Paladin weakest Tank now

I figured the poster boy treatment was gonna be a curse , PLD is 10% behind DRK on dps might as well use him for prog and then toss him in the closet unless we get a decent balance patch.

Look forward to getting a random attack skill in the next patch called Endwalker.

PLD has a very satisfying loop but oh no, its numbers are too low ! Not like it was almost unkillable.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

PLD has a very satisfying loop but oh no, its numbers are too low ! Not like it was almost unkillable.

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Gun's and especially WAR's defensive kits are more efficient and flexible than Paladin's, and DRK still has the best Tank CD in the game.

I always felt is was fine for Paladins to rank bottom for tank DPS given all the utility they can contribute, but most of their tools are too situational to be as far behind in DPS as they are now.

Paladin has the most robust kit in terms of utility, self-sustain, and mitigation. This in turn allows your healers to output more dps on your behalf, which is why things are balanced this way. You've already had two expansions as hands down the most dominant tank, heaven forbid that you're not the best tank at everything.

Paladins and Warriors are top tier tanks right now in my opinion.

Also DRK best tank CD ??? Bahahahaha lol looking at all the warriors and paladins literaly soloing trashpacks and bosses.. While a DRK shits himself the moment the healer starts emergency healing someone else...

From healers perspecitive is PLD strongest tank who is making possible that I can be glaring at monsters (pun intended) most time...and have more time to heal those pesky dragoons.

TBN is far from being the best Tank CD now, even before claiming it was incredible was an exageration. It's good, but every other tank has better stuff.

TBN lost its claim to being a strong cd the moment they revealed the level 82 upgrades of the other 3 tanks. Completely free and completely busted. Meanwhile Oblation OMEGALUL.

Thing is in a raid setting, PLD is still an off tank, as other tanks have better tool kits suited for main tanking, so the new shiny sustain PLD has like holy spirit self heal effect kind became useless because u arent the one who's constantly taking damage. In which case, PLD is a weak tank to bring into a raid setting, the damage disparity between pld and other tanks is generally not worth the better sustain, when you aren't gonna be the one using the sustain anyway. Also doesnt help cover is essentially a garbage skill that have a very niche purpose, sure it can have a huge impact in runs if you run into such situations, but let's be honest, how often do you ever react fast enough to use cover on somebody to save a raid from a wipe?

I am speaking from a PLD main perspective, and I had been playing PLD since 2.0. I think PLD need a damage buff. Oh and did i mention Hallowed Ground is still the invuln skill with the longest cooldown??

And DRK need a small buff to oblation.

Did we mention that DRK's invul kills him ?
That DRK is the tank that needs sustain the most yet the one that gets the less ?
PLD need for a damage buff is easy enough to adjust, it's just potency changes.

DRK doesn't need sustain changes any more than PLD needs a damage buff.

I get the feeling that DRK is the SAM/MCH/BLM of the tanks in this expansion extremely dependent on other while not giving much back but damage and basic tools while PLD is the one that does support the best at the price of damage.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Paladin has the most robust kit in terms of utility, self-sustain, and mitigation. This in turn allows your healers to output more dps on your behalf, which is why things are balanced this way. You've already had two expansions as hands down the most dominant tank, heaven forbid that you're not the best tank at everything.

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This is not good balancing. Warriors sustain is far beyond Paladins, seriously have you tried Bloodwhetting? You're almost invincible with it, Single/Multi target. Paladin, isn't going to solve DPS by slightly adding more DPS to Healers for having a little more utility than Gunbreaker.

Dark Knight/Gunbreaker combo completely destroys the DPS competition, Dark Knight may actually get a slight DPS nerf. No one is bringing Paladin, if it's DPS is far too low when you can just set in Warrior, with a Dark Knight, or Gunbreaker, Paladin, is getting DPS buffs one way, or another and that's a fact, it's too far behind Warrior/Gunbreaker, roughly 300 DPS difference.

And no completely incorrect as most dominant. Warrior was the dominant in Stormblood, Gunbreaker, was the must pick tank and dominant in SHBs. Paladin, only started beating Dark Knight, around Eden Promise.

The funny thing is that despite all this bellyaching about damage output, PLD is still significantly more represented in runs than DRK. If they boost PLD's dps without significantly nerfing the rest of its kit, it's going to be even more lobsided than Stormblood was. I'm surprised that you're not embarrassed asking for even more of an advantage than you already have.

As it should be. It has the most utility out of all the tanks. People complaining about DRK damage being too high.

DRK has- The worse sustain out of all the tanks
- The worse invuln out of all the tanks
- The least amount of QOL addressed in EW out of all the tanks.

I am sure we will see buffs to PLD, but to expect it to be up near DRK and GNB is unrealistic.

PLD should be lowest anyway its utility is amazing,
but just like in ShB tank dps isn't really the problem.

all for Drk being greedy dps but it would need something to counteract lack of sustain so it doesn't put too much strain on healers
like heal buff on Oblation,extra mitigation after TBN breaks,living dead not being a resource vacuum etc etc

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The funny thing is that despite all this bellyaching about damage output, PLD is still significantly more represented in runs than DRK.

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Despite forum hate margin, Dark Knight is destroying the tank competition.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If they boost PLD's dps without significantly nerfing the rest of its kit, it's going to be even more lobsided than Stormblood was. I'm surprised that you're not embarrassed asking for even more of an advantage than you already have.

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Uh-huh, please tell me more how Warrior still has the strongest Invuln, the strongest self healing, super strong in multiple patches except SHBs.

Shall I be embarrassed?

Bloodwhetting/Equlibrium: 3x more healing than Holy Sheltron/Holy Spirit put together, including Holy Sheltron Damage mitigation.
Bloodwhetting pop: All good healers I am invulnerable against most attacks for 8 seconds, every 30 seconds.
Equilibrium: Instant heal pop off and a Regen, Thrill multiplies it.
Holmgang 4 mins, 10 seconds now, vs 7 Min cooldown take no damage.
Currently better DPS in everyway.
Better aligned burst.
Shake is Veil, except Veil can be more time exploited.
Nascent Flash is 2x stronger than Intervention support.

Are you trolling?

Paladin is hardly picked in current content, it's horrible. Dark Knight/Gunbreaker comp is so strong, when you need more healing just bring Warrior over Gunbreaker. Currently Paladin, cannot do anything remotely amazing, or useful to warrant it's place than Savage Raid prog. Paladin needs DPS potency buffs matching up with Warrior/Gunbreaker.

Edit:

Dark Knight can remain at the top. And I'm switching to Dark Knight for the obvious reason.

Most of the serious Dark Knight hate I've seen so far are in this forum and this particular topic, rest of the internet, especially FFXIV Reddit seem less extreme about it and also less hung up on nostalgia for HW and SB.

Like beyond the few people who keep mentioning how much they liked HW and SB DRK better, nobody gives a shit. I personally don't give a shit either.

Now granted, there are some abilities and design decisions I really dislike and will continue to give the DRK Devs shit for it i.e. fluff, button bloat, no HP Sustain beyond Soul Eater for single target and Abyssal Drain 60s CD for Mob Packs but overall, DRK is the only Tank Job that can keep up with my speed and responsiveness demands. PLD/WAR/GNB seem slow motion to me.

Originally I was going to main PLD for thematic, Confiteor Combo and self heal buff reasons but it just didn't feel good enough or responsive enough to keep up with me, same with WAR, only GNB was OK enough to be bearable so that's probably going to be the next Job to level to 90.

It's probably related to the way my Mechanical Keyboard & MMO Mouse setup is, everything is Keybinded sensibly so DRK is like a graceful destructive tank that turns on a dime and reacts as fast as the player thanks to all the oGCDs, which allows parallel actions GCD Combos and oGCD weavings to be done so easily and smoothly if the player can fully take advantage of it.

FFXIV reddit doesn't tolerate any criticism, even the most polite and constructive possible.
You can just question something, and you'll get downvoted to hell and beck.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

FFXIV reddit doesn't tolerate any criticism, even the most polite and constructive possible.
You can just question something, and you'll get downvoted to hell and beck.

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Use FFXIVDiscussion reddit, it's where you will find serious talk players, raiders, etc.

FFXIV reddit is full of clowns.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Use FFXIVDiscussion reddit, it's where you will find serious talk players, raiders, etc.

FFXIV reddit is full of clowns.

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I wasn't aware of that reddit, thanks.
Main subreddit is good for fanart sharing and all, but it enforces a form of toxic positivity that doesn't help at all

Don't worry I'm sure DRK dmg will be nerfed to the grave and they are making our skills worse too.

The current state is affairs is just due to a typo/prank from the developers on each other.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

Don't worry I'm sure DRK dmg will be nerfed to the grave and they are making our skills worse too.

The current state is affairs is just due to a typo/prank from the developers on each other.

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Yeah cant wait to not just not be able to survive anything on my own as a tank but have the dmg of a healer...
Fun times are coming.

I don’t think it’s acceptable that another player in my group will have to make up 500 dps just because I didn’t want to play DRK. That’s 300,000 damage over the course of a 10min fight. Tanks should be closer to dead even then this not a nerf, a balance. Most of you have forgot how PLD was shunned in Heavensward when DRK came out because lack of dps to beat enrage timers vs Drk. As we get more gear this 500 will spread to 700 or 1000 in difference. PLD has no mitigation tool in its kit that will make up for this. I agree DRK needs a rework living dead sucks it’s bad design. People who crab fish leave their catches in 5 gal buckets with not lid on top, seems wrong wont the crabs get out and run away? No as each crab clambers over the other to reach the top another crab grabs their little legs and throws them to the bottom of the bucket. We in the tank community LETS NOT BE CRABS IN A BUCKET!!!

There are plenty of things that are unacceptable. Having an invuln that is objectively worse both in design and function than every other tank that arbitrarily kills you is unacceptable. Having latency issues on Blood Weapon's execution being systematically dismissed is unnacceptable. Having DRK consistently lag behind PLD and WAR in raidwide mitigation for three expansions running is unacceptable. Having concerns be systemically neglected for five years without response or explanation despite an overwhelmingly negative community response with players leaving the job in droves is unacceptable. And now that DRK is finally achieving something positive with its damage output after being on the bottom end for two expansions running, PLD players like yourself can't stand it, despite excelling in pretty much every other area of tanking? My heart bleeds for you.

What we presently have is a complete band-aid fix just to prevent the few remaining DRK players from leaving the job. The dev team would have to be beyond daft to buff PLD while ignoring these broader and bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

My heart bleeds for you.

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Crabs in a bucket, surrounded by salted earth SMH.

I’ve said this a thousand times in a thousand outlets and I’ll say it again

I
DONT
CARE
ABOUT
NUMBERS

In core content numbers hardly do shit besides make the instances shorter, and EX nothing is underpowered to Alienate other jobs. I will always prefer the tangible kit. And speaking of DRK has the worst one despite its “numbers” being better under certain conditions

Edge of Shadow = 460 potency, 3k MP, 1 sec recast, 10% dmg up

Fell Cleave = 460 potency, tied to gcd, 50 gauge

Nuff said...

Its kind of expected though I fear they might use this fact that DRK is a high dmg tank to not address its defensive cds. Poster boy curse doesn't really apply to PLD since it is mechanically sound for the most part. Just needs potency buffs. DRK ShB led us down a dark road. MNK in SB forced a rework in EW. PLD fared far better than these two.

I remember in 4.0 when DRK was a solid 300-400 dps behind WAR and PLD and back then it was perfectly okay with everyone. Why is it now not okay that they are ahead by a similar margin in 6.0?

The double standards when it comes to damage numbers is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Visanis

I remember in 4.0 when DRK was a solid 300-400 dps behind WAR and PLD and back then it was perfectly okay with everyone. Why is it now not okay that they are ahead by a similar margin in 6.0?

The double standards when it comes to damage numbers is laughable.

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This is incorrect, DRK in 4.X did more damage than Paladin, but it brought nothing else of worth, and most people didn't like the Dark Arts spamming, when Paladin was just comfy and Cover was super good for most fights.

Also worth noting Paladin got nerfed during the first balancing patch of SB, and later again Shield Swipe and, Holy Spirit got a second nerf, so your claiming of double standard is full of s***.

If you want double standard, claiming utility means a job has to do less damage, remember Warrior existed in HW, that was a walking contradiction.

Ohh no.
99.9% will probably not be effected by the DMG because they are not day 1 HC raiding.
It's all about preference and not DMG.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Ohh no.
99.9% will probably not be effected by the DMG because they are not day 1 HC raiding.
It's all about preference and not DMG.

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So if it won't affect you, why do you even care what is said here, let those that do care, actually voice their concerns. :)

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

DRK still has the best Tank CD in the game.

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I think you need to get off the TBN Copium.

You can't compare TBN to Bloodwhetting, Holy Sheltron or Heart of Corundum, all 3 shit on TBN.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

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No, what you've written is by and large incorrect. I posted the damage output by percentile for tanks at multiple points across each tier in Stormblood, and the posts are still on this very forum.

PLD started out with a significant advantage over WAR and DRK, the two of which were roughly on par with each other. WAR was then buffed just before the start of the first raid tier, and PLD/WAR became the most common comp. A series of subsequent buffs pushed WAR ahead of PLD. DRK only started to catch up in the end following the 4.3 changes. And even when it did, it was fight dependent, and on the fights where DRK did pull ahead it was generally on the top few percentiles through raw skill and superior uptime.

Overall, PLD has always been designed to be a safer tank, right down to its aesthetics and player expectations. I think it's appropriate to reward DRK for being a higher risk playstyle. Why use a greatsword when a toothpick and cower, oops, I meant tower shield could suffice?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

No, what you've written is by and large incorrect. I posted the damage output by percentile for tanks at multiple points across each tier in Stormblood, and the posts are still on this very forum.

PLD started out with a significant advantage over WAR and DRK, the two of which were roughly on par with each other. WAR was then buffed just before the start of the first raid tier, and PLD/WAR became the most common comp. A series of subsequent buffs pushed WAR ahead of PLD. DRK only started to catch up in the end following the 4.3 changes. And even when it did, it was fight dependent, and on the fights where DRK did pull ahead it was generally on the top few percentiles through raw skill and superior uptime.

Overall, PLD has always been designed to be a safer tank, right down to its aesthetics and player expectations. I think it's appropriate to reward DRK for being a higher risk playstyle. Why use a greatsword when a toothpick and cower, oops, I meant tower shield could suffice?

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right so spamming one combo with the occasional bloodspiller should do more damage over an actual rotation sure thing Lyth.

GNB is also a 'one combo' job. Too bad that both of these 'one combo' jobs have higher APM through oGCDs, along with actual resource management.

TBN's BIGGEST problem is it costs 1/3rd of the DRK's damage resource.

You can legit fire and forget the other 3, you don't need 100% value out of BW, HS, HoC.


You MUST have TBN pop every single use or you lose 460 potency of damage every time the shield doesn't break.



Just increase TBN's cooldown to 25 seconds and remove the MP cost already.

MAYBE then it'll be able to stand up to BW, HS or HoC.



Another idea - Make it so the DRK gets the Dark Arts proc on expiration or shield being absorbed fully.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

TBN's BIGGEST problem is it costs 1/3rd of the DRK's damage resource.

You can legit fire and forget the other 3, you don't need 100% value out of BW, HS, HoC.


You MUST have TBN pop every single use or you lose 460 potency of damage every time the shield doesn't break.



Just increase TBN's cooldown to 25 seconds and remove the MP cost already.

MAYBE then it'll be able to stand up to BW, HS or HoC.



Another idea - Make it so the DRK gets the Dark Arts proc on expiration or shield being absorbed fully.

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Honestly reduce the HP shield strength to 15%, bake in the 10% mitigation from Oblation, remove the 3000mp cost, give it a 25 second recast and when the shield breaks or times out gives a heal for 15% of max HP, and give Oblation the same but only works on party members, both share a recast, job done. Can just move Dark Arts to Carve and Spit or something.

That sounds like an awful deal. I'd rather keep the ability the way it is and press the button at the correct time. If you want comfy, there's PLD for that.