I know that it must've been answered years ago, but I'm new to the FFamily, and my attempts to search forums did not work well.
Have in mind, that I've just finished the Shadowbringers MSQ, but I did NOT play the patches just yet. If it all gets explained somewhere soon, just let me know, I'd rather wait a little longer then.
From what I've seen so far, Urianger practically claims himself responsible for Minfilia becoming an Emissary of Light. He comments on that during our earlier encounter with Ardbert&Co in the Source, and in ShB he attempts to comfort soon-to-be-Ryne by saying that he's the one to blame.
As much as I realize the crucial importance of his role in this chain of events, there's one thing that bothers me, however. Minfilia was ONLY able to get into the lifestream because of Y'shtola's last-minute attempt to save Thancred and herself from collapse with an old forbidden spell. I mean this very moment in the sewers, it relies on LOTS of (seemingly) random, unpredictable, and not related variables.
1. The entire Monetarists' plot had to work.
2. Scions had to be successfully framed for poisoning Nanamo.
3. Thancred had to be in a right place to lead the party down there.
4. Y'shtola had to remain with him up to that very moment AND come up with an idea of spell among the other options.
5. WoL had been explicitly told to get Minfillia out to safety by all means necessary, and while I understand that technically "our" WoL had no saying on that decision gameplay-wise, I can imagine some WoLs trying to literally drag her out.
6. some other random factors I can't think of at the moment...
Surely, he can not be responsible for ALL of that? If for ANY at all? And if not, then how is he even "responsible" then?
From what I can see, things (mostly) happen because of Hydaelyn's divine intervention, when She whispers Her will to Minfilia (but not WoL), guiding her directly into spell AOE....Which brings up another peculiar detail - Freedom of Choice (and lack of thereof). Was it a choice of her own making, or had she been primal-tempered? Aren't we all? Either way, Urianger was hardly a part of it. And my question still stands. What EXACTLY was this grand stratagem (he believes to be) of his doing?
(Spoilers up to ShB) So, what exactly DID our Urianger DO?
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11-20-2021, 09:36 PMNRieh(Spoilers up to ShB) So, what exactly DID our Urianger DO?
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11-20-2021, 10:22 PMIscah
The stuff he regularly guilt-trips over isn't Minfilia ending up bound to Hydalyn to begin with, but his actions in manipulating Elidibus, the Warriors of Darkness and the Scions to bring their and our crystals together to restore some of Hydaelyn's power* and send Minfilia to the First - setting her up for that mission without giving her a say in it, even if she was probably willing to do it anyway.
From memory I think most of it gets covered in the cutscene where we talk to Minfilia in the aetherial sea, and possibly some in the battle beforehand.
He definitely seems to overstate what a terrible thing it was for him to do. Like apologising profusely for the current lesss-than-perfect state of the First when there wouldn't even be a First right now if he hadn't set up Minfilia to intervene.
* Hydaelyn seemed on the verge of failing altogether after the Antitower, so weakened that Minfilia was unable to hold her physical form after speaking to us. The rush of energy from the crystals allowed Minfilia to separate from Hydaelyn again and become an emissary rather than simply the Word of the Mother. -
11-20-2021, 10:49 PMFrizze
Yeah, this is the Warriors of Darkness storyline. It gets hinted at in the set of cutscenes at the end of 2.55 where you see Urianger meeting secretly with Elidibus, then it starts in earnest at the very end of 3.0(after you fight thordan its one of the last cutscenes after the credit roll) with Elidibus introducing the character we eventually learn to be Ardbert. Him and his friends appear a couple times in 3.1-3.3, and their storyline takes center stage in 3.4. This was the patch where most of their story was explained, and it culminated in the solo duty where you fought the Warriors of Darkness and ends in the cutscene that sees Minfilia on her way to the first.
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11-21-2021, 02:02 AMNRiehThe thing is, the entire plan of saving the 1st literally hinges on the very fact of Minfilia's sacrifice at the end of ARR, and it comes (as I mentioned in OP) from lots of random factors. Apparently, no Minfilia caught in AOE = no Emissary, no averted calamity, etc. I'm trying to figure out the cause-effect, and whether it was as random as it seems. We can always assume it's just the storytelling convenience, but I'd rather believe that some inner logic and explanation still exists here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Could it be that Urianger was, in fact, somehow aware of Minfilia's adventure long before WoL's Antitower tour? Long enough to figure out her place in this plan of his, maybe? Like, "Hey, look. We've got the right person for that Emissary job, and we could boost our Mother Crystal with powers? And we could annoy some Ascians, while we're at it? Let's make it happen! F*, Elibidius. Sorry, Ardbert."
True. And if I had to make an assumption, I'd say that it was Hydaelyn herself, who had guided Urianger and Minfilia both. First, she seized an opportunity to reach out and summon Minfilia's resources to her side. So that she could later reach out to Urianger ( either directly or via her Word of Mother), while WoL was busy with knights&dragons.Quote:
* Hydaelyn seemed on the verge of failing altogether after the Antitower, so weakened that Minfilia was unable to hold her physical form after speaking to us. The rush of energy from the crystals allowed Minfilia to separate from Hydaelyn again and become an emissary rather than simply the Word of the Mother.
I've looked up the lore description of that WoD quest. the Archon confesses to having orchestrated events to grant Minfilia her freedom, that she might then use her newfound powers to prevent the First from being lost to the void. Though this revelation prompts outrage in your allies, she reassures them that she is happy to have been given such an opportunity. Not much of the specifics, I guess, but better than nothing.. -
11-21-2021, 03:16 AMIscahYou're looking too far back. Why do you think Urianger had anything to do with Minfilia ending up in the aetherial sea? He didn't, and he had no idea what happened to her until we started tracing the lost Scions' aetherial trails in Heavensward. It's only once we work out what happened to Minfilia that he can start thinking about what to do about it – and I don't think we had that worked out until 3.2 just before we went to the Antitower and came back to relay what we saw there to the Scions. That's the point where Urianger would know that Hydaelyn is fading and also understand the exact nature of Minfilia's current state, at which point he starts manipulating events with that specific plan in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NRieh
He was in contact with Elidibus already, of course, but it may have just been a more general "play along and see how much information I can extract" venture at that point.
I'm not following the scenario you're picturing in your second paragraph at all. -
11-21-2021, 03:17 AMHainiryun
I'm not sure it was ever implied that Minfillia becoming the Word of the Mother was part of any plan of Urianger's. he became involved after that point, when Elidibus approached him and he began to set up the double-cross.
Chances are he didn't specifically team up with Elidibus with the intention of sending Minfillia to the First, just to gain information on the enemy and potentially undermine them at a later date. When things then lined up so that he *could* set things in motion to do that he took the oportunity.
He's guilty over it because as has already been said, he acted without actually consulting Minfillia (or anyone else) on the matter, a move which essentially "killed" her from the perspective of a bunch of other characters, particularly Thancred and F'lahminn. She never did return from the first after all. Even if Thancred did eventually make it to the First and get to say more of a proper goodbye in Amh Araeng Urainger still essentially had his friend's adopted sibling sacrifice herself for the greater good. It was a betrayal of his friends even if it was well intentioned. He sent her to die.
You can also arguably trace the sequence of events that leads to her final "death" by giving Ryne her powers back to Urianger's intervention. She'd already sacrificed herself to become the Word but that's the work of gods; Hydaelyn called to Minfillia and Minfillia answered, but orchestrating her journey to the First? That's all on Urianger. If he hadn't sent her to the First she wouldn't have had to spend a century reincarnating and dying over and over again either. For all that Minfillia is relatively serene about it and doesn't hold a grude that doesn't mean he can forgive himself. Maybe if he hadn't done what he did something else might have come up later? Maybe he threw away a chance to free her from Hydaelyn in a way that let her live on? It's not necessarily a *fair* assessment of events but guilt rarely is.
Urianger's constant deceptions are a bit of a running gag at this point but it's always been a part of his characterisation that he's not just doing it for funsies, he'll act as a double agent or conceal the truth because he genuinely believes it necessary, that doesn't mean he enjoys doing it. Minfillia's sacrifice is sort of emblematic of that. He set up events which in the grand scheme of things were absolutely for the good of basically everyone involved; he saved the First from anihilation, gave the Warriors of Darkness some form of absolution by letting them help save their world after all, powered up Hydaelyn and made a figurative obscene gesture in Elidibus' general direction. But in doing so he hurt people close to him. Urianger's actions, even if they get him dunked on by the other scions on occasion do tend to pan out for the better, but it's not without personal cost. -
11-21-2021, 03:31 AMIscahThis is the big thing with his characterisation. He does what he does because he's been put in a position where he has to see that logically this thing needs to happen and he's the one person positioned to achieve it, and the only way for it to succeed is to deceive his friends. He hates it but he can see the alternative is worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hainiryun
I also think people give him far too much blame for doing it again in Shadowbringers. It was the Exarch who pulled him aside, told him a secret that he can see is far too important to break and is basically "well you've got to be part of this scheme now or a hundred years of planning and the fate of two worlds may be doomed, especially if you tell your friends the truth at this point. Thanks for agreeing to help." -
11-21-2021, 05:08 AMRosenstrauchI think part of it is that the Exarch's scheme had significant issues with it, such as his presumption that the WoL wouldn't accept his sacrifice and his failure to take into account Emet-Selch. Then there's the part where it backfired horribly. Without Emet-Selch enabling the finale and several miraculous events—Urianger happening to know a powerful Fae who can grant us passage to the bottom of the sea, Ardbert rejoining with the WoL, and the Lightwardens' Light being cancelled out when it struck Emet-Selch—there'd have been at best no saving the WoL, and at worst no saving the First. Neither Urianger nor the Exarch should be given credit for most of these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
This also tends to get forgotten, but according to Ryne she was going to have to deal with the Lightwardens if the WoL's summoning failed. With that in mind, it's hard to believe that endangering the WoL's life by having them shoulder the entirety of the burden was even the best course of action.
But I think the real reason Urianger ends up getting blamed for all this is because he was the one left holding the bag, so to speak. That and he actually got down on his knees and apologized for it, whereas the Exarch never really had the chance to. For some people, the admission of guilt is a bigger sin than actually doing something wrong, as absurd as it sounds. -
11-21-2021, 06:41 AMMrThinkerBut the Exarch did apologise, no? It's like the first thing he says after beating the Dying Gasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch
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11-21-2021, 06:49 AMRosenstrauchHe tries. Our dialogue choices are to cut him off by implicitly forgiving him, cut him off by implicitly forgiving him (also making him cry), or to tell him we can deal with it later (we never do).Quote:
Originally Posted by MrThinker
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11-21-2021, 06:59 AMMrThinker
I think at this point, it is one of those headcanon things of what happened afterwards. We never see ourselves talk to the others about Ardbert, but by the conversations in 5.2, we know that those talks definitely happened. Who's to say that the Exarch didn't get on his knees and apologise around the same time?