In this time between Shadowbringers and Endwalker, come walk with me and see how crafting and gathering are faring.
TL;DR
- If you don't enjoy crafting or gathering, you shouldn't feel like you have to do it! You should be able to easily make gil doing what you like and find people who will sell you the crafted and gathered products you want. The hidden Holy Trinity is crafter, gatherer, and customer.
- If you do take up crafting and/or gathering, you should be welcomed by a system as easy to pick up and hard to master as combat, with something for every skill level throughout the process.
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12-03-2021, 12:04 AMAurelle_DeresnelsA Place for Everyone - An Open Letter on the Future of Crafting and Gathering
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12-03-2021, 01:27 AMIllmaeran
Making Gil by doing quests, weekly challenges, and roulettes is very easy. You don't get the large hits of income from selling a big ticket item, but you do get steady income just by doing the things you'd normally do. I've been an omnicrafter and gatherer since ARR and until the advent of Coffee Biscuits, made comparable money from routine PVE content. I'm about as casual as it comes concerning crafting and playing the market. I don't care to spend the time needed to make and manage sales of super high-end or rare things and consider myself fairly representative of the general crafting/gathering populace. I still make reliable, if more modest, income from desynthesis and crafting the occasional thing to put on the MB and leave the Marketboard Extreme to those with the inclination. Could I make the kind of money they do? Sure I could, but the return isn't worth the effort.
The system of getting into crafting and achieving the level/gear required to make everything if you want is stupidly easy. Mastering the use of skills and point resources is harder. This is where the highest-end crafters live and they get the financial reward for their effort in the way of making big ticket items to sell.
For the rest of us there are things like GC turn-ins, Custom Deliveries, Levequests, and Marketboard (Story Mode) available to make good money over time.
As far as finding people to buy your stuff, that's what the market board's for. Lately I've been making gear for new retainers as they level and don't want to spend the time collecting and processing the raw materials so I buy them from the MB. Keep in mind, I can gather and craft anything I want or need. I wanted to play what I liked/felt like doing and used the MB to find people who would sell the crafted and gathered products I wanted. A good way to think of it is the MB is the intermediary that introduces the supplier and customer to each other. Is this a face to face exchange of request and product? No, that would require a dedicated trade chat channel and we all know how well those work out.
The things that are killing the market for low-end and mid-core crafters are valuable crafted items now coming from lockboxes and ventures. The sheer volume of these items hitting the market by non-crafters tanks the price in short order after people are able to craft them. The other cause is bots. The legitimate crafter player now has game design itself and a horde of mindless competition flooding the market.
What are our options as mid-cores? Find a niche to exploit and utilize the above regular turn-ins for steady money. They're dependable, predictable, non-competitive ways to earn gil.
tl;dr - Entry into DoH/DoL and progress to mid-core are easy. Mastering is hard. Banging your head against the MB competition is insane, but is where the big money comes from. Making good money as mid-core is 100% possible, if slower but more steady. -
12-03-2021, 02:58 AMAurelle_DeresnelsMy very first example is of one person locking up the MB on an essential item, preventing suppliers and customers from matchmaking. Isn't that a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
My Examples 7 and 8 cover exactly that! Isn't that also a problem, that players who want to have fun in the markets can't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
(continued below) -
12-03-2021, 02:59 AMAurelle_Deresnels
(continued from above)
Then why are new players constantly stumbling over it and frustrated, as in Example 6? Why are players not being taught even the fundamentals of crafting, as in Example 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
Except that they don't - in Example 4 I noted how the hardest tradeable crafts have their markets flooded within hours. Even the hardest untradeable crafts get completely crushed by high-end crafters, people stunt run them using the previous expansion's gear. "Hard to master" isn't happening either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
Sure, you're making money, but are you having fun? Did you really enjoy feeding the Crystarium levemete hundreds of Coffee Biscuits, or was it a boring routine?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
Could you be having more fun with a better system? We come to Hydaelyn to have fun, the gil is merely a part of the system in which we might do so.
I wrote this to both ask and answer how all players might enjoy the game more. It's not just long to be long. -
12-03-2021, 04:01 AMMiette_Marfil
I read most of your doc. It just sounds like you have an idea of how you want the market to be, and it isn't. Everyone can choose to be a crafter and gathering. You have to be competitive; it's as simple as that.
I do agree that lockboxes should have different items in them as you do. -
12-03-2021, 05:08 AMSaraphin
As someone that started in ARR, and seeing the firmament come into fruition...it has allowed MANY PLAYERS to come into DoL/DoH on an entry to mid-tier level.
it is BECAUSE of the firmament that many crafters do not know such things like Inner Quiet. I'm not saying that power leveling is a bad thing, but, like any other class/job, it's coming to an understanding of the job skills, which to use and which not to use optimally.
Look at crafting like one would any sort of art:
Level 1: Introduction to the craft. A Novice.
Level 50-last level beneath current Cap: you're getting there, learning more and more. a Journeyman
Current Top Level (adjust as needed for level cap) you're an expert.
Top Level AND knowing what your skills do: "you're a Master".
It's just like learning any skill in life. you have to learn and while the firmament is a good quick tool (I do use it for leveling those in my alts) for getting levels, but you have to learn the skills, look at your skills and develop those skills, just like any other job and class.
and if your Endgame is an Omnicrafter, you have to learn to play the market. it's that simple. you have to gather mats, hold onto some because they're cheap right now but make a special item...and wait. putting them up either at a high price, or at a logical price.
Using the "Other" Tab of the PF is also a way to get your goods sold at a reasonable pace.
RE: Crafted High Level Star Gear: sometimes, it is BiS for raiders (not often) however...it's not meant to be the end gear, it's for getting butts in the door to get the higher gear/get into 8 and 24 man content to be able to get the better gear. it's the "Foyer to Content/Tomestone Gear" so to speak. -
12-03-2021, 06:21 AMJojoyaI know many players who make lots of gil doing what they like. They don't craft or gather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
Sorry, I don't believe that players should be able to make gil by AFKing at the Limsa Aetheryte. If you want to make gil, do something productive to earn it.
There are no essential items that can only be acquired from the MB. You're already twisting thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
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12-03-2021, 06:00 PMAurelle_DeresnelsI want the whole game to adhere to the principles that we are all here for, that combat so ably demonstrates. Is that such a radical idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miette_Marfil
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12-03-2021, 06:31 PMAurelle_DeresnelsI agree! I have a subsection covering exactly how the Firmament trains new crafters OUT of learning how to craft!Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraphin
How do you think I take preorders and patch day orders?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraphin
I'm completely aware of this and so are the raiders who buy my crafted gear. They want it for the item level to get into third and fourth floors on week 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraphin
(It's important to distinguish crafted combat gear from crafted noncombat gear here. The crafting and gathering gear is generally BiS when pentamelded!) -
12-03-2021, 07:02 PMAurelle_DeresnelsRaiders very much have essential supplies. You don't have to take my word for it, go ahead and ask Thoughts Per Second or some similar top static if they would go without food, potions, or crafted gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
And what is a raider to do when they want 3 food and the MB is blocked up, shout in Limsa? Commissioning such a small quantity is obviously unreasonable for both sides. (And yes, there are people who clear the entire tier week 1 in PF.)
Then why does every third raider I meet ask me what to grind to sustain the price of their raid supplies? Clearly they're not making much gil doing what they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
You're the one twisting things and trying to put words in my mouth. How could you miss that the opening picture is the start of the virtual walk? (Where on Hydaelyn would it start other than the main market hub?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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12-05-2021, 06:57 AMJojoyaThose supplies don't have to be sold through the marketboard. You're confusing the marketboard with crafting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
I used to sell to raiders direct instead of through the marketboard. I could sell to them cheap that way (didn't want my cheap stuff being bought and relisted by another player for profit) and neither of us had to worry about marketboard tax.
Raiders make a considerable amount of gil though they'll never tell you that. Like most people, they're looking to pay less for what they want and so they're not about to talk about how much gil they have.
You're the one who said
There's a crazy number of people who like AFKing at the Limsa Aetheryte. I'm surprised you've never noticed them since you're complaining about people blocking your way to the MB (even though you can easily pop into a housing ward and get to a marketboard in those empty zones much easier).Quote:
You should be able to easily make gil doing what you like
Your initial post seemed to be the based around the idea that the only way to make gil is to craft and sell things on the MB. That's just flat out wrong. It's a very good way to make gil but it is not the only way. -
12-08-2021, 04:45 AMAurelle_DeresnelsI'm sorry, was I insufficiently clear in my first example, or did you not read it? How is a raider supposed to find a crafter for a direct sale when they're in a Party Finder party that might fill at any moment? They can't join another Party Finder listing, they can't wait around, and previously they couldn't World Visit either. To the MB it is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
My second example is purely about the new player experience of learning crafting. So is my sixth with a broader scope over crafting and gathering, including hearing from Free Trial players who cannot trade at all. My fourth and tenth examples are about commission crafting, done off the MB. My eighth example even covers the experience of combat players running treasure maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Further, my first two problem areas are likewise not about the MB.
How is this confusing the MB with crafting?
(continued below) -
12-08-2021, 04:45 AMAurelle_Deresnels
(continued from above)
Making gil by what means, selling clears? RMT clear selling is very much against TOS. Even buyer-dead gil-only sales are a considerable burden on both time and skill to arrange, and they tend to just encourage the buyers to RMT buy the gil and the sellers to RMT sell the results. What's a TOS-compliant raider to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I'm a raider myself. I know the process well, and my customers know that, so they can't and won't hide it from me. Melding up prog gear doesn't make gil, even for those who skip crafted gear. Wiping for hours, running down food timers and breaking one's gear, doesn't make gil. Pushing to clear - chugging down potions - doesn't make gil. And when one finally does clear, the loot is almost all untradable... and you guessed it, doesn't make gil!
Sure crafting isn't the only way, but it's flatly wrong to claim that every form of reasonable systems engagement is making gil in a TOS-compliant manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Raiding doesn't, as I just described. Solo and small group treasure maps no longer do because their drops are crashed by bot rings, leaving map gatherers in the unenviable position of having to sell to bots or get off the MB. Combat materia is so abundant that it fails to be a reward for all sorts of combat content, from dungeons to hunts to Deep Dungeons to relic zones, as aptly stated in this thread - which you were in, so surely you know this!
(continued below) -
12-08-2021, 04:46 AMAurelle_Deresnels
(continued from above)
Why are you glossing over all those systems problems by framing it as purely between crafting and AFKing? Are you trying to argue against the stupidest-sounding possible position instead of my actual points?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
You're the one who jumped from
toQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
Or are you selecting only the personal experiences that suit you to gloss over the problems? You saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
yet you've made replies all over threads like the ongoing market botting thread, constantly dismissing those player experiences. Clearly you know that there are plenty of unhappy players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I titled my post "A Place for Everyone" for a reason. "Some" or even "many" is not "everyone". (And don't go on about accommodating bots or RMT - you know what I mean!)
The people who just want to AFK or chat in Limsa already have their place just fine - gil is not so much as helpful for that activity, so they are not bothered by not earning any. I'm advocating for the players who don't have their places: the sprouts trained out of learning to craft and gather, the map runners, the new commission crafters, the players promised noncombat systems as deep as combat and not getting them... raiders are merely one obvious example, since raiding has the greatest practical need for crafted items while producing next to no tradable outputs.
(continued below) -
12-08-2021, 04:48 AMAurelle_Deresnels
(continued from above)
I made no such complaint. The MB locking I noted in my first example was of one person putting up 100 listings of the same item at bulk prices, blocking the listing search results for any non-bulk stacks regardless of physical access to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
(And I know where my "Target Nearest NPC or Object" keybind is, so it doesn't matter whether players are standing by the board. I'm surprised you haven't learned that it makes player model congestion irrelevant, since you're so focused on AFK players. It's such a commonly given piece of advice for any time player models are densely packed...)
If you didn't read my post, that's one thing, but don't assume the contents without reading. There's a modern proverb: "When you assume, you make an a** out of u and me." So if you'd like to have a real discussion, please read what I wrote so we can stop having such misunderstandings. -
12-12-2021, 08:26 AMJojoyaI did read what you wrote. I disagree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
Shall we start from scratch? Here's your original post:
No one needs to feel like they have to craft or gather. There are plenty of other ways to make gil in the game and purchase the items they want. There are only 2 types of content that do not reward gil - Gold Saucer and PvP. I'd actually like to see SE add in ways for PvP to earn gil for those who focus on PvP, such as selling the furnishing purchased with Wolf Marks on the MB similar to how we can sell most furnishings purchased with GC seals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
Crafter/gatherer/marketboard is not a Holy Trinity.
Crafting and gathering are extremely easy to pick up for those who are interested in doing so. Just like combat jobs, if you level as intended instead of trying to skip instantly to max level, you will learn how to craft and gather. Just like combat jobs if you're not good at figuring out what to do, there are plenty of online guides to help.
There's profit to be made from crafting/gathering at every skill level. -
01-15-2022, 09:23 AMAurelle_DeresnelsThen why do I constantly hear from people saying they feel forced to craft and gather? Whether to repair their own gear in raids or to make gil, I get that complaint on a regular basis. You still seem to be ignoring plenty of players, including raiders not making any gil from raiding without selling carries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I said "customer", not "marketboard". And it's three roles that each need the others to function - what else would you call it? Sure, sometimes multiple can be fulfilled by the same person, but that's just as true of combat; witness everything from solo and BLU content to Eureka and Bozja.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I've literally already linked you tons of examples otherwise, ranging from players earnestly trying and failing to pick up crafting and gathering, to those turned away at endgame from lack of profit - and even turned away from combat endgames due to crafting and gathering problems!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Stop cherry-picking just the player experiences you want to hear and dismissing everyone else. You may be having a good time, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. -
01-15-2022, 02:14 PMJojoyaI can't tell you why they feel forced when it is not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
Some samples of other ways to earn gil:
Challenge log
Daily roulettes
Treasure map parties
Retainer ventures
FATEs
Battle leves
Side quests
Hunt bills
That's not an exhaustive list by any means and some of that content offers not only gil but additional rewards that can be converted to gil (or can save you from spending gil by buying Aetheryte tickets with hunt currency).
It is true that someone needs to level the appropriate DoH classes if they want to repair their own gear. That's not the same as making gil.
How on earth are people failing to level crafting/gathering after the changes SE made in Shadowbringers? Why aren't the forums filled with cries of "SE, crafting and gathering are too hard, I can't learn!"? It's because it's not a problem. There's still the occasional complaint of "it takes too long to level them" but there are no complaints about them being too hard.
If you're going to repeat the claims about how there's no profit in crafting/gathering end game anymore, you're contradicting yourself to argue for the sake of argument.
When did this discussion move from "crafting/gathering are mandatory to make gil" to "Players aren't having fun"? If someone isn't having fun, they need to do the smart thing and find a new game to play. This game isn't going to be right for everyone just as other games aren't right for me. -
01-16-2022, 02:44 AMAirget
I would say that given where in the 6.X series of the game, one thing that crafters are severely missing out on is application through other side content. By this I mean, I understand why they wouldn't want to give Crafters/gatherers a heavy handed reliance when it comes to clearly challenging raid content aka Savage/Extreme/Ultimate however, they should be willing to experiment more with crafter reliance/support when it comes to content like say Deep Dungeon or Eureka/Bozja. I don't recall anything for Bozja, but for Eureka they did have the "Potion of Harmony" which only served to increase xp gains in said area but it would be nice if they considered doing more.
Like I imagine, if they did expand on the "Limited Job" System we might of seen in depth PuppetMaster and Beastmaster design where the main gimmick was you have to go out and search for materials to get certain combination, aka automaton parts/food to call beast. So for Puppet you would use the 6 gear crafters to produce parts for the Puppetmaster meanwhile for Beastmaster they would use a combination of Alchemist/Culinary consumables to tame/call upon their tamed beast.
Anyway, for extra content like restoration/relic quest, it would be nice if there were supplemental crafting recipes that could help give you an extra edge when completing the content. Rather than everything tied to a resource that only drops off mobs, what if players had the choice of say, with Bozja, instead of turning in the fragments to get lost abilities, you could have a crafter refine it so that it could be turned in for the specific lost ability you were looking for. So rather than relying on the rng of 50% or say 10% of getting the ability you were aiming for, you could use other gathered materials in the open world and reduce the excess mats in order to produce an end result that can help to reduce the overall RNG involved with the acquisition of certain abilities.
In a way, aside from the way they changed certain recipes in Restoration, I feel crafters in general have a rather stagnant gameplay flow, where they are somewhat needed at the start of a savage raid push but then they are slowly pushed aside only to be called upon to quick synth non-hq items which only require them to have the min needed to craft it. Even then it's far and few in between.
One thing that I think becomes painfully obvious when you look at the current game flow is the items that are crafted are released in a very drip-feed method. If you look at each crafter, only 3 crafts have a unique Master Recipe that comes from a "rare" drop Armorcraft, Cothcraft and Leathercraft. I feel within each cycle all 8 should have some rare master recipe item that comes from a rare drop within the game to at least keep that aspect of crafting balanced. When you take a step back and notice how rare loot is currently being released, it ends up being the most common loot in the game because it's the only unique thing players can focus on so it loses all it's luster/value from how over-farmed it becomes. I would like to think that once they expand Housing enough to give everyone a house they could in theory expand the rare recipes to be more focused on housing items without feeling like people are missing out since everyone would start to be able to get a house. Maybe Sanctuary will add a plethora of synthing recipes and Gathering needs which in turn would solve the issue I have above but in the games current state and without the actual knowledge of how Sanctuary may or may not affect DOL/DOH I can only express what I feel those classes need in the future to make them more interesting to play.
At first I thought I stopped doing crafting because I didn't want to deal with the melding, but in all honesty it wasn't the melding that caused me to stop crafting during one of the patch cycles, it was how barren the options were for Master Recipes and what crafters could exactly do. Unless you are an alchemist/culinary your choice of DOH is pretty much worthless because you have a finite usefulness compared to those 2 that can produce consumables for players.
Even with Restoration, while yes a lot of people might of been picking up and leveling crafters it was all for a finite goal in which the competitive nature of it was ruined by the fact that people could literally turn in items 24/7 with no limitation. So if you had a job goodluck trying to get the Top Rank title. I felt during that introduction, in a content in which we were suppose to be working together to help restore a ward to a livable state I feel it would of made more sense to offer titles based on hitting a threshold of support towards the cause since that in itself was flawed. Since one server could need 300k to get first meanwhile another had 900k to be first there was this imbalance in the competition that honestly after I had barely missed the cut off of getting the 1-12 title because I was still pulling 40hrs during the start of the pandemic while everyone else who was told to stay home did, I just gave up on actively doing the restoration content. It just wasn't fun to know that there was nothing stopping people from spamming their way to the top compared to people who had limited time to achieve a similar goal.
I do hope if they do add a new restoration content they balance it out more to either level the player field or just base it on how much influence you have towards the cause. Not everything needs to be a competitive fight, but a time constraint one in which your deeds are recognized for hitting certain thresholds while still recognizing those who scored high through a leaderboard could still keep it more friendly rather than a heavy handed advantage towards those who can easily grind and not have to worry about going to work or even work from home lol. -
01-18-2022, 10:24 PMIllmaeranPeople think they have to because that's what most content creators make videos for and the general social media going player base talks about. My main's max DoH/DoL and makes decent, but not huge money. Right now on my data center the most profitable thing is selling raw materials, not crafted items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelle_Deresnels
I also get a good chunk of gil each day from doing roulettes and the challenge log. My alt doesn't have any gathering or crafting jobs and earns enough money just by doing quests, roulettes, and the challenge log (passively) to buy whatever random glamour, mount, or pet I might want when I feel like it. Will she have tens of millions of gil at her disposal? Probably not, but she's always had more than enough to cover all expenses.
Having to play the Marketboard to earn gil is primarily based on social media pushing EARN ALL TEH GILZ NAO and trying to make as much as one possibly can and the perception in the community that you're doing something wrong if you have less than 100 million gil. This isn't real life where we have to plan for retirement or emergencies; as long as you've got enough to pay your expenses and buy that random thing when the desire hits, you're doing fine. -
02-13-2022, 07:10 AMAurelle_DeresnelsThank you for sharing your experience and ideas for improvement! I'm glad to hear from more people and perspectives, especially since I hadn't heard about the Potion of Harmony before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airget
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02-13-2022, 07:38 AMAurelle_DeresnelsYet that's not what I'm hearing and what I discussed. I frequently hear from people who can't afford things they need to play the content they're interested in, such as raid prog gear and consumables, or duelling / Delubrum Reginae Savage consumables, or so on. The time and energy they have to do roulettes and Challenge Log isn't sustaining their expenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmaeran
And wanting to repair one's own gear isn't replaceable by not crafting, not as a raider. Just last week I had a P4S (Pandemonium 4 Savage) group that had to leave the instance early - giving up a very valuable checkpoint for prog - because the BLM's gear had been completely smashed to 0 durability and they couldn't repair it in the instance. (It's not that they forgot to repair, it's that dying a lot is a normal and practically necessary part of prog.) Even in non-checkpoint fights, it saves a great deal of time and frustration not to have to leave the instance to repair; I once heard from an Ultimate raider who told me that even though Ultimates don't checkpoint at all, they still wanted to make their entire static level crafters just for the sake of in-instance repairs. -
02-27-2022, 01:08 PMhotakako
I skimed through the important segments that I thought through about it during my experiences. Personally, my responses might be more bias towards the DoH/DoL because i do like the crafting aspect. So that's the first thing.
In my FC, there are several raiders who managed to get thru without "getting their hands dirty" since there are omnicrafters that are kind enough to provide gears for them, sometimes even for free. This fact did make me wonder on why should crafters work so hard to gather mats, sit through hours to craft the materials, and finally, to craft the final piece of gear.
I made my own set, and I can say it's rather time consuming. When i checked the MB, for the (classical set) latest craftable set in EW, i was rather shocked. It was only 1 week since the recipes are out, yet the prices had went so low. It's just not rewarding considering the time, and effort taken to gather mats, and the pentamelding part was hell.
I do think that, it is not totally the game's fault. I do think it is due to the delay of EW release though. During the two weeks of delay, many players (at least in my friendlist) are all taking up odd jobs like crafting and gathering to spend time. That has probably contributed to a lot of new crafters well equipped to tackle the new recipes.
This is quite supported (i think) on the influx of players buying crafting materia to quickly get their melds on point. The materia prices often shoot up to high prices, far higher than those classicial gear that are crafted through the help of those materia.
However, as time goes by, many of those new crafters decided to stop crafting because "it is waste of time when i can just buy my stuff from the MB"
P.S
As a complaint, I do not like the challenge content for DoL/DoH.
Seems like plenty of those are basically a luck-based game.
Like failing a hasty touch on a Centered proc
Waiting for your Primed/Pliant by paying CP and hope it comes next, but you realise you have burnt almost 100CP without hitting any.
And the rotations (Basic Touch --> Standard Touch -->... ) so on, are rather useless in the expert crafts. They cost way too much CP.