Curious about something regarding Emet-Selch ***Endwalker spoilers***

He seems pretty dead set on stopping you, even knowing full well that you're Azem, all through Shadowbringers. Sure, he hopes to do it peacefully until the end, but he's obviously your enemy.

Then he's willing to help you in Endwalker. It makes sense, since you're trying to stop the thing that destroyed his civilization, but I wonder how much of it was motivated by guilt. When it was some unknown disaster, followed by Hydaelyn sundering them, Emet seemed to feel cheated, like his civilization deserved another chance and you were standing in the way of him giving it one. I wonder how much the realization of "well dang, we did this to ourselves" changed his mind.

Edit: I'm aware that the Elpis version is his past self. I'm talking about the Emet ex Machina where he shows up in Ultima Thule and revives the Scions.

More important why does he look like Xehanort?

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Originally Posted by BiddyBatnana

More important why does he look like Xehanort?

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IT'S UNCANNY

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Originally Posted by PredatoryCatgirl

He seems pretty dead set on stopping you, even knowing full well that you're Azem, all through Shadowbringers. Sure, he hopes to do it peacefully until the end, but he's obviously your enemy.

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Emet-Selch didn’t know that we were Azem until the very end, when our soul merged with Ardbert’s and he momentarily sees an Amaroutine standing in our place—and even then, he doesn’t want to believe it. In the Japanese, he says ‘No, it’s impossible. You couldn’t be them’. Before that, he didn’t know us from Adam/Eve, despite his ability to see the color of souls. Could be because ours was tainted with Light and not entirely recognizable—Y’shtola mentions to Urianger when we find her that our aether didn’t look like our normal aether, so this could likely also have extended to our soul.

EDIT: I believe there may have been one other mention of our soul prior to that—but I’m fairly certain he still shrugs it off as impossible. I’d have to go back through ShB again, but it’s very clear at the end before we fight him that he never realized who we were prior to that moment. And he vocally didn’t accept it at that time. Kind of like at the end of Elpis when we’re about to be whisked away before Hermes can manipulate our memory, he still says “I still don’t believe your story”. Even then he disagreed with Hythlodaeus about us being Azem’s familiar.

Of course, how much of his behavior and words in Elpis is fact and how much is just him being a stubborn, ol’ Grumpy Gus could be debatable. But he never acknowledged us as a sundered part of Azem in ShB.

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Originally Posted by PredatoryCatgirl

He seems pretty dead set on stopping you, even knowing full well that you're Azem, all through Shadowbringers. Sure, he hopes to do it peacefully until the end, but he's obviously your enemy.

Then he's willing to help you in Endwalker. It makes sense, since you're trying to stop the thing that destroyed his civilization, but I wonder how much of it was motivated by guilt. When it was some unknown disaster, followed by Hydaelyn sundering them, Emet seemed to feel cheated, like his civilization deserved another chance and you were standing in the way of him giving it one. I wonder how much the realization of "well dang, we did this to ourselves" changed his mind.

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The Emet-Selch we interact with in Endwalker (until the very end of Ultima Thule) has no memory of his actions in Shadowbringers. It's his past self. Even when WoL tells him what happened, he never believes it, not for a second. So, no, he's not motivated by guilt; he can't be. He is completely unaware of everything that he did. Further, the last bit (at the end of Ultima Thule) where it is not his past self, remember that he does an about-face at the end of Shadowbringers, so his assistance makes sense.

There are a bunch of reasons for this throughout Shadowbringers and Endwalker. He didn't really figure out who we were until the end of Shadowbringers. The entire time he's traveling with us and informing us about things he seems to sort of see his own defeat coming but has to go through with it anyway because he's been working toward it for over 10,000 years or whatever. He specifically tells us that he and the other members of the Convocation were tempered when they summoned Zodiark, as you would expect from a primal, and they have to work toward restoring him because of it. In his last scene in Endwalker he says that even after you have defeated him and get to do things your way, that he still holds onto his ideals of the perfect civilization of the ancients he wanted to restore; basically he was doing the right thing from his perspective even though yours is right for the world and everyone living in it now (remember that in Shadowbringers he says that he doesn't even consider sundered souls real people from his perspective).

Then there are the implied reasons. Due to Hermes's usage of Kairos, he doesn't know what the cause of the Final Days is at all from that point all the way up through Shadowbringers, and so why would he ever listen to Azem or Hydaelyn/Venat who "defeated" Zodiark and stops you from restoring not only his personal god but also the thing that actually worked to stop the Final Days? Along this same line of thought, he's had millennia to do so if it ever would have worked - Venat and Azem both attempted to persuade the other members of the Convocation as well as other members of their society before and after summoning Hydaelyn to carry out their own plan, and if he didn't listen to the actual people, why would he listen to you, who's only around half of one of them?

Elpis Emet is past Emet. He hadn't been tempered at that point so thats who he was before things went to hell: prickly, snappy, whiny (lol) but ultimately a good and honorable person.

He helps in Seat of Sacrifice/Ultima Thule because on top of his memory being returned and the tempering being undone, he's accepted that his friend lives on in us and because of that he'll honor the promise he recorded in Azem's crystal (FR: "Even now, when we are more than ever separated by time, space and feelings, it would take just one gesture, one word, to unite us again.") should we call on him.

As I undestood it, Emet did know who we were during Shadowbringers, but he considered us an inferior version of ourselves due to being incomplete. He did ask to acompany us through the msq so he could be able to judge our worth.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

As I undestood it, Emet did know who we were during Shadowbringers, but he considered us an inferior version of ourselves due to being incomplete. He did ask to acompany us through the msq so he could be able to judge our worth.

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That was to judge the worth of mankind as it stood now—he stated as such later when he told us that he still found us wanting (us meaning mankind, not us meaning Azem’s sundered self). Not because he recognized us as a sundered part of Azem. He says at the end that we couldn’t be them.

He didn't remember until he died because of Kairos. And he was tempered.

"That was past Emet"
How would past Emet know the present state of affairs of the world when he was telling us to widen our horizons?
THAT was Emet in the present with all his memories restored. It was his half dead soul plucked out from the Aetherial Sea by Hydaelyn's magic, that she herself used to enchant Azem's stone. When in the dungeon in the Aetherial Sea, it was said that he was most likely around in there somewhere alluding that he existed in our time.

If his appearance confuses you, that's just how he looks. The Garlean body is not his true form, it was a flesh suit that he could use to manifest into the physical realm. So when he physically perished, his soul is going to represent his true visual identity.

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Originally Posted by BiddyBatnana

More important why does he look like Xehanort?

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...and Bill Murray! ;)

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Originally Posted by PredatoryCatgirl

Edit: I'm aware that the Elpis version is his past self. I'm talking about the Emet ex Machina where he shows up in Ultima Thule and revives the Scions.

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Ultima Thule = SHB Emet + memories of Elpis. I don't see guilt as much as him just being himself again: when Azem needs help he's there to help. Saving his star and the scions are a bonus, he's there cause there aint no mountain high enough lol

More importantly. Why are the Emet and Hythlodaeus you create in Ultima Thule the same size as you? They are Ancients, they are supposed to be enormous.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

More importantly. Why are the Emet and Hythlodaeus you create in Ultima Thule the same size as you? They are Ancients, they are supposed to be enormous.

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I was a little disappointed they seemed to get this wrong in multiple places after the stairs in the inside of the moon all had to be jumped up to traverse for this reason.

Meteion is also way too small once the real you gets there. Emet-Selch also presumably makes you larger in Elpis, but then all of the wildlife they created is exactly the same size relative to you in the present time. The ancient people are also all around the same height as Estinien and Urianger in the ending art, and though you could chalk that up to just being art they're still made much taller than hyuran characters just not as tall as they're supposed to have been.

But was Emet actually tempered? I mean we all assumed that in the shadowbringers until we learned in endwalker that the ascians actually added the tempering part to the "creation" magic they taught to beast tribes and other mortals that was used to summon primals. So going by that logic both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were brough into existance still with the old school way of creation and really shouldn't have tempered their creators.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

I was a little disappointed they seemed to get this wrong in multiple places after the stairs in the inside of the moon all had to be jumped up to traverse for this reason.

Meteion is also way too small once the real you gets there. Emet-Selch also presumably makes you larger in Elpis, but then all of the wildlife they created is exactly the same size relative to you in the present time. The ancient people are also all around the same height as Estinien and Urianger in the ending art, and though you could chalk that up to just being art they're still made much taller than hyuran characters just not as tall as they're supposed to have been.

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I didn't think about Meteion, but you're right. The wildlife, I assumed, was just a consequence of the sundering. The same happened to our bodies I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mortime

But was Emet actually tempered? I mean we all assumed that in the shadowbringers until we learned in endwalker that the ascians actually added the tempering part to the "creation" magic they taught to beast tribes and other mortals that was used to summon primals. So going by that logic both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were brough into existance still with the old school way of creation and really shouldn't have tempered their creators.

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Yes, I think it's in Rak'tika when he tells you. The first thing Zodiark did was temper them.

Suppose that's where they got the idea from then.

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Originally Posted by Mortime

But was Emet actually tempered? I mean we all assumed that in the shadowbringers until we learned in endwalker that the ascians actually added the tempering part to the "creation" magic they taught to beast tribes and other mortals that was used to summon primals. So going by that logic both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were brough into existance still with the old school way of creation and really shouldn't have tempered their creators.

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One of the constellation crystals we scoop up in 5.3 has a convocation member saying that they can feel their mind/powers warping post summoning. Moonbunnys say that primals as strong as Zodiark will inherently have a pull towards them and the convocation got exposed to 3 major waves of Zodiark fumes:
initial summoning/sacrifice #1
sacrifice #2
zodiark recreation of Elidibus

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Originally Posted by Mortime

But was Emet actually tempered? I mean we all assumed that in the shadowbringers until we learned in endwalker that the ascians actually added the tempering part to the "creation" magic they taught to beast tribes and other mortals that was used to summon primals. So going by that logic both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were brough into existance still with the old school way of creation and really shouldn't have tempered their creators.

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Yes, he says so himself

https://i.imgur.com/uA07Hl2.png

"Curious about something regarding Emet-Selch ***Endwalker spoilers***"

The way you phrased your title pretty much spoiled that Emet-Selch is in Endwalker...for the peeps who haven't progressed that far into it yet. :/

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

As I undestood it, Emet did know who we were during Shadowbringers, but he considered us an inferior version of ourselves due to being incomplete. He did ask to acompany us through the msq so he could be able to judge our worth.

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This.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That was to judge the worth of mankind as it stood now—he stated as such later when he told us that he still found us wanting (us meaning mankind, not us meaning Azem’s sundered self). Not because he recognized us as a sundered part of Azem. He says at the end that we couldn’t be them.

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Emet had (tied with Hythlodaeus; he was just a much better mage than Hyth, period) the strongest aetheric sight of all the ancients (part of the reason Azem and Hyth pushed for him to take the seat of Emet-Selch), and could perceive the unique colour of a persons' soul. Early on in ShB when he's spying on our activities during the quest The Oracle of Light, during his observation he says "then again... with a soul such as that...". Logically, there's only one person he could be speaking about, and given his strength of sight, there's zero way he could be mistaken. He knew we were the sundered Azem and was hopeful we could be convinced to side with the him and the other Ascians and tests us, but we're found wanting, yes. At that point it's more that he's unwilling to accept that we're his old friend. A "Azem could have done it, but since she/he clearly can't, this must not be Azem" sort of thing. Strikes me more as rationalizing his disappointment/grief.

I feel it also bears reminding that Emet had our soul stone prepared at some point before our final battle with him, per Hythlodaeus' shade; that quest is Etched in the Stars where we're picking up the soul stones of the lost Convocation members, the final of which is ours. Hyths' shade tells us straight out that even though the fourteenth seat (Azem) was considered disgraced due to us disagreeing with the whole Zodiark plan and defecting, Emet ("a friend", though again, logically it could be no other) had the stone prepared a long time ago, in secret. No, he couldn't accept that we were Azem before we best him; however it seemed he also really wanted to be wrong and had Hyth's shade leave those stones for us. The shade was more aware than the rest (no different from the real life Hyth, honestly), but still clearly influenced by Emet's hopes.

Also, uh... Emet is just Emet. He is indeed a grump-grump but clearly cares more for his friends/in general than he'd ever admit. Not sure why some people (not quoted here) think there's a weird disconnect between Elpis Emet, ShB Emet, and Endwalker finale Emet. One is just him before his myriad burdens, the other is him after shouldering them and going to extreme lengths to rectify what he saw as a great wrong, with the final being him after he remembered and accepted everything else. In Elpis he was actually horrified to hear that he ends up being the cause of great suffering and (understandably) vehemently denies it and us as a result. I mean... if someone told you that you would go on to cause devastation yet ultimately, despite your adherence to duty, give up your goals ("forsake my brethren", as he put it)... You'd likely react in the same way; you'd refuse to accept any of it.

Eh, this is a bit of a ramble as I've been low on sleep so I'm not sure how well I conveyed my thoughts... hopefully this was clear enough.

In ShB he still had hopes that he can unsunder the worlds and revive Amaurites and preserve thru Zodiark. Weather it was his own belief or result of Zodiarks tempering is hard to answer.

When we summon him in Ultima Tule he is definitely not tempered and have his memory's back so he understands that only way for Amaurites to carry on even tho sundered is to help WoL out. Otherwise even his soul won't have chance to be reborn.

When it comes to recognizing WoL as sundered Azem soul it just could be that it has been so long he don't rember color of Azem soul anymore but after seeing WoL standing out and being beacon of hope it slowly comes back to him.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Emet had (tied with Hythlodaeus; he was just a much better mage than Hyth, period) the strongest aetheric sight of all the ancients (part of the reason Azem and Hyth pushed for him to take the seat of Emet-Selch), and could perceive the unique colour of a persons' soul.

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Hades wasn't unmatched in terms of soul sight. Hythlodaeus had the superior ability (explicitly stated in Tales from the Shadows), but he felt his friend was better suited for the seat of Emet-Selch because of his far, far superior ability with creation magic (as you mentioned). His take was something to the effect of: there's no point in having this sight if I don't have the power to act on it. Which is why he pushed Hades for it after he had rejected the seat for himself.

But yes, I do agree that Emet-Selch knew the Warrior of Light is Azem. It's just that, much like how he said he didn't consider the fragmented beings to be people, he didn't accept the Warrior of Light as Azem. There are other instances throughout Shadowbringers, like when he's talking about Amaurot to the protagonist, and he remarks, "Not that you would remember." If you choose to inquire about "remember" he just says never mind and moves on.

To me, his lashing out toward the end of Shadowbringers was because seeing the vision of Azem within the Warrior of Light was basically proof that you truly were the inheritor of his best friend's spirit. Except he's now on the opposite side of the fence, too far gone to rekindle anything. He had to fight to the death with his best friend, and it made him angry.

I can't help but think of Dr. Emmett Brown when I see "Emet-Selch" Must have had some wicked 1.21 gigawatts of unlimited power kupo <3

Emet does still hate us, and says he wants nothing to do with us.

If anything, I imagine him saving us twice, once against Elidibus and second time helping us at Ultima Thule is just his ways of making sure the world goes on. Not letting Elidibus or Meteon destroy it.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Emet does still hate us, and says he wants nothing to do with us.

If anything, I imagine him saving us twice, once against Elidibus and second time helping us at Ultima Thule is just his ways of making sure the world goes on. Not letting Elidibus or Meteon destroy it.

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I very much disagree with this take. All the excerpts and other interactions we have with Emet-Selch demonstrates that he tends to act grouchy, but feels another way. You're taking his words at face value, when he's always been pretty dishonest. In Elpis, he's shown to be very much a tsundere, acting bothered and peeved to be doing anything, but always pulling through anyway. He knows when Hythlodaeus is trying to manipulate him into doing things, he just plays along anyway. His disillusioned self through Shadowbringers pretends to be this unhinged lunatic, but it's to mask that he's actually lonely and tired from bearing the burden he has for as long as he has. In Ultima Thule, he offers the Warrior of Light incentives to keep traveling and exploring and acknowledges them as the successor to Azem, smiling while he does so. And despite saying that he wants nothing to do with us in response to Hythlodaeus saying he hopes we meet again in another life, the cutscene clearly shows Emet-Selch looking at the Warrior of Light and smiling again before returning to the aetherial sea. By all accounts, he acts the same way to Hythlodaeus and has only ever complained about Azem, but canon establishes the three of them as the best of friends.

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Originally Posted by Sakurakouji

I very much disagree with this take. All the excerpts and other interactions we have with Emet-Selch demonstrates that he tends to act grouchy, but feels another way. You're taking his words at face value, when he's always been pretty dishonest. In Elpis, he's shown to be very much a tsundere, acting bothered and peeved to be doing anything, but always pulling through anyway. He knows when Hythlodaeus is trying to manipulate him into doing things, he just plays along anyway. His disillusioned self through Shadowbringers pretends to be this unhinged lunatic, but it's to mask that he's actually lonely and tired from bearing the burden he has for as long as he has. In Ultima Thule, he offers the Warrior of Light incentives to keep traveling and exploring and acknowledges them as the successor to Azem, smiling while he does so. And despite saying that he wants nothing to do with us in response to Hythlodaeus saying he hopes we meet again in another life, the cutscene clearly shows Emet-Selch looking at the Warrior of Light and smiling again before returning to the aetherial sea. By all accounts, he acts the same way to Hythlodaeus and has only ever complained about Azem, but canon establishes the three of them as the best of friends.

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That's how I view him. He acts like he doesn't care but actually does. I could believe even now he actually views us as a friend. Though you're never going to get him to admit it.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

"Curious about something regarding Emet-Selch ***Endwalker spoilers***"

The way you phrased your title pretty much spoiled that Emet-Selch is in Endwalker...for the peeps who haven't progressed that far into it yet. :/

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No actually it hasn't It may have TALKED about Emet Selch in Endwalkers it doesn't imply per say he was in it. We're also talking about Zodiark and Hydaelyn here ...it's natural that he could have come up in mention. How, tho is for anyone playing the story was anyone's guess.

I recall there was narration in one of the trailers by Emet himself. So if you saw that trailer it was already "spoiled" that he had some kind of narration in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Sakurakouji

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I read that back when it was released, which is why I said "tied"; both their sight was far superior to any other ancient by leaps and bounds, so Hyth being slightly ahead is ultimately a negligible difference. Emet taking the seat was the wiser choice and Hyth knew it. But yeah, still baffles me that people insist Emet didn't know who we once were (or hates us now. what? he's just a grump)... I mean... the game was pretty clear on that point, and he wouldn't have been nearly so disappointed were the opposite the case.

EDIT: I could have been clearer tbf, but I did mention I was low on sleep, so chalk it up to that.

So everyone seems to be forgetting the line that Hythlodaeus says to Emet before Kairos takes effect, that maybe they'll get their wiped memories back when they die.

Shadowbringers Emet-Selch IS the Emet-Selch that met us in the past, but he has no memory of meeting us for having had his memories wiped by Kairos. On top of that, he's tempered by Zodiark, who as far as he's concerned is the true savior of the star. He doesn't understand that Venat sundered the star to give us the means to control dynamis. He sees Hydaelyn and all she stands for as the antithesis of what they sacrificed to prevent the final days the first time around. By the time he meets us in the present on the First, he either doesn't make the connection that we're the shards of Azem, or refuses to believe it. Or both, given his reaction in the Dying Gasp when we're rejoined with Ardbert's shard.

It's not until he dies that he and Hythlodaeus get their memories back, and with them, the understanding of why Venat did what she did, and who and what we are and what we've been through. THAT is why he does what he does when summoned back on Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by glitteringcosmos

So everyone seems to be forgetting the line that Hythlodaeus says to Emet before Kairos takes effect, that maybe they'll get their wiped memories back when they die.

Shadowbringers Emet-Selch IS the Emet-Selch that met us in the past, but he has no memory of meeting us for having had his memories wiped by Kairos. On top of that, he's tempered by Zodiark, who as far as he's concerned is the true savior of the star. He doesn't understand that Venat sundered the star to give us the means to control dynamis. He sees Hydaelyn and all she stands for as the antithesis of what they sacrificed to prevent the final days the first time around. By the time he meets us in the present on the First, he either doesn't make the connection that we're the shards of Azem, or refuses to believe it. Or both, given his reaction in the Dying Gasp when we're rejoined with Ardbert's shard.

It's not until he dies that he and Hythlodaeus get their memories back, and with them, the understanding of why Venat did what she did, and who and what we are and what we've been through. THAT is why he does what he does when summoned back on Ultima Thule.

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Who it "everyone" in this context, because the memory erasure was addressed. Even refereed to it in my post. Again, he did not remember what happened, but he still could see we were the sundered Azem (hence his reactions/intent to test us). Kiros doesn't make him (or Hyth)forget a natural, inborn ability, and it certainly didn't make him forget the colour of Azem's (our) soul. I feel like you're forgetting that Emet, like Hythlodaeus, can distinguish the different colours of individual souls. For goodness sake, when you first arrive in Elpis they immediately think you're a creation of Azem's that has a soul because the colour is nearly identical to hers/his. Emet just denies it in his typical grumpy way, but he's not an idiot. All he and Hyth forgot was what happened from the moment they met the sundered Azem up til what happens at the facility. They didn't forget what Azem's soul looks like. Good grief.

What I find especially odd, is that its phrased that the memories will return "in the Underworld"
Remind me again what Hades is the master of?

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Originally Posted by BiddyBatnana

More important why does he look like Xehanort?

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This was his original form, but yeah he definitely looked like young Xehanort. lol He had the body of Solus to use (as an Ascian) when we first met him in Shadowbringers, and extras made and in storage just in case something happened to his form at any given time, which we saw when Varis had enough of his crap at one point and shot him dead. Emet-Selch returned seconds later with a new body.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

the loporits said "if you summon such enormously powerful creature sbeing tempered is just a small "tug"" then that isnt the "tempered" we are imagining from what we ve seen the primals or towers do to the ones around them

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Lorporits are translated weird in english, they're very punny and speak in a way thats kinda sarcasm lite. Other languages are more explicit that primals on the tier of Zodiark will effect you and are dangerous to summon.

I would argue it is just the writer wanting to give a happy ending.
I dont believe the real Emet-Selch would just quit and abandon his objective of bringing back the original and whole and better civilization because one out of the 14 parodies of existence did something cool once, the way he acts at the end just felt of but that is the issue with such antagonists, you cant satisfy everyone, only one person wins, one loses, so trying to make a situation where everyone wins is just kinda wishful writing.


I can absolutely understand seeing the WoL as someone who MIGHT have a chance in this new world and somewhat respecting them but not that he would accept that the entire ORIGINAL civilization is now dead and gone, especially when it is absolutely possible to still bring it back via the rejoinings.

Honestly I felt we would have achieved better results if we joined him back in shadowbringers, even made a thread discussing that very topic.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

I would argue it is just the writer wanting to give a happy ending.
I dont believe the real Emet-Selch would just quit and abandon his objective of bringing back the original and whole and better civilization because one out of the 14 parodies of existence did something cool once, the way he acts at the end just felt of but that is the issue with such antagonists, you cant satisfy everyone, only one person wins, one loses, so trying to make a situation where everyone wins is just kinda wishful writing.


I can absolutely understand seeing the WoL as someone who MIGHT have a chance in this new world and somewhat respecting them but not that he would accept that the entire ORIGINAL civilization is now dead and gone, especially when it is absolutely possible to still bring it back via the rejoinings.

Honestly I felt we would have achieved better results if we joined him back in shadowbringers, even made a thread discussing that very topic.

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Prior to being beaten you are right, he wouldn't have given up on his goal. But we proved ourselves worthy in his eyes. "Remember us. Remember that we once lived" he said. And despite still being very salty about it, he has comes to terms with the fact that Amaurot's time is over, and the star's fate is no longer in his hands. He even gives us a smile before departing, letting us know he is okay with that. I think it was more of a show of respect though for his former adversary, as if he was saying "I hate that I lost, but well played".

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Emet does still hate us, and says he wants nothing to do with us.

If anything, I imagine him saving us twice, once against Elidibus and second time helping us at Ultima Thule is just his ways of making sure the world goes on. Not letting Elidibus or Meteon destroy it.

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Eh Emet doesnt hate us if anything he respects us basically the same as an old guy treats a younger person.

Emet is just grumpy, if anything he is mad at himself for failing to save his people. The only one i think has any hate for us is amons .

If you look at it closely Emet is a good guy, just like hades was in greek mythology. The proplem is with how they are forced to act/their responsibilitys they are seen as villians/bad people.

Emet desevered a happy endimg due the fact he honestly was heroic both past/present timelines. He just was broken in the present