacceptable.
In other words sacrificing the “future” for the “past” was the key point, which Emet-Selch basically reiterates (of why they fought and why he lost) right before he and Hythlodaeus return to the Lifestream/Aetherial Sea after the Scions were restored during the climax of Endwalker.

The "Universal Aether Farm for Zodiark" plan is actually a bit contentious with what we learned in Endwalker. The scene showing the Sundering, even if not taken literally, shows Venat doing so to stop her fellows from committing suicide in Zodiark's name, not declaring their intent to cultivate life to sacrifice. They had given up on the future and only sought solace in the "perfect paradise" of the past, regardless of the price that had to be paid to achieve that.

"But the past we loved is not the future you seek. That is why we fought. And why I lost." So sayeth Emet-Selch, even if he refuses to compromise his ideals.

Anyway, in regards to Hydaelyn, well... there were fewer souls making her up, and she still had her original "heart" (e.g. Venat). Zodiark has many souls within him but without a guiding will he's just a creature of instinct, which is why Danny Boy hijacks him to fight us.

In response to OP's question... the seat of Azem existed long before the Final Days. Venat was the previous Azem and "our" Azem's mentor, who left the seat but did not return to the star (or less euphemistically, commit ritual suicide) until we defeated her as Hydaelyn deep within the Aetherial Sea. "Our" Azem rejected the proposition to summon Zodiark and defected from the Convocation. (Neither did they accept summoning Hydaelyn, though that's a bit of a digression.)

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

plus emet and hythol arguing while a man gets eaten.

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That's definitely fishy for Hythlodaeus, but I can see Emet doing exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

That's definitely fishy for Hythlodaeus, but I can see Emet doing exactly that.

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he'll just snark about how the guys getting eaten too loudly and tell the monster to chew with his mouth closed.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The "Universal Aether Farm for Zodiark" plan is actually a bit contentious with what we learned in Endwalker. The scene showing the Sundering, even if not taken literally, shows Venat doing so to stop her fellows from committing suicide in Zodiark's name, not declaring their intent to cultivate life to sacrifice. They had given up on the future and only sought solace in the "perfect paradise" of the past, regardless of the price that had to be paid to achieve that.

"But the past we loved is not the future you seek. That is why we fought. And why I lost." So sayeth Emet-Selch, even if he refuses to compromise his ideals.

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I think the first part of this untrue. It was the sacrifice of others to bring back those who had summoned and empowered Zodiark that she halted. We know from Anyder, and the cutscene itself that Hydaelyn was brought forth to restrain Zodiark after the second sacrifice, which involved the Ancients sacrificing themselves. As she says:

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Venat: So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn’t wisdom. It is weakness.

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And when describing Zodiarks initial summoning, Venat uses “we” to describe how they had halted, and the pain they suffered afterward. It’s only when she begins to talk of the efforts to restore the star to “the perfect paradise” it supposedly was, that she stops doing so. If the issue was self sacrifice, this wouldn’t make sense. This interpretation, I think, makes more sense.

I agree with the rest of your post however.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No the seat of Azem was always there, that is confirmed with the side stories.... at those were pre soundering.

They always were 14 - Venat retires and our old self takes the seat for some time, dealing with emet and the others too, as said in the side story - the final days hit - "we" go ??? and dont side with either side and leave, letting our seat empty - they summon Zodiark - Venat gathers followers (maybe already before that) and at a later point she becomes hydaelyn and splits the world.

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Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

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I'm guessing Azem knew of the Final Days before it happened as well. Venat probably told them. It would explain how he/she knew that we'd be coming to help Elidibus with Pandaemonium.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

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There's also the fact that we have missing pieces of the puzzle here that may have to do with Azem. We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began. I have a feeling that's going to deal with our next big journey, and possibly with what Azem was doing. Zodiark dealt with the imbalance of aether, Hydaelyn sealed him to prevent more sacrifices and so the imbalance wouldn't return...so what caused the original imbalance, where did it come from?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began.

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That depends whether the writers intend for it to be a separate phenomenon or a strange effect of Meteion's call.

The primary mystery with Azem right now is how they knew to tell Themis to expect us.

That may get entirely resolved within the raid story, and all plotlines regarding the ancients wrapped up within this patch cycle, but we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I'm guessing Azem knew of the Final Days before it happened as well. Venat probably told them. It would explain how he/she knew that we'd be coming to help Elidibus with Pandaemonium.

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Whether told by Venat or not, there does seem to be some evidence Azem knew. Hydaelyn gives you the words of the former crystal bearer and they're awfully on point. And then Azem knows to tell Themis to look for the falling star. I wonder if Azem has some sort of foresight.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Whether told by Venat or not, there does seem to be some evidence Azem knew. Hydaelyn gives you the words of the former crystal bearer and they're awfully on point. And then Azem knows to tell Themis to look for the falling star. I wonder if Azem has some sort of foresight.

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Possibly. I hope that as we start going on new, smaller adventures that they don't drop the Azem story completely. I'd like to learn more about their past and their reasons for being against both Zodiark and Hydalaen, despite possibly having some knowledge of what's to come. Maybe they tried finding a third option and failed? Or has some other, larger plan that we haven't been privy to?

While they said this was the end of the story of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, I doubt that the role the Ancients have to play in the story has ended.

The alliance raids in particular feel like they'll have to touch on them by necessity if we want to learn the truth about the Twelve, given that both Menphina and Azeyma are strongly suggested to have pre-sundering origins.

A bit of a digression - but has it been postulated that the “new life” to be the third Zodiark sacrifice might have been prototypes for the current “non ancient” races?

I have a going theory that the taboo of ancient “shape-changing” was introduced to let the developers use our WOL as the Azem model - and handwave Azem’s non-ancient look as being their chosen form.

Add in the prototypical new races - and we might find out Azem was siding with these newly created races as a third party - rather than with the Venat or Zodiark followers…

The side quests in Elpis spell out rather plainly that some of the beastly races of Etheriys like the Matanga were created by the Ancients, so if not the current races of man, it may have at least been some other form of sentient life.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

A bit of a digression - but has it been postulated that the “new life” to be the third Zodiark sacrifice might have been prototypes for the current “non ancient” races?

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That was pretty much the go-to theory back in Shadowbringers. Now that theory's still around, but there's also the notion that since Ancients mistake us for familiars, then the present-day races may have been familiars back then.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There's also the fact that we have missing pieces of the puzzle here that may have to do with Azem. We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began. I have a feeling that's going to deal with our next big journey, and possibly with what Azem was doing. Zodiark dealt with the imbalance of aether, Hydaelyn sealed him to prevent more sacrifices and so the imbalance wouldn't return...so what caused the original imbalance, where did it come from?

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That has been answered already in Endwalker, the Sound/roar was all but literally stated to be due to Meteion’s Song of Oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That depends whether the writers intend for it to be a separate phenomenon or a strange effect of Meteion's call.

The primary mystery with Azem right now is how they knew to tell Themis to expect us.

That may get entirely resolved within the raid story, and all plotlines regarding the ancients wrapped up within this patch cycle, but we'll have to wait and see.

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I honestly will not be surprised if the Roar is revealed to be caused by the final boss of the 6.0 Raid storyline. This kind of plot will end up resulting in the classic time travel plot of "the roar" was always going to happen even if WoL did not travel back in time to become involved with Pandemonium.

If not then it maybe explained in Season 2 storyline.

Either way, I suspect while Meteion caused the instability in the Ancient's powers that lead to the Final Days, the roar was the cause of their emotional breakdown that lead to them losing control due to paranoia.

However, I suspect there maybe more to the story involving Dynamis to begin with since 6.0 only introduced to us the concept and that there are people researching Dynamis both during Ancient times and current time in the Source but SE did not go into details about what those research involved.

If understanding Dynamis ends up being involved as a key factor for Season 2 then we should expect that there could be a civilization in the unknown regions that have a better understanding of Dynamis as well. After all Emet did warn us in advance the civilizations beyond Eorzea and the regions we have gone to that are located in the Unknown regions may surprise us with how they developed both technology, magic, and theme wise.

There could even more more technology based civilizations in the unknown regions thus we may get a actual modern day civilization or future tech theme civilization that is located in the unknown regions along with the expect more pure magic based civilizations as well.

After all, Season 1 only covered Eorzea and locations that do make contact with Eorzea which is only 25% to 40% of the planet. We still got 75% to 60% of the planet left unexplored and we know Season 2 is about exploring those unknown regions as Emet spoiled to us.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

That has been answered already in Endwalker, the Sound/roar was all but literally stated to be due to Meteion’s Song of Oblivion.

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Yeah, the 'sound beneath the earth' was sort of a symptom of the Ancients not really having means to interact with dynamis. Because they had no real grasp on what was happening, and had something of a geocentric, overly-rational worldview, the first thing to go wrong got misconstrued as the cause. It's a bit like if your car broke down, and you blamed it on the smoke that started coming out of the engine before it stopped.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began.

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I thought that sound was Meteion's song?

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Originally Posted by DaBigDorf

I thought that sound was Meteion's song?

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We have no idea what the Sound actually was. Meteion's "song" was just a blast of invisible intangible energy from space, that doesn't explain why there would be a horrible screech coming from inside the planet.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

We have no idea what the Sound actually was. Meteion's "song" was just a blast of invisible intangible energy from space, that doesn't explain why there would be a horrible screech coming from inside the planet.

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I mean we do have an event we know of to draw parallels to, it doesn't mean they are similar/the same but they could be, when it comes to Thavnair. It is said that when Khalzahl became Svarbhanu in Radz-at-han that he let out a terrible sound, one that presumably could also have something to do with the ancients, if no one was left alive who saw the creation of the initial corrupted creation magic creature then those nearby who only hear the roar would think that the source. Or that might not be the case, but it is interesting to think about.