PLD - Blade of Valor DoT should stack with Goring Blade.

I don't understand why SE decided to do this. Currently PLD is the weakest tank in the game (don't pull the "utility" card because it's not true). Why did they decide to not let us have two DoT's going at once? Because of the new Blade of Valor skill, it screws up our physical DPS rotation and now it's weaker since we can only do 1 Goring Blade during the FoF window instead of 2.

I'm getting real tired of SE always treating us PLD like crap for no reason. They need to change this.

A dead character doesn't do DPS.
Paladin is unkillable.
Henceforth its dps is infinite.
If you want bigger number go play a melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

A dead character doesn't do DPS.
Paladin is unkillable.
Henceforth its dps is infinite.
If you want bigger number go play a melee dps.

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This is such a dumb reply and I don't even know how to respond.

The problem is blade of valor is magical DOT. So they should either remove the DOT and have AOE flat potency burst damage at the end. Or they should increase the potency from the DOT to match or exceed Goring blade during FoF.

Either way PLD needs help and maybe tuesday's patch will help.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The problem is blade of valor is magical DOT. So they should either remove the DOT and have AOE flat potency burst damage at the end. Or they should increase the potency from the DOT to match or exceed Goring blade during FoF.

Either way PLD needs help and maybe tuesday's patch will help.

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A flat potency increase with no DoT would hurt our DPS output if they didn't make Blade of Valor 980 potency (normally 420) since the DoT alone is 560 potency, but if they did do that we would be destroying trash mobs in dungeon pulls. Even if they did raise it's DoT to be the same as Goring Blade under the effects of FoF, it would only increase 1.25 potency per tick. Goring Blade got nerfed this expansion from 85 to 65 a tick (not to mention the combo potency of the attack itself was destroyed from 390 to 250) so FoF only makes it 81.25 potency now. The main issue is that while using FoF, you used to get 2 Goring Blades and 1 Royal Authority combo off. Now when using FoF we can only get 1 Goring and 1 Royal Authority and FoF no longer fits the physical combo like it once did due to having to work around not overwriting the DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

it screws up our physical DPS rotation and now it's weaker since we can only do 1 Goring Blade during the FoF window instead of 2.

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You should still get 2 Goring Blades into the FoF window. Even if you want to use FoF early in the pre-pull, it should be back up before your use of Goring Blade after BoV.

However, have you considered how this would impact the rotation? You imply that you would BoV, then go into GB. You have now set the rotation back 3 GCDs, it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You should still get 2 Goring Blades into the FoF window. Even if you want to use FoF early in the pre-pull, it should be back up before your use of Goring Blade after BoV.

However, have you considered how this would impact the rotation? You imply that you would BoV, then go into GB. You have now set the rotation back 3 GCDs, it makes no sense.

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You can only get 2 Goring Blades off if you either start the fight that way or delay your FoF until after one Royal Authority combo after BoV so you don't overwrite the DoT. This means you will be doing 4 physical rotations between the magic rotation. I've tested this method with the method that SE is making us use on the Training dummy for Ex 2 and I killed the dummy at the exact same time.

SE is the one who messed up the rotation and they need to find a way to fix it. They ruined the physical rotation and it's FoF use in order to make it work with the 3 new attacks they gave us. It's sloppy.

In current content, -16s Pre-pull Fof has been shown to be the strongest rotation for Paladin, but it still struggles to keep up with the general two.

Paladin doesn't need MT buff, it needs more ST buff, up the Valor dot potency to be at least 10-15 potency higher than a fof goring, maybe/or 20-30 potency in the Atonement. I'm not a magician of maths, I am merely suggesting level it with Warrior/Gunbreaker at least, Warriors sustain is far above Paladin, seriously must be drunk if you think Paladin is better.

Hallowed Ground doesn't need 1-2 Min cuts, that's broken, it needs at least 30s reduce to versus it against Bolide, not complaining if it's 6 Mins though, Holmgang is broken now.

Edit: Paladins issue is lack of burst power, never understood why cut Confiteor to 900 when Gunbreaker has a 1200 potency nuke.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

A dead character doesn't do DPS.
Paladin is unkillable.
Henceforth its dps is infinite.
If you want bigger number go play a melee dps.

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You know what dps is right? Damage per second? Total damage divided by the number of seconds a fight takes? It's not a measure that can really be "infinite."

In any case the conversation is obviously about PLD's performance relative to other tanks.

Blade of Valor replaces the Goring Blade that would otherwise follow the Requiescat window. That's why they don't stack; it's fairly obvious.

That said, the DoTs stacking could be interesting, but it would change the rotation.

OMG these trheads, 1st balance patch isnt even out and ppl are already comparing DPSs, yeah PLD DPSs sucks rn, still it has the on of most smooth and straight foward rotation of the game, ez to pick up, and has a nice challenge when you try to take the most of it.

I get that Damage is the META for XIV, still, adding potencies is the easiest thing to fix, and guess what it comes with the balance patch that didnt happened yet.

That said, having both DoTs stacking would be insanely bad for the opening rotation, it wouldnt align properly with party buffs since you would have to cut the FoF opening rotation in the middle to try fit the BoV Dot with the Goring unless the meta now becomes Req opening, but this also would put FoF as buff the will alway be up on the final of the party buffs to fit. "https://ibb.co/B3L0QZn" here's some possible opening, did it on the fly so doesnt have any weaving nor its too much elaborated.

for this to work we would need a rework i supose.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

I don't understand why SE decided to do this. Currently PLD is the weakest tank in the game (don't pull the "utility" card because it's not true).

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boo hoo.
no one cares. Usage numbers say you're wrong, and hard stats trump your feefees any day.
cant cope with no longer having dominance for 2 expansions in a row. cant even read their own tooltips. Blade of Valor is a replacement, aint it? Circle of Scorn is another DoT, so you still have two DoTs, don'tcha?
PLD's been treated good since stormblood, mald some more.

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Originally Posted by NeoDivinity

That said, having both DoTs stacking would be insanely bad for the opening rotation, it wouldnt align properly with party buffs since you would have to cut the FoF opening rotation in the middle to try fit the BoV Dot with the Goring unless the meta now becomes Req opening, but this also would put FoF as buff the will alway be up on the final of the party buffs to fit. "https://ibb.co/B3L0QZn" here's some possible opening, did it on the fly so doesnt have any weaving nor its too much elaborated.

for this to work we would need a rework i supose.

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I do agree for the overall rotation having them not stack works perfectly fine, but if the meta is a -16s pre-pull solution just to let your damage buff cooldown tick down, I think the opener is precisely the problem currently.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I do agree for the overall rotation having them not stack works perfectly fine, but if the meta is a -16s pre-pull solution just to let your damage buff cooldown tick down, I think the opener is precisely the problem currently.

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100% agree it sucks, but thats also is happening due to both ex fight having really wierd timing for add/ downtime phases, also that only if youre pushing to 95%+, i managed to get 90% on Trial 1 using the standard FoF opening. Right now its a good time for feedback but asking for entire reworks on how the jobs function dont make much sense.

Hmm maybe you're right

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

boo hoo.
no one cares. Usage numbers say you're wrong, and hard stats trump your feefees any day.
cant cope with no longer having dominance for 2 expansions in a row. cant even read their own tooltips. Blade of Valor is a replacement, aint it? Circle of Scorn is another DoT, so you still have two DoTs, don'tcha?
PLD's been treated good since stormblood, mald some more.

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In what universe has PLD had dominance for 2 expansions? It was amazing at the beginning of SB for like....half a patch? Before S.E. buffed the other tanks and WAR took their spot back. In SHB PLD was arguably the worst tank after DRK, with GNB being the best damage wise and WAR being the best on every other front. And that was only because DRK was, and still is, extremely clunky.

Use case means nothing either because the only reasons PLD is being played atm have nothing to do with their dps.
A.) It's the poster job of the expansion.
B.) It's been made incredibly fun.

It's lagging behind all 3 other tanks in dps by quite a significant margin. To the degree that Yoshi P has straight up said it's getting a dps buff.

Lots of people care about it's dps and the state it's in. Just because you don't doesn't give you the right to be rude. Especially when you clearly haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Dude, what? It hits for the same potency as FoF buffed goring in the exact same spot of the rotation that goring blade would be in a level 80 rotation, but the difference is now you only have like 6 unbuffed physical GCDs per minute instead of the previous 9. How is that something to get so indignant about?

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

A flat potency increase with no DoT would hurt our DPS output if they didn't make Blade of Valor 980 potency (normally 420) since the DoT alone is 560 potency, but if they did do that we would be destroying trash mobs in dungeon pulls. Even if they did raise it's DoT to be the same as Goring Blade under the effects of FoF, it would only increase 1.25 potency per tick. Goring Blade got nerfed this expansion from 85 to 65 a tick (not to mention the combo potency of the attack itself was destroyed from 390 to 250) so FoF only makes it 81.25 potency now. The main issue is that while using FoF, you used to get 2 Goring Blades and 1 Royal Authority combo off. Now when using FoF we can only get 1 Goring and 1 Royal Authority and FoF no longer fits the physical combo like it once did due to having to work around not overwriting the DoTs.

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Except you need to remember Gunbreaker drops a 1200 potency AOE that deals 20%less damage to other targets hit, and it can do it on command, where as the other Tanks need to go through their standard rotation. I see absolutely no reason not to allow PLD a more bursty phase, especially since that is part of what holds it back as the MT.

PLD is getting potency buffs next patch, confirmed by Yoshi P in the latest interview. Also, you be surprised what a little skill speed can do for DOTs

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

no one cares. Usage numbers say you're wrong, and hard stats trump your feefees any day.

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PLD is the least played tank in p4s, by like a margin 3 to 1 lmao.

We're obtaining what we wish, no use discussing more.

Yoshida has stated Paladin will be receiving DPS buffs, that's all we wanted and got the wish.

Here's hoping PLD gets bumped up to DRK levels so we can bathe in the resulting tears.

In my opinion the best way to fix this would be giving valor a physical damage buff equal to fof without being able to stack, lasting about 18 seconds long

This would do two things
Fix paladins low dps output without changing it's general rotation
Fix confiteor openers being awkward

i think give a job 2 DoT is just bad over all (Looking at you DRK). If SE want to stack 2 DOT on PLD its gonner mess up your Rotation. Just give PLD some potency buff and be done with it. The job is so good with tank right now that give them more is just too overpower

Atonement potency buff, Blades potency buff, change the Confiteor/Blades into Skill Speed ruling, Pld does fall so behind raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by OllaniusPius

i think give a job 2 DoT is just bad over all (Looking at you DRK). If SE want to stack 2 DOT on PLD its gonner mess up your Rotation. Just give PLD some potency buff and be done with it. The job is so good with tank right now that give them more is just too overpower

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PLD already has 2 dots they can apply at a time in the form of 'Circle of Scorn' and 'Goring Blade' OR 'Blade of Valor'. Having multiple dots does not make a job overpowered. All S.E. would need to do is adjust potencies and they could easily use all 3 at once.

I don't think they should do that, but it's entirely feasible.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

PLD already has 2 dots they can apply at a time in the form of 'Circle of Scorn' and 'Goring Blade' OR 'Blade of Valor'. Having multiple dots does not make a job overpowered. All S.E. would need to do is adjust potencies and they could easily use all 3 at once.

I don't think they should do that, but it's entirely feasible.

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meh i think so but i too believe for some reason stacking dots is a dumb mechanic to give in rank role, specially a PLD. I would only wish that atones dont break combos so we can manipulate our timeline more.
i just cant stop thinking the burden that would be to always try keep both of them up 100% of the fight, feels like a Bard gameplay to me but the bad version of it that didnt had Iron jaws

Also WTH Square Enix, why Circle of Scorn sucks so much? id reather have it be a flat damage oGCD, that ability is straight garbo.(sorry ARR Devs. its sad but its true)

I honestly don't see why you would even consider making them stack, Paladin's rotation is already too long (63-64 seconds).

If you had to do a Goring combo after your Valor combo to get both dots ticking it would turn into a complete mess because now you're either adding another 3 GCDs to it, making you definitely drift out of raid buffs and delaying FoF (since even if you dropped an entire Atonement phase you would still be a GCD behind), or you have to drop even more Atonements and overwrite Goring early. I don't know about you, but to me that sounds absolutely awful in practice.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

I don't understand why SE decided to do this. Currently PLD is the weakest tank in the game (don't pull the "utility" card because it's not true). Why did they decide to not let us have two DoT's going at once? Because of the new Blade of Valor skill, it screws up our physical DPS rotation and now it's weaker since we can only do 1 Goring Blade during the FoF window instead of 2.

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FoF is still 2 Goring Blade. You pop flight before Goring 1, and it falls off after Goring 2. Your entire concept is based on a misconception (and also the Blade of Valor DoT is equivalent to an FoF Goring, so it's a direct upgrade to your rotation).

Could make confiteur not end requiscat ,have req effect blade combo (as they are spells) and also the blade dot. Would save 3 gcds and improve plds damage. Might want to nerf blade combos aoe effectivenes instead of 50% to 70%.

I don't really care that much about the dps as I don't Savage. But it would feel better if I'm not overwriting my own DoT even though I'm using a completely different skill. Just in the sense of not putting in traps in the skills that players have to actively avoid. I know some people love it and say it's part of "skill", but that's not really what I'm talking about.

This is in the same theme as having a weaker shield from Healer 1 overwite a stronger shield from Healer 2. It can be argued that Healer 1 needs to L2P, but it's still a bad feeling when it happens (and I agree the healer shield case is a lot more legitimately unavoidable at times, not so with the PLD overwriting his own DoT being totally his own fault).

After doing a quick look at the DPS value of the blade of valor combo, Im now wondering how much of the DoT is overwritten?
The full BoV combo is only 20 DPS higher than if you just ended at Confiteor, and went back to normal combos. IF...
If you ignore the DoT added by BoV. (ill explain why you ignore it below)
if the amount of Goring overwritten is greater than 20 lost DPS, (taking into account the time it takes to ramp up the combo to do the next goring) then id imagine it could be a DPS increase to just not bother with BoV combo.

This seem too wonky to be true, so im glad to hear if im wrong by someone whos has real experience playing PLD. (i dont really play PLD)

EDIT: i put the value of the physical combo to be FB+RB+RA+A+A+A then divide by 6. I put the value of BoV combo as BoF+BoT+BoV then divide by 3
i forgot i need to adjust the physical combo value by the goring blade combo as well, so it should be the same as above, but also +FB+RB+GB but divide by 9 instead of 6.
This puts BoV combo valued DPS as 58 more potency, instead of 20. (again, ignoring the DoT dmg added by either combo)
So the updated version would be if youre losing more than 58 potency from overwriting the DoT. (again, idk where this situation takes place in the rotation well enough to try and add the potencies up)

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I don't really care that much about the dps as I don't Savage. But it would feel better if I'm not overwriting my own DoT even though I'm using a completely different skill. Just in the sense of not putting in traps in the skills that players have to actively avoid. I know some people love it and say it's part of "skill", but that's not really what I'm talking about.

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Not sure where you're overwriting your own DoT, because that shouldn't happen. You apply your 2nd Goring Blade during FoF when your 1st one is about to run out and you apply the Valor combo's DoT as your 2nd Goring is about to run out.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

So the updated version would be if youre losing more than 58 potency from overwriting the DoT. (again, idk where this situation takes place in the rotation well enough to try and add the potencies up)

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I haven't played paladin that much either but I'm pretty sure you're never actually overwriting your DoT, unless you drop an Atonement to make your rotation align with raid buffs and in that case you're overwriting your BoV DoT early and not your GB DoT.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I haven't played paladin that much either but I'm pretty sure you're never actually overwriting your DoT, unless you drop an Atonement to make your rotation align with raid buffs and in that case you're overwriting your BoV DoT early and not your GB DoT.

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Yeah, correct, the BoV dot will be overwritten in around 2s skipping one Atonement.

Skipping 1 Atonement slows the de-sync, doesn't stay aligned.