From 15 years WoW to FF

So all I can say is, I’m glad that I sticked with it, there definitely were stretches where I was about to throw the towel, most prominently during the hours of ARR “travel to the sands hideout for the 500th time” during which I made it a fun game to anticipate when and in what order my character and the npcs will nod their heads during the endless cutscenes of circle-talking.

Which brings me to - I recently brought one of my real-life colleagues into the game, but even tho he’s praising the cutesy characters, looks of gear (doh! coming from WoW with paint-on robes) and Zone atmosphere, he’s constantly complaining about sluggish gameplay, lack of skills and boring quests, and all I can do is keep saying stick with it, it will get better.

I feel like FF14 loses a lot of potential players to the first 30 or so levels, alternating two skills on a 2.50 GCD, players that would happily play the game at higher levels and higher content tiers if they knew what the high-level game feels like.

I think developers should consider putting in some “front-loaded” action, to give completely new players a taste of what it looks like later, like a lot of oldschool JRPGs had this going, starting the game in a climax, through a flashback/future vision sort of thing, which then dropped to zero, slowly building up again as the actual game goes.

Cheers!

While it does lose a lot of potential players during the first 50 levels who prefer fast gameplay with lots of buttons, it would also lose a lot of potential players if there were too many buttons to press too frequently.

I could not begin to tell you how many videos and streams I have seen of new players struggling to do their 2-button rotation with 2.5 seconds between them. Something as simple as the orange circles distracts them enough to interrupt it and press the first button twice. They ignore their abilities that increase damage or press them as if they are a GCD. Sometimes they don't refresh dots as they expire and this is just the first 30 levels. The slow gameplay helps a lot of players ease into what becomes a lot more mechanically busy, and rotations that become a lot more complicated than the 2 buttons you start with.

Quite interesting how many players mention their play time as a reason to make another topic on forum/reddit to post their feedback.

Also interesting how thread name has nothing to do with actual post.

1-40 at least needs a total overhaul. It's the hardest rite of passage known to man and only few survive it

This comes up pretty regularly, and I have my standard copy/paste answer to this. Hopefully the Devs will hear us out.

...copy paste answer:

1) By the 4th dungeon, aka level 20: the character should have their core "base" rotation, in full. This is the 1-2-3 main rotation for most jobs; the ice/fire balance for BLM; the 4 single target dance moves for DNC, etc.
2) Also, they should have access to at least 1 AoE.
3) By level 50, they should have every button they're going to get, including the special skill gauges/lilies/etc.
4) Post 50, the only new abilities should be enhanced versions of what we already have, or things that are kinda "QoL" like longer time for certain gauges (DRG/BLM); more uses of weave-abilities or "Bigger" gauges (like SAM could increase from 100 max to 200) or faster charging of this gauge to allow more use.

In short, playing a job on 80 or 50 should be the "same" but with less to weave in, or more time between ability uses. Blackmage is the absolute worst regarding how its rotation is affected by level. (imho)

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Originally Posted by kaynide

This comes up pretty regularly, and I have my standard copy/paste answer to this. Hopefully the Devs will hear us out.

...copy paste answer:

1) By the 4th dungeon, aka level 20: the character should have their core "base" rotation, in full. This is the 1-2-3 main rotation for most jobs; the ice/fire balance for BLM; the 4 single target dance moves for DNC, etc.
2) Also, they should have access to at least 1 AoE.
3) By level 50, they should have every button they're going to get, including the special skill gauges/lilies/etc.
4) Post 50, the only new abilities should be enhanced versions of what we already have, or things that are kinda "QoL" like longer time for certain gauges (DRG/BLM); more uses of weave-abilities or "Bigger" gauges (like SAM could increase from 100 max to 200) or faster charging of this gauge to allow more use.

In short, playing a job on 80 or 50 should be the "same" but with less to weave in, or more time between ability uses. Blackmage is the absolute worst regarding how its rotation is affected by level. (imho)

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I actually love this idea. After hitting Lvl 80, it's kind of annoying when you queue for duty roulette and end up playing with a dumbed down rotation most of the time. Although that would still exist for pre lvl 50 content, at least it wouldn't be as much of a difference, and lvl 50 - 80 would give you your full kit making the gameplay much more engaging.

Adding to what you said, after level 50 you could just gain new traits instead of abilities to modify your already existing abilities.

A lot of the spells/skills you are used to using now weren't available in ARR but added in later expansions. So you are wanting like 3 expansions worth of abilities added to ARR.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

A lot of the spells/skills you are used to using now weren't available in ARR but added in later expansions. So you are wanting like 3 expansions worth of abilities added to ARR.

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There were a lot more which were removed from the game. ARR and HW didn't have only few abilities like currently, quite the contrary

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

I feel like FF14 loses a lot of potential players to the first 30 or so levels, alternating two skills on a 2.50 GCD, players that would happily play the game at higher levels and higher content tiers if they knew what the high-level game feels like.

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That's because the potential players that you're talking about are MMO vets. If you're going from the post-WotLK WoW experience where they give you 90% of your rotation by level 10 and then have nothing more to learn or look forward to for another 50 levels, then the FFXIV experience seems jarring. For new players who are just learning how to play an MMO, however, FFXIV is way better. Changing your game to make it compelling for long-time gamers at the expense of new players is a good way to tank your game. There's a reason that FFXIV continues on an upward trajectory.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

1-40 at least needs a total overhaul. It's the hardest rite of passage known to man and only few survive it

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I got hooked playing this game with the early ARR experience, and bought the game, but yeah, it does filter out a lot of would be players. I've advocated for further 'improvements' to the new player experience over the years, but get constantly told the game isn't for me, even though it is just something I am arguing on principle mostly.

After level 50, every 10 levels is a different expansion's rotation and maybe the core rotation feels completely different in another expansion. A good example is paladin that goes from being completely melee in ARR and Heavensward to having a ranged magic phase in Stormblood and on. How do you create a feeling of rotation progression and something that feels new and fresh every expansion, if you just give it all right away in ARR?

To some extent I agree about the combat stuff but I also think it has a lot to do with being so used to WoW.
If you come in with no past experience and biases I actually wonder if it'd really feel so '' bad '' at first?

WoW isn't that exciting either at low levels and it doesn't branch out the way it does in FFXIV the rotations don't change as drastically and are more repetitive.
But low level it feels faster and more responsive.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

A lot of the spells/skills you are used to using now weren't available in ARR but added in later expansions. So you are wanting like 3 expansions worth of abilities added to ARR.

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That is exactly what I’m asking for.

A lot of skills and abilities were dropped from ARR and HW, making the jobs kind of bland. It used to be at the very least you could add cross class skills. I forget exactly, but there were many options like being able to toss in a Stoneskin as any job to assist the healer. Or aero for a bonus DoT. There was a lot of variety in the 1-30 spectrum to keep it interesting…now not so much.

Yeah the first 30 levels are the worst, I thought the next 20 weren’t so bad because abilities started popping through so I felt like I was getting somewhere. It was hard though having 2 buttons to press for the longest time, if it wasn’t for the encouragement of the person who got me here I probably wouldn’t have been able to stick with it. I don’t think they need to give you all the buttons right away, but a few more especially at those early levels would be nice.

Maybe i'm a minority here but i for one didn't mind the first 50 levels at all. Leveling up went so fast i didn't have the time to be that bored.
Post ARR quests though ...........................................

send help pls

(i did mine before they reworked them last year, so not sure how bad it is now, but before the rework it was reeaaaaaaaaaaaaaally bad)

I disagree with the OP. Having also recently come over from WoW, the game is al ready overwhelming enough early on. Every time you turn around you are getting something new thrown at you as it is.

Pretty sure this is why its free up to HS now
everyone knows HS is where it gets gud

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Originally Posted by Jin-

1-40 at least needs a total overhaul. It's the hardest rite of passage known to man and only few survive it

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It takes a few hours to complete including cutscenes. If you want a skip buy it.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Pretty sure this is why its free up to HS now
everyone knows HS is where it gets gud

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The ARR bashing is way overblown. ARR was a fantastic experience in 2013. It doesn't hold up to the current standard but it is still absolutely fine especially after the quest trim and addition of flying.

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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This is the true concern. Mythic+, harder small group content, and competitive non-sense that breeds toxicity, that is the very thing I thought we WoW refugees wanted to get away from. If someone wants that, they should play WoW and maybe try not to ruin the best MMORPG ever made.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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I very much share this concern and bet that most long-time XIV players, and even a number of fairly recent WoW Refugees, share this sentiment. I've stuck with XIV for all the reasons it's *not* WoW and I do not want this game I enjoy so much to lose those things in favor of catering to a group of players who only recently, in the past year or so, started playing. It's a matter of a group of people who are playing the game, not because of what it is, but because other games got so bad that they sought out "the next best thing/substitute" and will likely not stick around en masse when the New Hotness comes out asking for things that will likely change the tone of the game and community significantly for the long haul.

I respect that this group are paying customers too, but I would argue their level of investment in the game is not nearly that of long-term players. Those of us who have been with the game for many years and want to stick with this game for years to come are in this position for what the game is and what the game is not. Adding things that the game currently isn't (Mythic+ and similar things) for the sake of short-term gains risks disenfranchising more long-term players, than new players it will retain. I pray SE sticks to its philosophy, makes sure the game remains the beautiful creation it has been since I started playing 7 years ago, and doesn't add things that caused me (many of us) to stop playing other games in the past.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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FF14 was inspired by WoW, the devs have played it and they know perfectly well which parts of WoW they want to use and which parts they want to avoid.

Also many WoW players left the game because it's bad. They aren't going to demand FF14 adapts any of the things that they literally quit a game over. They'll be the ones who will be quite happy with what they've got, it's the FF14 veterans who have exhausted the content and are bored or burnt out who tend to demand big changes.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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I doubt this tbh, the devs seem to have a lot of confidence in themselves.
Both for good and for bad, I've played MNK since ARR and I don't exactly feel listened to.
But nothing will ever be perfect.

But if the devs are competent which they are in this case then I prefer selective listening over just giving into everything the '' community '' wants.
Which tends to be the very loud minority on Reddit or forums which are often not an accurate representation of the average player ( on Reddit they often don't even play the game, anyone can post on Reddit ).

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I doubt this tbh, the devs seem to have a lot of confidence in themselves.
Both for good and for bad, I've played MNK since ARR and I don't exactly feel listened to.
But nothing will ever be perfect.

But if the devs are competent which they are in this case then I prefer selective listening over just giving into everything the '' community '' wants.
Which tends to be the very loud minority on Reddit or forums which are often not an accurate representation of the average player ( on Reddit they often don't even play the game, anyone can post on Reddit ).

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Don't forgot the ol' bird app.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Don't forgot the ol' bird app.

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Ah yes, the app where like 10% of the users make up for 80+% of the activity and yet for some reason so much of media have decided that it's indicative of society at large.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I very much share this concern and bet that most long-time XIV players, and even a number of fairly recent WoW Refugees, share this sentiment. I've stuck with XIV for all the reasons it's *not* WoW and I do not want this game I enjoy so much to lose those things in favor of catering to a group of players who only recently, in the past year or so, started playing. It's a matter of a group of people who are playing the game, not because of what it is, but because other games got so bad that they sought out "the next best thing/substitute" and will likely not stick around en masse when the New Hotness comes out asking for things that will likely change the tone of the game and community significantly for the long haul.

I respect that this group are paying customers too, but I would argue their level of investment in the game is not nearly that of long-term players. Those of us who have been with the game for many years and want to stick with this game for years to come are in this position for what the game is and what the game is not. Adding things that the game currently isn't (Mythic+ and similar things) for the sake of short-term gains risks disenfranchising more long-term players, than new players it will retain. I pray SE sticks to its philosophy, makes sure the game remains the beautiful creation it has been since I started playing 7 years ago, and doesn't add things that caused me (many of us) to stop playing other games in the past.

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This has always been my issue as well. Though honestly it's much less prevalent now that even the WoW fans who have chosen to play 14 aren't exactly trumpeting how great WoW is. If you're going to play 14, and I'm happy that so many people have at least tried it, it should be because of what 14 offers. It shouldn't be because "it's not WoW" and if your first comments about 14 are about what it should (or NEEDS) to take from WoW than, well, you're playing the wrong game and maybe you really should just go back to WoW. 14 is far from perfect but the vast majority of the 14 player base are playing it because it's 14 and don't want it to be WoW, regardless of the often fairly clear inspiration that WoW has served as in some regards.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

My only worry about the influx of wow players is that they'll beg the final fantasy xiv team for changes that can potentially F up the game

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In this case FF14 should be already f****d up because it is basically a copy of an earlier version of WoW. :)

Cheers

Yoshi P is pretty aware of how bad of a state WoW is in and how much they've messed up.
It kinda begs the question why they'd decide to copy it now.

Especially when what they've been doing has been so successful it just doesn't make any logical sense.
Remember that he literally questioned whether the devs even play the game, so why would he look to that game to take inspiration from?

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Originally Posted by Jin-

1-40 at least needs a total overhaul. It's the hardest rite of passage known to man and only few survive it

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Actually, I find it engaging. It feels less cyclical than what it is today.

sort of the nature of things. If you go from fully developed character in one game to just starting out character in another your going to feel like it's lacking because it is
ARR story can be rough though, be glad your playing it after they pruned a bunch out

Back in the day before they decided on an expansion cycle ARR was just getting more and more story nonstop, which is not a bad thing at all when it's a couple hours worth every couple months of course. In fact at the time watching mor dhona develop with your character was kind of cool. Not sure if new players even get to see the state it started in anymore