Unpopular Opinion: Make all Jobs DPS with a Defender OR Healer stance...

(Another thing to filed under: Never Going To Happen)

... more or less just what the title says; make every job a DPS that has a "stance" that is either Tank or Heal that when triggered will lower their damage to Tank/Heal level and change their secondary rotation to either a set of defense buffs or heals accordingly.

Healer OR Defender, _NOT_ Healer AND Defender.

Optionally: I could imagine having a mechanic where while playing solo your stance is more generic, like 80/20 in favor of DPS, but in a party you would have the enhancement "Teamwork" and it would be a more drastic shift as you focus more at working as a team. Also, your role Icon would change while in a party to reflect your "stance"... that way it is easier to visually coordinate.

I don't know... just a wild idea. I'll go climb on my pile of firewood now and wait to be flamed.

Already exists, it's called Blue Mage.

No thanks - jobs are different for a reason. It’s not like you can’t job switch

Why?

We can already swap between tank, healer and dps.

That basically involves creating new jobs for every job. So just... Add new jobs instead.

What people seem to not realize is that it's just as much, if not more work to create and balance specs than it is to just... Make a new job...

I don't really see a point of this since every combat job in the game is already a DPS with different icons? Healers being green DPS with the sub goal of keeping everyone alive, blue DPS tanks with the sub goal of holding aggro and mitigating damage and normal DPS?

Impossible to balance
its been tried in other mmos
all hail the trinity

i be all for tihs. give much more fun to the game

I rate this troll thread a 5/7

Yeah no. That'll make everything more complicated than it needs to be, WoW has that problem with specs for every single job and that's game's balance is absolutely atrocious. It's tough enough balancing the game as it is for the classes that we have, adding specs on top of it would be a nightmare. Besides, the trinity of MMOs have not failed yet. If it isn't broken; there's no need to fix it.

youre right. this is an unpopular opinion.

But...all jobs are already DPS jobs

They tried this before in ARR and the playerbase hated it with an UTTER passion. To enforce it so it would even matter you would need to lock people in at the beginning of an instance and would also have to effectively design the raid encounters with an extreme amount more damage as healers would only be dedicated to healing or dps?!?!?

Your idea never made sense then and it still does not.

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Originally Posted by Chekopacheko

But...all jobs are already DPS jobs

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And here I was going to say that as nasally as possible.

I dunno, a healer ninja sounds awesome. They steal your injuries and then throw it back at the enemy!

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I don't really see a point of this since every combat job in the game is already a DPS with different icons? Healers being green DPS with the sub goal of keeping everyone alive, blue DPS tanks with the sub goal of holding aggro and mitigating damage and normal DPS?

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The main problem with this is that the developers don't give healers offensive actions proportionate to how much of their time (50% is a conspicuous underestimate for content intended to be difficult) is spent on offense. Perhaps they could be convinced to do otherwise if they just dumped the idea that we need healers. Healers are effectively built for a game that isn't there.

what they should do, is remove all dps jobs, would require some retooling I imagine.

but if we are making unreasonable discussions about removing entire parts of the game the norm, why not? dps spend a lot of time on the floor, be a lot less stressful on healers having to raise them, and tanks wouldnt have to step over the bodies.

honestly though, there are games out there where every class is teh same, just different looks, with no triad.. suggest you try one of those if thats what you are looking for. it is not needed here

That sounds dreadful. We can't get tanks to pick who's going to MT in Alliance Roulette, but somehow we're going to coordinate on the fly in PUG groups who's going to heal, tank, and dps?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That sound dreadful. We can't get tanks to pick who's going to MT in Alliance Roulette, but somehow we're going to coordinate on the fly in PUG groups who's going to heal, tank, and dps?

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yep, just take a look at BLU groups to see how poorly that works. Nobody wants to tank or heal on BLU.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

yep, just take a look at BLU groups to see how poorly that works. Nobody wants to tank or heal on BLU.

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As a tabletop gaming person, it brings to mind for me how no one ever wants to play the cleric.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

As a tabletop gaming person, it brings to mind for me how no one ever wants to play the cleric.

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Unless it was D&D 3.5. Then clerics were horrifyingly broken. Heavy armor and weapons, insane self-buffs, spontaneous healing whenever you want it, and that's without going into all of the absurd things that came in later splatbooks.

Of course, then nobody wanted me to play the cleric......

I knew no one would like OPs suggestion, but what I didnt expect, is how most ppl are talking about completely different subjects, and still thinking they are talking about OPs subject...

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I knew no one would like OPs suggestion, but what I didnt expect, is how most ppl are talking about completely different subjects, and still thinking they are talking about OPs subject...

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the OP's subject is make all jobs exactly the same just with different stances people can choose.

what exactly would there to be like? so why not talk about completely different things, which are all just as viable given the badness?

If you want to Tank or Heal as a DPS, Bozja has you covered.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I knew no one would like OPs suggestion, but what I didnt expect, is how most ppl are talking about completely different subjects, and still thinking they are talking about OPs subject...

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Have you never interneted before?

Go do Save The Queen content and see for yourself how it'll be viewed by the devs who's utterly obsessed with balancing & saturated with anti-meta sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I knew no one would like OPs suggestion, but what I didnt expect, is how most ppl are talking about completely different subjects, and still thinking they are talking about OPs subject...

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Some people like to talk, but don't know they can start a conversation... maybe? Conversations (d)evolve, it's natural. :)

First, I don't like this idea either, but I have heard enough Tanks and Healers complain about their damage output (that they should be allowed to do more), and enough people complain about DPS jobs in general that this incredibly rough idea occurred to me out of all those complaints. I never said anything about making the jobs the same. That's a leap, but cool, I didn't care enough to spell that out... and it is the internet, so... meh.

The biggest problem with this idea is that it is basically making it a new game in the same setting. And while I would play that game because I like the setting, it still would require reconfiguring everything, which is just more trouble than it's worth. I like FFXIV (must be why I play it), I like that there will be changes to try to balance things, I like that it feels to individual players that their job is more powerful than the other jobs because they feel at home with its one mechanic that sets it apart. I like healing, I like tanking, I like dps... I like that this game is casual, I have a job that always demands overtime from me.

Anyway, interesting comments everyone. This comment humored me the most:

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

I rate this troll thread a 5/7

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. Nice reference.

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Originally Posted by Kohl

Some people like to talk, but don't know they can start a conversation... maybe? Conversations (d)evolve, it's natural. :)

But I have heard enough Tanks and Healers complain about their damage output(...)

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I mean, the damage ain't even that bad, I think it's just that the rotations are overall more boring than DPS rotations. "Simple rotations + low damage" is a hell of a lot worse than "Dynamic rotation + low damage".
I mean, I understand why they do it like that, after all, Healers and Tanks are more about paying attention to the fight to keep everyone alive rather than doing some complex rotations to maximize damage done, but still.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

I mean, the damage ain't even that bad, I think it's just that the rotations are overall more boring than DPS rotations. "Simple rotations + low damage" is a hell of a lot worse than "Dynamic rotation + low damage".
I mean, I understand why they do it like that, after all, Healers and Tanks are more about paying attention to the fight to keep everyone alive rather than doing some complex rotations to maximize damage done, but still.

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No lies detected, sir. I can't disagree with you. I think this is why I am liking GNB (I feel like I build up to having something of a burst of butt-kicking), but they still do not have a complex rotation of any kind.

+1 to this idea
Always felt Dancer should have some form of regen buff to the party from their Step dances.

Then there is the method of Healing i loved most in any game, in Neverwinter the clerics add a healing pool to an enemy and any player attacking drains it if they are missing HP.
Was perfect for the whole thing players have here of "Dont be a healer bot, do DPS too."

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

I mean, the damage ain't even that bad, I think it's just that the rotations are overall more boring than DPS rotations. "Simple rotations + low damage" is a hell of a lot worse than "Dynamic rotation + low damage".
I mean, I understand why they do it like that, after all, Healers and Tanks are more about paying attention to the fight to keep everyone alive rather than doing some complex rotations to maximize damage done, but still.

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Originally Posted by Kohl

No lies detected, sir. I can't disagree with you. I think this is why I am liking GNB (I feel like I build up to having something of a burst of butt-kicking), but they still do not have a complex rotation of any kind.

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I concur with both of these points; I play tank, heal, and dps regularly and I feel the damage for the jobs I play is solid for each. As for "boring", I also feel they're currently fine (at least with the jobs I play, them being GNB, AST, and BLM), because each Job has a different focus and honestly, I don't play GNB or AST to have a complex dps rotation. I'm paying attention to a lot of other things instead, so I rather like that it's simpler for them. As for BLM, it more than makes up for having an interesting rotation, lol

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I knew no one would like OPs suggestion, but what I didnt expect, is how most ppl are talking about completely different subjects, and still thinking they are talking about OPs subject...

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Adding stances wouldn't do anything if the jobs have no skills pertaining to the role.


A SAM for instance, would need entirely new skills to fill a healer or tank role that a stance wouldn't provide.

Not a bad idea, but not really necessary in this game because you can already be everything on one character. With a button click you can heal or tank or DPS.

I prefer holy trinity for vanilla contents, no thanks.



For side-contents like Bozja, however, I would love an extra layer of build. Think of essence and lost actions in Bozja contents, but instead of using disposable items (I really hate "disposable" stuffs), SE develops them into some kind of "Talent trees", so you can play your class while being tougher and hold threat better as tank sub-role (passive threat multiplier, higher HP, defense stat, and defensive buff like Manawall), offer heal/support in heal sub-role (higher heal potency and can offer buffs like Protect/Shell/Bravery...) or hit harder in DPS sub-role (higher critical/direct hit chance/damage, DPS buff like Font of Power...). And you're not fixed to a sub-role, as you can go hybrid too.

I have actually had the same idea, OP.

It came to me mostly from how simple the DPS "rotation" is for healer.

I've found myself wishing that I could do something like, play Black Mage but with White Mage subclass, I think I could handle doing the BLM rotation while also having access to Lilies, Regen, Tetra, etc, to fill the healer role. (I mean you only need to cast a heal like every 15-20 seconds anyway most of the time)

Or wishing, while I was on Dancer, that I could weave Celestial Intersection, Opposition, etc between each attack.

Of course, that would be a lot, hence why I came to the same idea you said in the OP, switching out some skills so that you're not super overloaded.

And then I thought, the same could work for melees and tanks. Take Samurai, remove the kenki spenders and exchange it for rampart, sentinel, sheltron instead, etc. And vice versa, Warrior without any of the defensive ogCDs, but a few more damage ogCDs and weaponskills instead...

Fun to think about.

while i can definitely understand the appeal of being able to customize every part of your character, including their skillset, adding this would just lead to a lot of people playing confusing hybrid classes that would be difficult for both the people playing the game and the devs working on it to deal with.

for the devs it would be difficult because all of a sudden things would be a lot harder to categorize. is this warrior/dragoon a dps or a tank? which slot should they be put in in a dungeon? what kind of armor and weapon should they be allowed to use? all things they'd suddenly have to start thinking about.

as for the players, when you see a certain class you generally have an idea of what they can do and how they can affect the rest of the group. dancers have dance partner. astrologians have their cards. dragoons have their tether that everybody is afraid of. but allowing people to just throw whatever skills they want on their character removes this understanding and you get things like, say, a samurai dying because all of a sudden they hit superbolide and the healer didn't react in time because, well, normally the samurai wouldn't HAVE superbolide. knowing that class x has skill y is important to a better overall experience, because it means you have a general idea of what to expect from everybody as soon as you load in and see the party composition. obviously, people are people and these assumptions may not always hold true, but it's nice, at least, to be prepared to respond to your party members' actions when they DO happen.