Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

*** MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS ***

Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa,

I am a long-time Final Fantasy player, I love and adore your games, most especially FFXIV. I've been playing FFXIV since Open Beta in 2013 and I love this game so much, and I trust you, the dev team, so much, that I never once paused my subscription, even when I was taking a break from the game for travelling or other purposes.

I've recently finished Endwalker and while I am left with many unanswered/half-answered questions, one of the biggest questions/worries I have is related to Zenos. It's hard to find the words to describe everything I feel in regards to Zenos's story but I'll do my best. I'm writing this because I really really wish that you would bring back Zenos and give him a proper, in-depth redemption arc. His whole story breaks my heart on a completely different level than other heartbreaking stories of characters in this game. Zenos is someone with a tragic childhood, who was used by his own father, who ended up becoming a monster, someone who seems to have all the signs of classic depression (plus maybe other disorders), someone who didn't even have a single friend in his whole life. He never knew happiness, love, friendship, warmth. He obviously enjoyed killing others, and then pursuing the WoL for bigger and better fights, but I am quite sure that didn't give him long-time happiness, just fleeting moments of joy, gone too soon, as he himself says. He was always seeking to fill that void, and that void cannot ever be filled with just fleeting moments of joy, it needs something a lot more substantial, such as an on-going friendship, and even then, the struggle to fill that void would still remain.
I ask you to bring him back because I am someone who thinks that even monsters could be saved, and could be deserving of happiness. No matter how I look at his story, it just makes me cry every time because I want so much more for him. And maybe, just maybe, he would want something more for himself as well. I'm not saying that a redemption story should just be handed out to him easily, he should work for it, but I am saying that he deserves a proper second chance where he could actually become friends with the WoL. Zenos is someone in his mid or late 20s and it just breaks my heart that he calls us, the WoL, his first friend. Can you imagine living 26+ years of your life without a single friend? Without a single soul you could ever genuinely call your friend? Can you imagine that kind of loneliness, emptiness, that kind of emotional coldness? It just breaks my heart on so many levels that words fail me and I write this with shaking hands. I am a psychologist in training, with a goal of specialising in forensic psychology. I know that even criminals and murderers can be reformed, if given time, energy, effort, a lot of hard work. I know that monsters are not born, they are made, as cliche as that may sound. I know that the first 5 years of a child's life will define the entire life and personality of that human either in positive or negative ways and I know that it takes a lot of time and hard work to undo childhood trauma, neglect, abandonment, violence, etc. In any games I play, especially in FFXIV (and in FFXI too) I main healers, it's just part of my real personality, the desire to heal and help, give a second chance, maybe even a third chance. Zenos is someone I would want to help and heal and give another chance, at genuine happiness, something more tangible and more stable than just fleeting moments of joy. I'd want Zenos to have at least one good friend who is always there for him, who has his back, who would protect and help him, and even just spend quiet moments with him, just talking, relaxing, joking, teasing each other. I'd want Zenos to finally know that warm feeling of being wanted and needed as a human being, not to be used for personal agendas, but to be enjoyed for whom he is, and I fully believe that beyond his dark, monstruous side, Zenos also has qualities such a intelligence, cunning, sarcasm, bravery, strength. I think he deserves more and better.
I know that the final scene with Zenos was the WoL having a duel with him, and at the end of it, Zenos is shown left all alone, just after he seemed to have stopped breathing. I had no joy in doing that to him. No joy whatsoever. I was crying during the whole scene. I never ever wanted to hurt him. I wanted to give him a hug. Does it sound stupid/naive? Maybe so, but even monsters deserve a chance, of that I am convinced. Now, I know that Zenos has the Resonant and the Echo, he can body hop, he can see soul colours, he has dreams of the Final Days. So maybe he did survive that fight and his soul will go back to our world and find another body or even make a body similar/identical to his old one. Maybe he already had clones made of his original body and kept somewhere safe (say, underground) just to be safe. Or maybe he will get an entirely new body. But I want to see him back, and instead of just wanting to fight us again and again, I really really want him to be given a proper redemption story. It could be part of the main story in the future or it could be part of a side quest. He could even become a Trust member, that way he could go on adventures with us, fight by our side, and face mighty threats of all kinds; that lifestyle would suit him very well, plus he'd have us by his side, we could even have occasional mock duels with him just for fun/to learn from each other.
It's just...I can't let go of him. Yeah, personal bias, subjective, etc. But I cannot let go of him. I thought it would be harder for me to let go of someone like Emet-Selch, Elidibus or Hermes as I also love them a lot. But with these aforementioned characters, I can console myself knowing that they did have friends. They did know warmth, and proper happiness. Yes, they also suffered a lot, yes they were also the villains of their own stories, but ultimately, they did also have friends and warmth and companionship and affection at some point in their stories. Of course I would like to see them again, always, that will never change. I love them dearly. Their stories still make me cry to this day no matter how many times I go through them. But I find no comfort whatsoever in Zenos's story. None. No silver lining. No nothing. That's why I cannot let go and move on. I want something more for Zenos. I know he deserves better. Also, giving him a redemption story could also bring hope to people in real life, people who also never had friends, or who were ostracised or considered "bad" for one reason or another, and it would teach the rest of us who were luckier, that we could choose to forgive and befriend someone, even someone who seems to be "pure evil" because deep down, no one is pure evil nor pure good.
You might ask yourself "Well, why don't you mention Asahi then too? Or some other character?", and yes, I would mention any other "evil" character if that character was given the screen time that Zenos was given and if that character pursued us so single-mindedly. My desire to help, heal and save even the monsters doesn't stop at Zenos. But it is focused primarily on Zenos due to the time we have with him.
Also, the subconscious part of the mind is extremely powerful and has a large amount of influence over our daily lives, whether we realise it or not. I think that Zenos is no exception. Yes, he seeks the WoL out always for a fight, but that's the conscious reason that Zenos himself knows about. However, he definitely has at least one subconscious reason for which he seeks out so much, almost desperately, and that reason has nothing to do with just fighting. It's obviously not made crystal clear in the story to be this way, but scientifically and psychologically speaking, this theory would be applicable to any human being, even to a psychopath.
Also, something else that is important: history is written by the winners; the victors decide who the heroes and who the villains are. And obviously the side you/the WoL is on is going to say things that are favourable to their agenda/goals/ideals, even if they have to exaggerate. That is to say that while Zenos did indeed kill many and has no excuse, the stories about the numbers of people he killed, the stories about his cruelty and so on, may all or at least some of them be exaggerated. This must be kept in mind.
I am also well aware that quite a number of people either dislike or hate Zenos and quite a few are indifferent towards him. But I also know that I am not the only one who cares so much about him. I don't want to turn this topic into an argument about why we should like/hate Zenos. After all, it's all subjective and a matter of personal preference.

But I do see many people stating how they dislike/hate Zenos or just don't care about him at all, and not many who say they like/love him. I just don't want our voices to be drowned out.

So, please, please, SquareEnix, please Natsuko Ishikawa, please bring Zenos back and give him an in-depth redemption story where he can find genuine happiness, warmth, friendship and companionship at journey's end. Please show us all that even monsters are capable of overcoming their own darkness and baser instincts if given the chance. Please show us that we are strong enough, wise enough, kind enough, generous enough to truly forgive a monster and take their hand in ours in genuine affection and friendship. Please show us that after everything we've been through, after we've managed to even forgive and befriend Meteion, destroyer of worlds/stars/civilisations, we can surely forgive and befriend someone who has considered us his first and only friend for so many years.

To contrast everything you said: Please leave him dead. It's time to move on from Zenos.

Leave it to someone who likes a piece of cardboard like Zenos to have trouble with making paragraphs.

This was the Zenos redemption arc. He doesn’t need to be a good guy or to have the deepest motives. He just wants to fight us when it’ll be a fun fight.

There’s no way he’s not coming back, and I’m fine with that. It’ll be just as much fun next time, too.

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Originally Posted by Hiragawa

To contrast everything you said: Please leave him dead. It's time to move on from Zenos.

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Agreed.

Zenos went out in a way that left us with at least a good impression and his character went out in a way where he seemed genuinely content.

He passed in a beautiful place with his friend and with a lovely and final parting shot - let the character rest.

While I sort of enjoyed his character, for me Zenos is basically the Dragon Ball Z character of FFXIV, he isn't very deep and he has that Saiyan motivation of living to fight stronger opponents. There only so much you can do with this character, he is a sociopath at best, a psychopath at worst. All that he did was for himself, every time he tried to get our attention was so he could get the tiniest bit of satisfaction. He was basically extremely depressed, the world meant little for him and his entire reasoning for living was seeking that said ever fleeting and superficial satisfaction.
Once he realized he couldn't repeat that moment in Ala Migho he just let himself go, after all if he couldn't feel that happiness ever again, why live? Everything would be mundane and boring until his last breath.

Our characters could never have redeemed him or helped him because it was never what he wanted.

He died as he lived: Alone seeking the one thing that could brighten up his world.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

Zenos went out in a way that left us with at least a good impression and his character went out in a way where he seemed genuinely content. He passed in a beautiful place with his friend and with a lovely and final parting shot - let the character rest.

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Exactly. I quite detest him, but from a storyline perspective he showed up exactly when we needed him to do so. His overbearing persistence gave us an arena to quite literally save all of existence, and then went out exactly how he wanted. To bring him back yet again would be a massive disservice to his storyline.

I think Zenos did have warmth and happiness. It's just that his warmth and happiness came from fighting strong opponents in mortal combat. I don't really think he wants the sort of friendship where he hangs out with people and is buddy buddy with them. I saw a youtube comment that described Zenos perfectly "Endwalker is about a guy named Zenos who really wants to get his buddy to play PVP with him." The dude just wants to pvp all day every day. That's his joy in life and he wants his only friend, the WoL, to experience his joy as well. He's kind of like that one friend who keeps trying to get you into their favorite video game. And in the end, the WoL obliged and played with him. I would say Zenos had a ton of joy and fun in those final moments.

I don't think Zenos has some subconscious reason he seeks out fights. It's just something he does out of enjoyment and no other reason. It's sorta like meta commentary, like how gamers like to pvp simply because it's what they enjoy doing and it's fun.

I wouldn't be against him coming back, though. Isn't he surrounded by dynamis or something? Maybe he can use all that energy to travel back to Eorzea. But I would also be ok with him staying dead, idc that much.

It's not over for Zenos. What is the "Bargain" he struck? I'm sure it wasn't "Let me gorge on the mother crystal and I'll save your WoL". And the way he was just left there. It feels like he'll be back but a different person tbh.

I know this is FF14 and dead people really struggle to stay dead but Zenos got exactly what he want : fighting his friend in deadly 1V1. He help us, he save the world and the universe with us, we fight him and won. I don't feel like we need him to come back again we already have the "he is not just a big bad guys who only want battle" arc in my opinion.

At the start of EW i was affraid of Zenos because i don't like him and fear some stupid 1V1 in a stupid way with him. At the end i found that SE really did well with him !

I have a feeling he may not be gone. Whether as the players we like it or not.

I mean it's weird that Zenos would be stuck in such an incredibly bad writing spot when other characters in similar positions were worked out of it. There's also dropped threads I would have liked answered at least ie, his ability to see the Final Days...and the Sharlayan discussion of what is going on with souls - Which they touched upon MSQ. Hythlodaeus doesn't recognize him. So I'd like it answered if the school of thought was that (sans his augmentation) he's a "new" soul mixed from others or an old soul people didn't know about.

Much of our Ancient history was lost due to events. It would be interesting if they find out how to restore certain knowledge (not so much going back to Ancient selves) so that there's a more sentimental way to honor Emet Selch's wish for all the people of the land with the major threat seeming to be gone.

I think rather than an enemy Zenos would make for a better side kick similar to how Estinien was pre-SB. Having learnt slightly more about him in EW I don't think he should be a villain as he doesn't seem to have the personality for it either.

I hope the remaining EW patches help to develop Zenos's character somewhat more.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

There's also dropped threads I would have liked answered at least ie, his ability to see the Final Days...and the Sharlayan discussion of what is going on with souls - Which they touched upon MSQ.

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Yoshi P said we should pay attention to Zenos's avatar in his reaper form. I wonder what he meant by that. His avatar is named viator, right? Which means traveler or adventurer. I wonder what importance that has. Has this been addressed yet?

Edit: Also, we didn't get to see much of his avatar to begin with. If I recall correctly, it was just once when he was about to attack Alisae. So maybe we really haven't seen the last of him.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

It's not over for Zenos. What is the "Bargain" he struck? I'm sure it wasn't "Let me gorge on the mother crystal and I'll save your WoL". And the way he was just left there. It feels like he'll be back but a different person tbh.

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I so hope that you are right and he'll be back and different, changed or beginning to change for the better. Thank you for thinking that!

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I have a feeling he may not be gone. Whether as the players we like it or not.

I mean it's weird that Zenos would be stuck in such an incredibly bad writing spot when other characters in similar positions were worked out of it. There's also dropped threads I would have liked answered at least ie, his ability to see the Final Days...and the Sharlayan discussion of what is going on with souls - Which they touched upon MSQ. Hythlodaeus doesn't recognize him. So I'd like it answered if the school of thought was that (sans his augmentation) he's a "new" soul mixed from others or an old soul people didn't know about.

Much of our Ancient history was lost due to events. It would be interesting if they find out how to restore certain knowledge (not so much going back to Ancient selves) so that there's a more sentimental way to honor Emet Selch's wish for all the people of the land with the major threat seeming to be gone.

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God, I hope you are right and that he will be back! You make a lot of good points as well.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Yoshi P said we should pay attention to Zenos's avatar in his reaper form. I wonder what he meant by that. His avatar is named viator, right? Which means traveler or adventurer. I wonder what importance that has. Has this been addressed yet?

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No, viator means banished or exiled. Garlemald threw him out and that's when his name changed.

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Originally Posted by Losara

I think rather than an enemy Zenos would make for a better side kick similar to how Estinien was pre-SB. Having learnt slightly more about him in EW I don't think he should be a villain as he doesn't seem to have the personality for it either.

I hope the remaining EW patches help to develop Zenos's character somewhat more.

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I agree with this 100% wholeheartedly! Thank you so much for posting this! I was really nervous about expressing my opinions on Zenos's story as I know that many outright dislike/hate him. So replies like yours help a lot. Thank you sincerely.

No thanks, he served his purpose as foil to the main character and had a satisfying exit. To undo this and try to cram a redemption arc would absolutely ruin his whole point for even existing, plus it's nice when a story (especially a JRPG) reminds us that not everyone is redeemable which is just a fact of life.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, viator means banished or exiled. Garlemald threw him out and that's when his name changed.

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I got the definition for viator from here but I could be wrong. But I guess you could say someone who is exiled is a traveler in a sense.

I like Zenos a lot, it was a fitting ending. At least for Endwalkers.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

It's not over for Zenos. What is the "Bargain" he struck? I'm sure it wasn't "Let me gorge on the mother crystal and I'll save your WoL". And the way he was just left there. It feels like he'll be back but a different person tbh.

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May I ask you what you think that bargain Zenos struck was really about?

I do want him to come back as some sort of anti-hero. I liked Zenos, and I want things to go forward, but not by removing him from everything and leaving him dead.
Like, I want him to get development. I didn't care about him until Endwalker, but then I was like "huh, he's actually a pretty cool character for an anti-hero rival sort of thing".

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

I do want him to come back as some sort of anti-hero. I liked Zenos, and I want things to go forward, but not by removing him from everything and leaving him dead.
Like, I want him to get development. I didn't care about him until Endwalker, but then I was like "huh, he's actually a pretty cool character for an anti-hero rival sort of thing".

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I'd kinda like to see him in an anti-hero role more often now that you mention it. Kinda like a Vegeta complex.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

May I ask you what you think that bargain Zenos struck was really about?

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I'm pretty sure it was honestly as simple as "I'll help save the universe with your WoL, if you give me a chance to fight him."

As much as I enjoy Zenos as a foil, he's an extremely simple character. He cares for nothing other than bloodshed and fighting someone who could kill him. The fight was really just a kill or be killed moment. And Zenos died. He fought, and he died doing what he loved, and died at the hands of someone whom he thought his equal (or even, at the end, greater than him. I'm sure he knew he was going to die.)

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

No thanks, he served his purpose as foil to the main character and had a satisfying exit. To undo this and try to cram a redemption arc would absolutely ruin his whole point for even existing, plus it's nice when a story (especially a JRPG) reminds us that not everyone is redeemable which is just a fact of life.

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Except Scions, right?

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Except Scions, right?

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If you can tell me the genocide they perpetrated or what puts them on the same scale of villainy as him, we can have that discussion.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

If you can tell me the genocide they perpetrated or what puts them on the same scale of villainy as him, we can have that discussion.

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So they deserve to come back time and time again just because they are the "good guys"?

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

So they deserve to come back time and time again just because they are the "good guys"?

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Not going to answer then? That's fine.

Being charitable however, if what you're actually trying to ask if why they get to live on in the story while he doesn't then refer to my first post in this thread that he has served his purpose and can finally rest as a plot device.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

So they deserve to come back time and time again just because they are the "good guys"?

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I'm pretty sure this does not really apply there : SilverObi was talking about "redemption", not "Extra life for the sake of it".

There's no way, with everything he's done that Zenos could get away like that. He is not redeemable. They already did that with Gaius in a way, although Zenos is yet at another higher level

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Originally Posted by Senn

I'd kinda like to see him in an anti-hero role more often now that you mention it. Kinda like a Vegeta complex.

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Now that I think about it Zenos is just like Vegeta. Originally Vegeta was only interested in his rivalry with Goku and afterwards found more things to care about.

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Originally Posted by Losara

Now that I think about it Zenos is just like Vegeta. Originally Vegeta was only interested in his rivalry with Goku and afterwards found more things to care about.

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That might be some interesting character development there. Slowly finding other things to care about as he tags along with you on occasion.

I haven't done the reaper quest, so I don't know the voidsent lore well enough yet, but we didn't actually kill Zenos's voidsent right? Apparently they need to be dealt with in a specific way or they won't die. So not only did Yoshi P tell us to pay attention to his avatar/voidsent thing... but I'm not even sure if it's dead. Maybe it could take over his body or prevent him from dying. And like I said before, there's dynamis - if we're thinking about scenarios in which Zenos could survive, these are some ideas you can play around with.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

So, please, please, SquareEnix, please Natsuko Ishikawa, please bring Zenos back and give him an in-depth redemption story where he can find genuine happiness, warmth, friendship and companionship at journey's end. Please show us all that even monsters are capable of overcoming their own darkness and baser instincts if given the chance. Please show us that we are strong enough, wise enough, kind enough, generous enough to truly forgive a monster and take their hand in ours in genuine affection and friendship. Please show us that after everything we've been through, after we've managed to even forgive and befriend Meteion, destroyer of worlds/stars/civilisations, we can surely forgive and befriend someone who has considered us his first and only friend for so many years.

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I couldn’t read the first part of this because I need paragraphs in order to fully comprehend arguments—otherwise I just go cross-eyed—but NO. Zenos does NOT need a redemption arc. He has no redeeming qualities to begin with, so a redemption arc would not work for him in any way so as to be believable. Any emotional depth that Zenos could have been given should have been given a looooong time ago. It’s too little, too late for a character like him to receive any sort of development at this stage. If you wanted development for him, it should have happened immediately after 4.0 finished. But we’re in 6.0 and he has done nothing other than obsess about fighting our character because reasons. He has not contributed to the plot of 4.x, 5.0, 5.x, or 6.0 in any meaningful way. He’s just sort of been there up until his VERY deus ex machina appearance at the very end of Endwalker.

TL;DR: Zenos is dead. He needs to stay dead this time. For good. I appreciated him far more as a character when he died at the end of 4.0. When he was brought back, all that appreciation disappeared.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Being charitable however, if what you're actually trying to ask if why they get to live on in the story while he doesn't then refer to my first post in this thread that he has served his purpose and can finally rest as a plot device.

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I've read your post, but my question still stands. How does he, even with what he did, doesn't deserve to come back, but Scions, that scarified themselves so many times just keep coming back as if nothing ever happened? Just because they are the "good guys" and Zenos is not?
I'm not trying to have a fight here btw, just curious.
Bad people can change too.

I think we did Zenos wrong. No matter what he done in the past. He was there at the end with us and helped us to save the World and it's Splitter. He deserves a comeback and while I think about it. Hydaelyn asked us if our Way was a good one and said then that she made a promise to us long long time ago. And no matter what promise that was, i have only 1 wish ... Zenos. I want to go with him on Adventures and the Job Quests in Shadowbringer gave us a Hint ... the 13 Shard. That is where I want to go with him and try to restore it with him together. He is my only friend, you cannot steal him from me.

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

I do want him to come back as some sort of anti-hero. I liked Zenos, and I want things to go forward, but not by removing him from everything and leaving him dead.
Like, I want him to get development. I didn't care about him until Endwalker, but then I was like "huh, he's actually a pretty cool character for an anti-hero rival sort of thing".

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I agree with you so much! So happy to see that there are people who have similar thoughts and feelings to me in regards to Zenos. Thank you for not giving up entirely on Zenos, seriously, thank you!

I definitely want Zenos back and with in-depth development. There are quite a few questions related to him that are left unanswered and I am super interested in finding out those answers.
Some of the questions I have about Zenos are:
- why did his mother die? more details about this
- what's that connection between Emet-Selch and Zenos, what did Emet-Selch do to/or discover about Zenos?
- details about his childhood, including about his relationship with his father when he was younger/a child (maybe seen via the Echo/as flashbacks)
- why is Zenos so strong, even before getting his Resonant?
- what exactly was experimented on him?
- what about Zenos's soul?
- why does Zenos dream of the Final Days?
- how come Zenos can see souls/colour of souls? that's a very rare ability
- the extent of Zenos's powers/abilities, before and after the Resonant
- how did Elidibus using his body affect Zenos, were there any abilities left over from Elidibus in Zenos's body?
- why doesn't Hythlodaeus recognise Zenos? who was Zenos originally? Was he an Ancient? Was he human or something else entirely?

I know there is a big theory out there that Zenos is one of Azem's sundered soul parts. I would want a lot of details about that, if it turns out to be true. Like for example, how come there can be two sundered parts of the same soul on the same star (the Source), as in, one soul being us the WoL and the other being Zenos? Because there should only be one soul part on each sundered star. So what caused this anomaly? Did Emet-Selch cause this anomaly because he was trying to bring Azem back so he experiemented on Zenos? And if Azem and Zenos are indeed the same soul, it would explain their interactions, especially Zenos's obsession with the WoL. Just like Ardbert was drawn to the WoL, maybe that's also why Zenos feels so drawn to the WoL, way beyond a reason for fighting.

Or maybe Emet-Selch infused part of his soul into Zenos, maybe knowing that he himself (Emet-Selch) will die/be killed due to his duty, but at the same time he wanted to leave something of himself back on the Source and near the WoL/Azem? Which may also explain Zenos's obsession with Azem?

These would be interesting things to explore in more details and I would love it so much to learn about all these things and even more, maybe something completely unexpected.

Oh, and personally I became invested in Zenos since Stormblood. His obsessive hunt of the WoL stood out to me since the very start, but what got me really invested in him was his suicide scene back in Stormblood. I could talk forever about that scene. But that one scene got me hooked, I remember being happy when I found out that he's actually alive and the mystery around him only got me more and more invested. Plus, of course, the extra stories about him/his childhood and all the subtle implications about his life and personality.

You know they done screwed up Zenos when the final fight had me LAUGHING at him getting back up. AGAIN.
Lord, I hope he stays dead this time.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I've read your post, but my question still stands. How does he, even with what he did, doesn't deserve to come back, but Scions, that scarified themselves so many times just keep coming back as if nothing ever happened? Just because they are the "good guys" and Zenos is not?
I'm not trying to have a fight here btw, just curious.
Bad people can change too.

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I never talked about "deserving" to come back. I said he served his purpose as our foil (our Vegeta as other posters have said) and had a relatively dignified death and got what he wanted, and that would be undone if he's just brought back and absolutely ruined if he was redeemed and became another Estinien-type (which is doing a disservice to Estinien). Again, I'm saying he served his role and it's time to let him rest at the risk of him becoming a joke character if he hasn't already.

Bad people can never change too.

I thought there wouldn't be anything they could do to make me dislike him more, but bringing him back and trying to redeem him would definitely do it.

I figured the bargain was that Krile told him where we were, he helped us against whatever it was that was getting in the way of our duel, and then we finally got to have it out where nothing and no one could interrupt us, and he lost? I never really liked him but I thought this was a fitting ending for him.

I wouldn't mind learning a bit more about him but he doesn't need to be alive for that, he's had 3 expansions now and I'd rather make way for a new villain than try and shoehorn him into the story any further just because.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I've read your post, but my question still stands. How does he, even with what he did, doesn't deserve to come back, but Scions, that scarified themselves so many times just keep coming back as if nothing ever happened? Just because they are the "good guys" and Zenos is not?
I'm not trying to have a fight here btw, just curious.
Bad people can change too.

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It’s my opinion that the writers doing another fakeout with the Scion’s sacrifices in Ultima Thule actually lessened the emotional impact of that entire area for me. Because I knew they weren’t actually dead, I lost interest in all of their monologues with the lost civilizations and their “noble sacrifices”. I’m tired of death fakeouts and ready for some people to actually stay dead for once.

As I said above, I had more appreciation for Zenos when he died at the end of 4.0. But all of that disappeared when he came back—and it really didn’t help that they did absolutely nothing with his character. But I don’t think he’s redeemable. Even Yotsuyu wasn’t redeemable—yet the storyline they gave her in 4.2 and 4.3 was really good. And she was a better written character for it. They didn’t try to force this redemption arc on her because she didn’t need one. She didn’t deserve one. And neither does Zenos. Bringing him back ruins the ending of Endwalker—and do we really want to do that AGAIN?

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

I know there is a big theory out there that Zenos is one of Azem's sundered soul parts. I would want a lot of details about that, if it turns out to be true. Like for example, how come there can be two sundered parts of the same soul on the same star (the Source), as in, one soul being us the WoL and the other being Zenos? Because there should only be one soul part on each sundered star. So what caused this anomaly? Did Emet-Selch cause this anomaly because he was trying to bring Azem back so he experiemented on Zenos? And if Azem and Zenos are indeed the same soul, it would explain their interactions, especially Zenos's obsession with the WoL. Just like Ardbert was drawn to the WoL, maybe that's also why Zenos feels so drawn to the WoL, way beyond a reason for fighting.

Or maybe Emet-Selch infused part of his soul into Zenos, maybe knowing that he himself (Emet-Selch) will die/be killed due to his duty, but at the same time he wanted to leave something of himself back on the Source and near the WoL/Azem? Which may also explain Zenos's obsession with Azem?

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This would ruin two of the best characters in this game. Our entire backstory as Azem is perfect. Emet-Selch is one of the best villains in FFXIV, if not the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole. Shoehorning Zenos into the stories of these two characters would just kill both of them. It would feel way too much like some sort of forced fanservice in my opinion.

Zenos needs to stay dead. He has served what little purpose Natsuko would give him given the terrible state of his character when he landed in her lap, and that should be the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Senn

That might be some interesting character development there. Slowly finding other things to care about as he tags along with you on occasion.

I haven't done the reaper quest, so I don't know the voidsent lore well enough yet, but we didn't actually kill Zenos's voidsent right? Apparently they need to be dealt with in a specific way or they won't die. So not only did Yoshi P tell us to pay attention to his avatar/voidsent thing... but I'm not even sure if it's dead. Maybe it could take over his body or prevent him from dying. And like I said before, there's dynamis - if we're thinking about scenarios in which Zenos could survive, these are some ideas you can play around with.

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I didn't know about all those possible implications related to Reaper and Zenos being a Reaper as I haven't levelled Reaper yet. Thank you for bringing them up. You've certainly given me more hope now. And Zenos's survival being tied to his Reaper job and Avatar would be really interesting. And Dynamis playing a role in this as well, yes, that's also interesting.

I keep thinking about his death scene, his last words. His last question to us "Did you find...fulfillment?" and if you pay close attention to the way he says "fulfillment", in my opinion, his voice breaks when he says that word, it doesn't sound like a person who found fulfillment themselves. And he follows that question of his with "I..." and then stops/dies. That always breaks me. He doesn't sound like a happy person who is now dying. There is no smile on his face, no joy in his voice. He even said "gone too soon". He doesn't sound like someone who wants to die, who is happy with what he's achieved. I've gone over that scene literally dozens of time by now, analysing the hell out his words, his facial expressions, the tone of his voice. None of that, his words or tone of voice, sounds happy/at peace/ready to move on. He just sounds filled with regrets, maybe even pain and sorrow.