So I was on the bird app, and an artist I follow by the handle of Onionoholic was musing about why, "Ardbert and Co have level 50 AF, but Norvrandt's monsters are level 70?"
Most people responded with jokes, glamours, or the same tired line of, "Gameplay and story segregation."
I opted to shitpost about their gear being made of, "chadsteel" instead of darksteel in response(since Norvrandt does have access to better materials via gathering), but while I was at it a realization occurred to me because I can never joke for very long when thinking about this topic.
The First was pushed to the brink of annihilation by the Flood of Light. However, this Flood was stopped by Minfilia and the souls of Ardbert's companions. It left The First desolate, except for Norvrandt.
What then happened to Norvrandt's Lifestream? Well... it continued to exist and go on, containing every soul and every mote of aether that the planet held in its aetherial plane. It must have, because for over a hundred years, new lives continued to be birthed, and souls continued to flow back to into living bodies under new identities.
At the same time, the world was primed and set back to its primed state from its flood state for a Rejoining. All the Ascians had to do was completely rend the dimensional veil separating the Source and The First with a properly aspected calamity on the Source.
So the walls keeping their aetherial realms apart was thin, too.
I postulate that all of the aether of the First then became concentrated in Norvrandt, enriching and empowering the life that remained. I also think that it's possible that aether from the Source may have been leaking through the seams of the dimensional veil, further enriching the life and land that was left to conduct the aether.
Combine that on top of survival being naturally challenging, leading to the tough or the lucky surviving.
Further still, given Norvrandt's proximity to concept crystals of the original monster beings... is it not possible that some of those had been out and about in Norvrandt, interbreeding with fauna of a similar nature?
This leads me to think about why the Endwalkers monsters will be 81+. Well, devilish experiments using the concept crystals of the Ancients combined with Allagan/Telo tech.
I know you probably still view it as just... gameplay story segregation, but I really don't think it's that far of a reach!
-
11-21-2021, 11:37 PMVyrerusLudonarrative Dissonance and the Level of Field Monsters in Norvrandt
-
11-22-2021, 12:37 AMdreamfisherThis reminds me of the devolution of dragons on the Source, but in reverse. A great concentration of aether would naturally, through many generations, lead to more powerful life forms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
Though my understanding was that the aether is all still there, just inactive—in the form of The Empty. I wasn't taking notes during the Eden questline, so I could be wrong about how that all works. -
11-22-2021, 01:38 AMYianKutku
I still giggle at the thought of the one Treant in the level 80 SCH capstone quest, who could probably solo all of ARR by itself (assuming it's immune to tempering and such).
-
11-22-2021, 02:28 PMVyrerusHow about them level 80 Ala Mhigan bandits? That X'ruhn Tia and Aria were kind enough to merely subdue. Meanwhile the ones that assailed the WoL? Dusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
The other option, apart from writing a treatise on the hows or blaming "chadsteel" is that the WoL has some issues. They just pretend that everything's been leveling up with them as they go, so that they don't feel bad about routing all the people they gotta beat up. -
11-23-2021, 03:14 AMKranel_San
People don't want to contend with gameplay reasons, eh?
What are you guys going to explain next? The loot from ex and savage? -
11-23-2021, 04:25 AMMansionWell obviously you tell tales of fighting a ferocious foe that you write in books, that you give to weaponsmith and armourer so they get inspired and create better gear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kranel_San
I don't know about totems tho -
11-23-2021, 08:04 AMAlleluiaFar as I'm aware, this is accurate. And I think it cuts a sizable hole in the OP's idea. The aether of the entire planet didn't get pushed to Norvrandt or into the lifestream with the flood. The flood of light was more like a flashfreeze in the sense it froze any aether in place that it came into contact with, locking it there in stasis. I'm sure Norvrandt saw an influx of aether from anyone who actually managed to run from the flood into the region, but I doubt it was much.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamfisher
Now Norvrandt is the only outlet of the First's lifestream, so it also receives anything that was in there at the time and has a bit of a cushion when it comes to material for new souls. Though, really, I doubt there's been a much of a population boom in Norvrandt over the last century, what with the apocalypse and everything, so needing more material for life to be born than is available is likely not a concern. -
11-23-2021, 04:52 PMVyrerusI will point out that the only aether left in The Empty is that of Eden itself and the ambient aether. It is the ambient aether that is corrupted, such that spending too much time out there either kills you or turns you into a sin eater. All living aether was expunged, either by Sin Eater transformation or death. That was 9/10ths of the world's population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia
So a huge bulk of it came to Norvrandt as Sin Eaters, at the very least. We also know that people who died in the Flood reincarnated in Norvrandt, Gaia among them, and she was at the epicenter of the start of the Flood. This means that the aether that carries the soul to the Lifestream was not corrupted or stagnated by the Flood.
It's not a perfect musing, but it is something to consider. -
11-23-2021, 05:36 PMCleretic
The way leveling works in this game is, I think, just a useful way of showing that while we're getting stronger and progressing in strength, we are not gods.
Rabid dogs do not suddenly become completely harmless because you got jacked as hell. The reason we keep finding similar adds in ever-increasing level ranges isn't because they're getting as absurdly strong as we are; it's because we actually aren't. A rabid dog is always going to be a threat to a human being, no matter how many UFC championships they've won.
In fact, perhaps more helpfully, you can compare the big-ticket enemies of every expansion to see that we're not actually progressing in power as much as you'd think if you were religious about levels. Nidhogg and Shinryu, who had the exact same power source, would reasonably be about equal in power (hell, I'd actually say Shinryu should be weaker, since there's less aether in the eye-batteries); and while they have some crazier tricks up their sleeves, when it comes down to a straight-up fight Hades and the Warrior of Light aren't much stronger. Once Hydaelyn takes the three primals out of Ultima Weapon, it's about as strong as the VIIth Legion's Weapons, just with a bit more wear and tear.
We are not in Dragon Ball Z, we aren't bearing down on progressively more absurd power levels. -
11-23-2021, 06:13 PMVyrerus*looks at Monk job questline*Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
*Looks at the beam battle between Shinryu and Omega*
*Watches Louisoix contest Teraflare and Bahamut*
Y-yeah... Not like Dragonball Z or any other power escalation anime at all... nope. >.>;
End expansion bosses are somewhat hard to compare, due to having differing circumstances with vague temporary powerups for the fight or power downs on the bad guys.
2.0 Hydaelyn Assisted
2.5 Nabriales - We do it ourselves
3.0 We do it ourselves
3.3 Nidhogg = Hraesvelgr Eyeball assist
4.0 We do it ourselves, but it's Zenos's first time mantling a primal... on screen? Not sure if he's really bringing Shinryu's full might to bear.
5.0 Blessing assisted, but it fizzles before the end, and only really helps us break out of the chains and augments our already formidable Ardbert-propelled might until Hades engulfs it.
5.3 We do it ourselves.
I mean, obviously there are other bosses and raid bosses, and it's not completely uphill like an escalation anime, but in general it kind of is.
Like by Stormblood, M'naago who's known us for all of a day, but knows our reputation just assumes we'll have no problem whatsoever with any type of Magitek armor. For the WoL, there was definitely a point where ordinary things stopped being a real threat, which is why scenes like the sleeping drugged tea feel so contrived. -
11-23-2021, 06:28 PMYianKutkuOne of the funniest bits of Stormblood was when the party splits up to look for something or other, and when you meet up with Lyse again, she's just hanging around the wreckage of at least one Magitek armour surrounding her. She doesn't even mention them; encountering and breaking Imperial Magitek Armour is just something to do in passing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
I figure M'naago was assuming that we were at least on par with Lyse, and so of course we wouldn't be bothered by any type of Magitek armour. -
11-23-2021, 07:08 PMMansionNot absurd, but we are getting stronger (as you say yourself indeed), and I wonder what will happen as they are talking about carrying FFXIV for years and years. WoW had a janky power level of its players, going only up until Legion where I believe players had the power to fight Titans (which is a big deal in WoW lore), because of power creeping and strong artefacts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
FFXIV has examples of us transcending limits previously known, especially in jobs. On the top of my head, it is quite a big deal in the SMN quests that we transition to Trances and Demi primals because Egis are the previously known "cap" of summoning magic. White Mages kind of transcend Conjury in Shadowbringers when they use Glare and Dia instead of Stone and Aero (although I think this is a Dev comment, not in game as ShB had no real job quests).
I also think level shouldn't mean too much, it's more a gimmicky thing to help us visualize our progress. But I do think we are getting closer to "absurd" levels of power within FFXIV's lore with time, we are currently looking into ways to prevent the apocalypse. And we have saved the First because we could slurp that Sineater juice better than anyone (although it wasn't a resilient solution).
But, FFXIV does introduce situations and characters that limit our strength too. Ran'jit is a good example, he is a great match to our power because he doesn't shine from powers we are immune to. Our echo and blessing don't do shit against pure strength, that was the case during our first encounters with Zenos too...
Anyway. I'm overthinking until December 3rd. -
11-23-2021, 08:03 PMClereticRan'jit is another perfect example of how the WoL's individual strength isn't at the ridiculous scale some think it is. Because there is, explicitly, nothing special about Ran'jit beyond that he's very well-trained in combat; he's got the trope I've seen in a few bits of Japanese media of 'this character you assumed was superhuman in some way is revealed at the end to be Just That Good' (see also: Master Asia in G Gundam, Jetstream Sam in Metal Gear Rising). It also gels pretty well with the duels in Bozja; most of those duels are against a single person at the height of their chosen discipline, without some additional amp-up or trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansion
Which I think gives us a workable power scale of where the WoL actually is; they can keep pace with the greatest warrior of a discipline, one-on-one, without any tricks on either side, while not necessarily being a sure bet in any of those fights. ...well, while also respecting that in this world, any given discipline at its peak could be capable of a giant laser beam. That's absolutely someone you want on hand to stop the apocalypse... who also still has to worry if a rabid dog turns up, and who might still need about seven friends to fight a Gundam. -
11-24-2021, 12:35 PMFloortankThese are sharp thoughts. I enjoyed your post and gave it a "like."Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
In my opinion you're overthinking levels though. Levels are just a number that gives us a context for what is a huge abstraction. I'm running around on a NIN with over 3000 dexterity and only 289 strength. The numbers under the hood that fuel the mechanical gameplay would suggest something completely absurd in the story. My character isn't exactly the Flash in these cutscenes, muchless the Flash, but unable to open a jar of pickles.
Because of how close the fight between Thancred and Ran'jit was, and that Ran'jit was able to defeat the WOL in their first encounter, I don't think a difference in aether is a meaningful measurement unless you are doing very specific things*. With Thancred vs. Ran'jit, you have an incredibly skilled "warrior" from the Source who cannot call on aether, vs. a master of martial techniques from the First who can. The difference in this one case is not at all clear. Thancred wins but he very nearly dies.
*Like trying to absorb a Lightwarden or permakill an Ascian. -
11-24-2021, 11:56 PMJandor
Just on the strength of the WoL side of things: I personally tend to think of the WoL as a sort of 'Captain Eorzea'. Well liked, great team leader, and the peak of mortal performance, but not technically superhuman.