The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

As per the title.

Ever since I first heard about the splitting of the world into the source of its fourteen shards, these questions have been kicking around in my mind non-stop. Was this event intentional? was it an accident? Or an unavoidable consequence of something? What are the SPECIFICS of this event, aetherologically speaking?

Was it really only Hydaelyn that was responsible for the sundering? or did Zodiark also play a part in it? What about the other parties involved, the convocation and Venat's secret sect? Are they also responsible in some more direct way?

So many questions bubbling in my mind, I really would like to hear your take in all this :D
So what you guys think?

From what Emet-Selch says, it was an intentional part of Hydaelyn's construction and powerset; she divides, that is the point.

HOWEVER! We need to remember that Emet-Selch is a big fat liar about many things, and is actually most frequently incorrect about Hydaelyn. Which is fair enough--he literally was not there for any part of Hydaelyn's formulation, so he doesn't know anything about the intentions, only the results--but it means that we can't really trust him one bit on this.

Personally, I've been reading it that it was sort of an inevitable consequence of the clash. Picture the wrestling moves with so much impact that they break a table; Hydaelyn probably did that... and maybe did it a few times.

The why is the big one for me.

It's been pretty consistent so far that Hydaelyn's defeating blow to Zodiark shattered the fabric of reality with him. (At least locally, around the planet itself.) Hydaelyn, Minfilia, Ardbert, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch are all on the same page. Granted we do have another big SECRET OF THE STAR left...

My best guess so far for the how is rooted in a line by Emet-Selch:

Quote:

---

As a counterbalance to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was created with the power to enervate Her foe. This singular ability strikes not at such banal things as flesh, but everything that defines the target, diluting its existence.

---

If Zodiark were currently the Will of the Planet, perhaps it's always been as easy as that shattering him shatters the planet. It was one of my biggest questions this whole time: if we're to save the world as we know it, and Hydaelyn is currently the Will of the Planet, what can happen to her without undermining our desired outcome?

I've come up with a few ways out of that, including Venat's self-sacrifice in the event of Zodiark's defeat (counter-weight without a weight to counter becomes the weight itself). But we'll see where it goes. Some expect a fusion dance that we have to beat. (I'd rather see a fusion dance that defeats The Sound, thus fulfilling the mission of Amaurot and redeeming the legacy of the Ancients before entrusting the world to sundered man. The Warrior of Light, as Azem before them, blazing the impossible third path that brings everyone together.)

Some even expect a "New Mothercrystal" from a fusion is how we get out of this. (Which is clever in its simplicity; I can't even figure out what's preventing me from embracing it just yet.) And then some from connect that back to Elidibus's ambiguous hint (in some languages) that Hydaelyn would re-gain her own original form along with everything else...

But WHY... now there's a question. A lot hinges on it, including whether people who rooted for Hydaelyn (myself included) feel alienated by that framing. In Japanese, one of Venat's compatriots phrases the line about "if we don't do this, we're as doomed as we were before Zodiark" by saying, "if we remain as we are" and that really made my brain itch.

It could just mean, "if nothing changes," but what if it's literal?

What if there was no way to stop the Final Days under conditions of creation magicks being possible? What if it was sundering or oblivion?

EDIT: Whoever liked this before I even removed the EDIT INCOMING, I really appreciate your faith in me but are you sure?

At this point, I'm very much expecting a third party entity to ultimately be to blame for the entire predicament. Potentially the very same entity that caused the Sound. The writers have, thankfully, been pretty clear at establishing the nuance of the situation. Neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn are necessarily 'good' or 'evil'. It's all very much a matter of perspective. So, too, does that apply to the Ancients and the Ascians, the Sundered and the Unsundered. They all have their own goals, dreams, desires and a will to live.

I also suspect that the Warrior of Light will go the way of Azem and seek to find a 'third way' when it comes to solving the plight that is the Sound. Especially if the Final Days are indeed returning for a second time in the same form as before. Or, alternatively, perhaps the story will involve Hydaelyn and Zodiark being brought together in a state of balance - given that the Sundering has been described as an 'unstable state' by the writers themselves in the past.

Whether Venat is an antagonist or not, I suppose, depends entirely on a few key factors such as whether the Sundering was accidental or intentional.

My own personal hope is for the story to set aside differences, acknowledge each side as having understandable motivations and then have everyone come together to beat the Sound which may or may not be a Lavos or Jenova type entity in typical JRPG fashion.

Welp, if Theodric and I are both amenable to a similar outcome, it's time to close up shop everyone, that must be what happens.

But Mooooose, what about my Primal of Balance that supercedes and negates both Hydaelyn and Zodiark? :O

(Again, doubtful this'll happen but we were told to expect the unexpected and the scions whole "primal summon bad" view and ultimately summoning one to save the world would be pretty unexpected)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If Zodiark were currently the Will of the Planet, perhaps it's always been as easy as that shattering him shatters the planet. It was one of my biggest questions this whole time: if we're to save the world as we know it, and Hydaelyn is currently the Will of the Planet, what can happen to her without undermining our desired outcome?

I've come up with a few ways out of that, including Venat's self-sacrifice in the event of Zodiark's defeat (counter-weight without a weight to counter becomes the weight itself). But we'll see where it goes. Some expect a fusion dance that we have to beat. (I'd rather see a fusion dance that defeats The Sound, thus fulfilling the mission of Amaurot and redeeming the legacy of the Ancients before entrusting the world to sundered man. The Warrior of Light, as Azem before them, blazing the impossible third path that brings everyone together.)

Some even expect a "New Mothercrystal" from a fusion is how we get out of this. (Which is clever in its simplicity; I can't even figure out what's preventing me from embracing it just yet.) And then some from connect that back to Elidibus's ambiguous hint (in some languages) that Hydaelyn would re-gain her own original form along with everything else...

But WHY... now there's a question. A lot hinges on it, including whether people who rooted for Hydaelyn (myself included) feel alienated by that framing. In Japanese, one of Venat's compatriots phrases the line about "if we don't do this, we're as doomed as we were before Zodiark" by saying, "if we remain as we are" and that really made my brain itch.

It could just mean, "if nothing changes," but what if it's literal?

What if there was no way to stop the Final Days under conditions of creation magicks being possible? What if it was sundering or oblivion?

EDIT: Whoever liked this before I even removed the EDIT INCOMING, I really appreciate your faith in me but are you sure?

---

Hydaelyn likely will dissipate and be replaced during said dissipation by another for the new Will of the Planet. if you're wondering who, we have one G'raha Tia, who quite literally was linked to the Crystal Tower for centuries and has the knowledge in a younger body thanks to our shenanigans in Shadowbringers. He would have the ability to serve as a new Crystal allowing the world to continue on, having the knowledge and the experience needed to pull it off. As for Venat's compatriot, who gives that phrase, it's very likely they had the same ideas as Azem, or they were told by Azem that dealing with Zodiark does not deal with the root of the issue, the source of the Sound. Something that is likely going to have changed by the end of 6.0.

Maybe Zodiark himself asked Hydaelyn to sunder the star.
"Hey Hydaelyn, my followers keep wanting to sacrifice new life to bring back their friends, I suggest you sunder me and the star to put a stop to this"
"Cool, I'll do it"

If Thancred ever becomes the Word of the Father, I'm pretty sure that Hydaelyn and Zodiark can find a way to work out their differences.

The why has alrdy been answered. To contain zodiark sunders the world with each shard as a key to zodiark's prison. The ascian's goal to free zodiark requires a rejoining to unlock his prison. The thirteenth lock is permanently closed because they got carried away. As for how well i don't know specifics but ill quote moose's statement here "As a counterbalance to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was created with the power to enervate Her foe. This singular ability strikes not at such banal things as flesh, but everything that defines the target, diluting its existence. " So in essence hydalen diluted zodiark amongst the shards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MercuryD

But Mooooose, what about my Primal of Balance that supercedes and negates both Hydaelyn and Zodiark? :O

(Again, doubtful this'll happen but we were told to expect the unexpected and the scions whole "primal summon bad" view and ultimately summoning one to save the world would be pretty unexpected)

---

We've had a primal of balance before! She didn't do very well, but did have some lovely theme music!

I feel like the reason for Hydaelyn's creation was not just to stop Zodiark but to prevent the Final Days from recurring due to him having been recognized as only a temporary solution.

It's suggested the creation magicks of the Ancients had been interfering with the world's natural order somehow, but if the majority stubbornly refused to give them up despite the harm it was causing, it would be a logical solution to deprive them of their misused power through the Sundering.

The Hydaelyn sect had to intentionally design Hydaelyn the way they did in order to even stand a chance against Zodiark.

Think about it like how old school Red Mage from FFXI fights. It has an A+ in enfeebling magic, which is magic aimed at reducing every offensive aspect of an opponent. Lower their attack speed, blunt the force with which they can strike, soften their form, cause their form to deteriorate gradually, change their form to stone, put them to sleep, hold them in place, cause them seizures, and the list goes ever on.

Then think about how Emet-selch knows what her attacks do. While he focused on telling us about the direct clash between Zodiark and Hydaelyn, we also see from those cave paintings that each primal tempered subjects and the subjects also fought one another. These were fully fledged ancients, capable of creation magicks, and also each capable of offering their own forms to become lesser primals, like what we see at the end of Akademia Anyder with the researcher who transforms his life energy into Quetzacoatl.

Do you really think Hydaelyn's construction went straight from her berthing pool to fight Zodiark without opposition? It is very likely she first sundered individuals or their summons/creations, as they attacked her to stop her(as well as tempered more to her cause).

It was a civil war.

Personally I see its conclusion being retold by the Eden raid line(as well as it being foreshadowing for what is to come). Once Hydaelyn was summoned, her host lost control, and proceeded on course overzealously, resulting in the Sundering. What was supposed to be a counter weight wound up destroying the scale. There was nothing and no one to hold Hydaelyn in check. Who watches the warden?

I think the why of it is as simple as their plan having no oversight. It was ultimately an experiment with good intent gone wrong. If Zodiark and the Ascians are tragic heroes turned villains, Hydaelyn is somewhat the same. It's tragedy all around for our Greek inspired Amaurotines.

What I'm most curious about is the afterwards, on the side of Hydaelyn's Sect. What was their plan, once Zodiark was bound, however that ultimately turned out? I suspect they envisioned it going quite a bit differently, but they must have provided Venat's lieutenants with some sort of measure to control Hydaelyn, no? Did any of them flee into the rift to escape the rampant Hydaelyn? Did they seize any sort of power after the war was over, and the Ascian's resistance and reunification efforts began? I think we can at least say that they brought her back to her senses, if nothing else. She seems quite lucid when she outright lies to us through the Word of the Mother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Personally I see its conclusion being retold by the Eden raid line(as well as it being foreshadowing for what is to come). Once Hydaelyn was summoned, her host lost control, and proceeded on course overzealously, resulting in the Sundering. What was supposed to be a counter weight wound up destroying the scale. There was nothing and no one to hold Hydaelyn in check. Who watches the warden?

I think the why of it is as simple as their plan having no oversight. It was ultimately an experiment with good intent gone wrong. If Zodiark and the Ascians are tragic heroes turned villains, Hydaelyn is somewhat the same. It's tragedy all around for our Greek inspired Amaurotines.

---

Okay, so what changed between then and now? Because in the present day, if anything Hydaelyn's problem has been underkill. She doesn't put forward enough to reliably kill the Ascians, which caused Lahabrea to live and caused Ardbert's attempt on Mitron's life to backfire. (Ysayle also failed when she tried to get her help, but it's hard to tell who's responsible for that one.)

How did a figure who apparently went so wild in the ring she broke the ring end up being that reserved?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay, so what changed between then and now? Because in the present day, if anything Hydaelyn's problem has been underkill. She doesn't put forward enough to reliably kill the Ascians, which caused Lahabrea to live and caused Ardbert's attempt on Mitron's life to backfire. (Ysayle also failed when she tried to get her help, but it's hard to tell who's responsible for that one.)

How did a figure who apparently went so wild in the ring she broke the ring end up being that reserved?

---

Either loss of power over time, resulting in a return to sanity, or her own faction's failsafe being employed. Though it could also be a return to sanity since the prime directive was accomplished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

As per the title.

Ever since I first heard about the splitting of the world into the source of its fourteen shards, these questions have been kicking around in my mind non-stop. Was this event intentional? was it an accident? Or an unavoidable consequence of something? What are the SPECIFICS of this event, aetherologically speaking?

Was it really only Hydaelyn that was responsible for the sundering? or did Zodiark also play a part in it? What about the other parties involved, the convocation and Venat's secret sect? Are they also responsible in some more direct way?

So many questions bubbling in my mind, I really would like to hear your take in all this :D
So what you guys think?

---

When Emet talks about Hydaelyn's fight against Zodiark, he says that "your 'Mother' would probably tell a different story".
So I am guessing we will hear her side of the story.
+ we still need to find out why only 3 Ancients survived.

I should say that I'm not asking questions like that to shoot the theory down, I just believe that every theory has to at least be able to answer the most immediately realized evidence against it. Otherwise we hit stuff like that 'but what if Hydaelyn tempered the WoL' theory that completely ignores the fact that got shot down directly back in ARR.

I can't personally sign off on a theory that says Plan Hydaelyn basically immediately fell apart, though. Zodiark was formulated in a panic to solve a very weird problem, so it makes sense that it didn't work out perfectly. But Hydaelyn... Venat's crew had time, and clearly were composed of people that were pretty thoughtful. I can imagine that their plan frayed over time, but I don't see them coming up with a plan that went off the rails, like, minutes after they did The Big Part--and certainly not before. I don't know if their game plan involved sundering the planet, but I can't imagine that their response to doing so was 'whoops'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnix

When Emet talks about Hydaelyn's fight against Zodiark, he says that "your 'Mother' would probably tell a different story".
So I am guessing we will hear her side of the story.
+ we still need to find out why only 3 Ancients survived.

---

Personally, my theory for this one is that those three were, by happenstance, not on the planet when it got sundered. I think we're gonna find out when we get to Mare Lamentorum that Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus were up there for some unrelated reason; they weren't trying to dodge the blast, but they happened to be clear of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnix

When Emet talks about Hydaelyn's fight against Zodiark, he says that "your 'Mother' would probably tell a different story".
So I am guessing we will hear her side of the story.
+ we still need to find out why only 3 Ancients survived.

---

We already got her version of the story, which was a lie(At the end of Antitower). Here's to hoping we get the actual truth that lieth at the heart of the world the next time!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Personally, my theory for this one is that those three were, by happenstance, not on the planet when it got sundered. I think we're gonna find out when we get to Mare Lamentorum that Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus were up there for some unrelated reason; they weren't trying to dodge the blast, but they happened to be clear of it.

---

But that's assuming the Moon predates the sundering and was not impacted by it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I should say that I'm not asking questions like that to shoot the theory down, I just believe that every theory has to at least be able to answer the most immediately realized evidence against it. Otherwise we hit stuff like that 'but what if Hydaelyn tempered the WoL' theory that completely ignores the fact that got shot down directly back in ARR.

I can't personally sign off on a theory that says Plan Hydaelyn basically immediately fell apart, though. Zodiark was formulated in a panic to solve a very weird problem, so it makes sense that it didn't work out perfectly. But Hydaelyn... Venat's crew had time, and clearly were composed of people that were pretty thoughtful. I can imagine that their plan frayed over time, but I don't see them coming up with a plan that went off the rails, like, minutes after they did The Big Part--and certainly not before. I don't know if their game plan involved sundering the planet, but I can't imagine that their response to doing so was 'whoops'.



Personally, my theory for this one is that those three were, by happenstance, not on the planet when it got sundered. I think we're gonna find out when we get to Mare Lamentorum that Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus were up there for some unrelated reason; they weren't trying to dodge the blast, but they happened to be clear of it.

---

The thing about Plan Hydaelyn is that it was driven by the fears of a select minority, not chosen to lead, who in essence copied the basis of what had already been done with Zodiark, though since they could not make her as powerful, they designed a mechanism by which she could achieve parity (at least in battle, and what else could such an ability achieve?).

Basically, Team Hydaelyn performed a Coup d'état. We don't even know every single member of the team's motivation for that, either. Sure, Venat was pure of heart and didn't want to speak ill of the Convocation and wanted harmony... but others were quick to call them fools, obviously of the mind that they were superior, at least in thought, to the Convocation. Who then, among them, was of the mind that Venat's sensibilities were not the way forward once Zodiark was under control.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Do you really think Hydaelyn's construction went straight from her berthing pool to fight Zodiark without opposition? It is very likely she first sundered individuals or their summons/creations, as they attacked her to stop her(as well as tempered more to her cause).

---

Yes I do think Hydaelyn was created and immediately latched onto Zodiark – not to fight him but to keep him in check, whatever that check was. She was designed as a counterbalance to his power, so why would she not be immediately applied to do that function?

My personal speculative take on it is that Zodiark was designed to be 100% of the will of the star; Hydaelyn was designed to be 50% and perceived Zodiark acting on his own programming as "overstepping his half". And reached a logical conclusion that her own creators had not conceived of her attempting, which was thinking that Zodiark had to be depowered to maintain the balance between the two of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Yes I do think Hydaelyn was created and immediately latched onto Zodiark – not to fight him but to keep him in check, whatever that check was. She was designed as a counterbalance to his power, so why would she not be immediately applied to do that function?

My personal speculative take on it is that Zodiark was designed to be 100% of the will of the star; Hydaelyn was designed to be 50% and perceived Zodiark acting on his own programming as "overstepping his half". And reached a logical conclusion that her own creators had not conceived of her attempting, which was thinking that Zodiark had to be depowered to maintain the balance between the two of them.

---

But they did fight and were separate beings. We have ample evidence for that. She faced massive resistance in the form of the majority of Ancient society and the Convocation(and of course Zodiark himself).

I mean, I won't completely discount the idea that she could have been a split personality installed into Zodiark(or something like that). Like insert Peg: Venat into Slot: Heart, maybe it's even what pushed Elidibus out into his ever deteriorating primal form, but that doesn't sound any better to me(and makes less sense with what we've been given in SHB).

Also, she was less powerful than Zodiark from her inception, so enervation had to be at the forefront of her abilities. That is the first thing that came to mind when designing her. There couldn't possibly be parity between the two otherwise, and thus she could not restrict him. Like a police officer can't restrain a suspect without subduing them and cuffing them, requiring some sort of takedown technique or a taser.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

She faced massive resistance in the form of the majority of Ancient society and the Convocation(and of course Zodiark himself).

---

Actually... we don't have that.

Remember that both our sources for this are in some way biased: Emet-Selch and the Convocation obviously wanted to do their thing, and so kept talking up that side, but it was all about necessity rather than public support. Meanwhile, Venat's crew do say that their support is 'few, far fewer than those who support Zodiark', but there's no indication of either group's relative size or proportion of the population. In fact, while I'm wary of digging into the semantics of the English script since I know that's subject to some artistic liberties, it actually sounds like neither have a whole lot of fervent support.

So it's not 'a vast majority of support vs. a small group of dissenters', it's 'thirteen members of government and an unclear amount of supporters versus an also-unclear but potentially smaller opposition group'. And in fact, without anything suggesting that Amaurot's government was democratically elected, we can't even assume that they have popular support. Remember, we never really see a lot of average Ancients; we only meet Emet's selective memories of those around the seat of government (so basically just the Amaurotian equivalent of the DC beltway), and then an opposition meeting in an impartial recording.

Incidentally, I counted, and there are exactly thirteen Ancients visible in the meeting in Anamnesis. So by pure headcount of 'confirmed support vs. confirmed oppose', without knowing any non-present believers on either side, they're in a dead heat, which feels deliberate. (And as someone who's attended political meetings in libraries, I can tell you, that would NOT be 100% of the group.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Zodiark was formulated in a panic to solve a very weird problem, so it makes sense that it didn't work out perfectly. But Hydaelyn... Venat's crew had time, and clearly were composed of people that were pretty thoughtful.

---

I mean to be fair the convocation did also have time It can just be argued they used it poorly. The calamity of the unsundered world wasn't an immediate "Snap now were all dead" we know from “Debate and Discourse” that there was a large enough time for even the citizens of Amaurot to have lengthy discussions on the direction the world was heading. I previously made a post under the "Zodiark Good or Evil" thread but to sum it up is the fact that the situation was far too complex to binary define who was right and who was wrong. Amaurot had hours to spend but focused too much on their play book of parley that they went into overtime and Zodiark was the most realistic option to successfully save their people (To them of course)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Basically, Team Hydaelyn performed a Coup d'état. We don't even know every single member of the team's motivation for that, either. Sure, Venat was pure of heart and didn't want to speak ill of the Convocation and wanted harmony... but others were quick to call them fools, obviously of the mind that they were superior, at least in thought, to the Convocation. Who then, among them, was of the mind that Venat's sensibilities were not the way forward once Zodiark was under control.

---

Your question leads me back to something else I personally hope Endwalker answers. That being WHY did Venat HAVE to be Hydaelyn? She was basically the "CEO of Hydaelyn" so why give herself up instead of leading her group after Hydaelyn comes into existence? The quest "Beneath the surface" shows that one of her compatriots implores her to not sacrifice herself and instead choose one of them. She immediately shuts that down by saying.

Venat
"You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark.
If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart."

Why was Venat so special? Why did it have to be her and no one else?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Maybe Zodiark himself asked Hydaelyn to sunder the star.
"Hey Hydaelyn, my followers keep wanting to sacrifice new life to bring back their friends, I suggest you sunder me and the star to put a stop to this"
"Cool, I'll do it"

---

They didn’t keep sacrificing life to bring back their friends lol. They sacrificed twice to save the world. The third set of sacrifices was to bring back their loved ones which didn’t go through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

At this point, I'm very much expecting a third party entity to ultimately be to blame for the entire predicament. Potentially the very same entity that caused the Sound. The writers have, thankfully, been pretty clear at establishing the nuance of the situation. Neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn are necessarily 'good' or 'evil'. It's all very much a matter of perspective. So, too, does that apply to the Ancients and the Ascians, the Sundered and the Unsundered. They all have their own goals, dreams, desires and a will to live.

I also suspect that the Warrior of Light will go the way of Azem and seek to find a 'third way' when it comes to solving the plight that is the Sound. Especially if the Final Days are indeed returning for a second time in the same form as before. Or, alternatively, perhaps the story will involve Hydaelyn and Zodiark being brought together in a state of balance - given that the Sundering has been described as an 'unstable state' by the writers themselves in the past.

Whether Venat is an antagonist or not, I suppose, depends entirely on a few key factors such as whether the Sundering was accidental or intentional.

My own personal hope is for the story to set aside differences, acknowledge each side as having understandable motivations and then have everyone come together to beat the Sound which may or may not be a Lavos or Jenova type entity in typical JRPG fashion.

---

Pretty much my hopes as well. I think in her faction's case, well intentioned but perhaps misplaced concerns were exploited to create an opening for the crisis's originating source to reassert itself. I have a hunch that it used that as an opportunity to take over Zodiark, once weakened, and in this final battle will attempt to do the same again but not just to him. Stories verging on how more potent beings such as the ancients could only but be destroyed or "deserved" it or somesuch are unlikely to appeal much to me, particularly when races like dragons seem to elude such treatment. Not like we have to sunder the elder dragons because of the great power their eyes hold. If age old grievances could be put aside between man and these alien, and very potent beings, so too can reconciliation be achieved between unsundered and the sundered fragments of their race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

I mean to be fair the convocation did also have time It can just be argued they used it poorly. The calamity of the unsundered world wasn't an immediate "Snap now were all dead" we know from “Debate and Discourse” that there was a large enough time for even the citizens of Amaurot to have lengthy discussions on the direction the world was heading. I previously made a post under the "Zodiark Good or Evil" thread but to sum it up is the fact that the situation was far too complex to binary define who was right and who was wrong. Amaurot had hours to spend but focused too much on their play book of parley that they went into overtime and Zodiark was the most realistic option to successfully save their people (To them of course)

---

We know that they researched the origin of the crisis and sought means to address it. While one can speculate that their time was used poorly, it's not really confirmed one way or another, anywhere, to my knowledge. At the time it was occurring overseas, and already then they were devising a solution to it. The situation may well have ramped up at an exponential pace. Considering the unique nature of the crisis, they were probably taking a very cautious approach to how to resolve it, because it could exploit their very mental faculties and let their innate powers run amok once it had done so. It is very possible that the crisis, if manufactured, was made to look as natural and difficult to separate from natural phenomena as possible, and only to trigger at the right moment - certainly, the fact that Fandaniel can reproduce this crisis even without creation magicks being available to the sundered, should raise eyebrows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

Your question leads me back to something else I personally hope Endwalker answers. That being WHY did Venat HAVE to be Hydaelyn? She was basically the "CEO of Hydaelyn" so why give herself up instead of leading her group after Hydaelyn comes into existence? The quest "Beneath the surface" shows that one of her compatriots implores her to not sacrifice herself and instead choose one of them. She immediately shuts that down by saying.

Venat
"You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark.
If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart."

Why was Venat so special? Why did it have to be her and no one else?

---

It's why I think they may be aiming for a Yunalesca reference with her - similar belief in her methods and an insistence that her champion adhere to them. As opposed to them doing something like turning her into an outright villain, which so far I do not see as plausible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They didn’t keep sacrificing life to bring back their friends lol. They sacrificed twice to save the world. The third set of sacrifices was to bring back their loved ones which didn’t go through.

---

Exactly, and that's a problem.

The first two groups of sacrifices went willingly so that other things would not die in their stead, and the world would thrive because of their actions.

If I'd done that and then found myself "back again" to learn that the things I'd sacrificed myself for had been sacrificed in turn to bring me back, undoing what I had given my life for, I don't think I'd be too impressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Exactly, and that's a problem.

The first two groups of sacrifices went willingly so that other things would not die in their stead, and the world would thrive because of their actions.

If I'd done that and then found myself "back again" to learn that the things I'd sacrificed myself for had been sacrificed in turn to bring me back, undoing what I had given my life for, I don't think I'd be too impressed.

---

That’s you though, not them. We don’t have their thoughts or perspectives at all but, i’d say that’s a much better outcome than the world being shattered and every single being living then being torn away and split from their friends and family, with their knowledge on the matter stripped away(implied purposely.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

Why was Venat so special? Why did it have to be her and no one else?

---

I'm sure we'll find out in Endwalker. I feel like for the past 2 years people have been making a lot of assumptions based on only half of the information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

It's why I think they may be aiming for a Yunalesca reference with her - similar belief in her methods and an insistence that her champion adhere to them. As opposed to them doing something like turning her into an outright villain, which so far I do not see as plausible.

---

That's pretty sound and something I agree with.

In my eyes one of the main messages across a lot of final fantasy games is that even if people have "good" or "morally sound" motivations in their eyes, the actions they take is what defines it. Your endgame can be the most seen as righteous whether its restoring a world you have lost, avenging a loved one, or wanting to bring world peace but when your balance is all out of wack and you start punishing the descendants of the perpetrators, try to rule with an iron fist or start committing mass genocide is when you are painted as "a villain".

My personal expectation that has been echoed throughout the forum but I hope comes to pass nonetheless is that Hydaelyn/Venat tried their best for the people and the world they loved. Just like parents in real life the mother crystal wasn't right 100 percent of the time and didn't keep it 100 percent honest with the WoL but she still shielded us from Ultima and she cares at least a little bit.

(Unless we learn that people piloting the hearts of the Oldest "primals" are conscious during the entire time and she deliberately sundered the world knowingly that would be kinda suspect)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm sure we'll find out in Endwalker. I feel like for the past 2 years people have been making a lot of assumptions based on only half of the information.

---

But also isn't that the fun of discussion? Even if were all completely off base just getting to chat with other people about a game we all love is fulfilling in itself!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s you though, not them.

---

Alright then. I am pretty sure that anyone who willingly sacrificed themself to save to world would not be impressed to find themself back alive and told that it's because the thing they'd sacrificed for had in turn been sacrificed to undo their work – just because their friend couldn't cope with the fact that they were dead.

And I don't know how the Sundering comes into this, because that's not the choice that the Ascians were making. It was between letting the world that their friends willingly gave their lives for continue to grow and flourish, or to undo that work.

As for Hydaelyn's summoners? Assuming they were not in fact malevolent "let's shatter the world just for fun" types, they presumably either didn't know they were going to cause the Sundering, or it was the least worst option and the alternative was actually worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Alright then. I am pretty sure that anyone who willingly sacrificed themself to save to world would not be impressed to find themself back alive and told that it's because the thing they'd sacrificed for had in turn been sacrificed to undo their work – just because their friend couldn't cope with the fact that they were dead.

And I don't know how the Sundering comes into this, because that's not the choice that the Ascians were making. It was between letting the world that their friends willingly gave their lives for continue to grow and flourish, or to undo that work.

As for Hydaelyn's summoners? Assuming they were not in fact malevolent "let's shatter the world just for fun" types, they presumably either didn't know they were going to cause the Sundering, or it was the least worst option and the alternative was actually worse.

---

I brought up the sundering because i originally was making a comment about the sacrifices. You brought up how it was “wrong” in your opinion. We don’t know if the ancients who sacrificed themselves had perhaps been told they’d try to bring them back once all is said and done, there’s many unknowns. They were sacrificed to save the planet. They did so and the last set of sacrifices wasn’t going to destroy the planet again so that argument is moot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I brought up the sundering because i originally was making a comment about the sacrifices. You brought up how it was “wrong” in your opinion. We don’t know if the ancients who sacrificed themselves had perhaps been told they’d try to bring them back once all is said and done, there’s many unknowns. They were sacrificed to save the planet. They did so and the last set of sacrifices wasn’t going to destroy the planet again so that argument is moot.

---

But it does mean their sacrifice was for nothing. Imagine sacrificing yourself to save the world, being brought back, and the people you loved are no longer themselves, they're fanatics towards the god you helped create. And they sacrificed other life that did not consent to do it, something that goes against everything your entire society and culture was for. It's very likely you'd say you never would have done it to begin with if it was going to lead to this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But it does mean their sacrifice was for nothing. Imagine sacrificing yourself to save the world, being brought back, and the people you loved are no longer themselves, they're fanatics towards the god you helped create. And they sacrificed other life that did not consent to do it, something that goes against everything your entire society and culture was for. It's very likely you'd say you never would have done it to begin with if it was going to lead to this.

---

They weren’t outright fanatics though lol. We’re literally shown that. They even said in a recent interview a primal can dictate how tempered they make their followers and in the ascians case it clearly wasn’t very strong of a tempering considering half of the convocation was opposed to the sacrifices at first and this was post tempering. Read the short stories.

How doesn't seem like it needs to be answered. Between Hydaelyn's take on events back during Heavensward (she defeated Zodiark, bound him to the Moon, and divided the world into the Source and Thirteen Shards), Emet-Selch's take on events (Hydaelyn used the heretofore unheard of power of enervation to dilute Zodiark's power), and Venat's take on events (only she could serve as Hydaelyn's heart if She were to have any hope of defeating Zodiark), it seems fairly obvious to me that Hydaelyn alone is responsible for the "How".

The "Why" is considerably more vague, and I'd say it all hinges on two factors. The first: Are the two separate goals assigned to Hydaelyn's summoners complementary or contradictory?

If the former is the case, then it would be incredibly difficult to believe that the Sundering was an intentional act on Venat's part. I somehow doubt the big plan to save everyone from being sacrificed to Zodiark was to Logan's Run them to death. But it leaves open the possibility that Venat could not control Hydaelyn, creating a rift between the characters' wants. Alternatively, Venat is just ridiculously shortsighted and the whole Sundering was a terrible accident.

If the latter is the case, then it means that Emet-Selch was wrong about Venat's goals. That the intent behind Hydaelyn's summoning was not to stop anyone from being sacrificed, but specifically to shackle Zodiark and (somehow) stop the Final Days. This still leaves the possibility that the Sundering was accidental/a conflict of interests between Venat and Hydaelyn, but also opens up the possibility that it was very much an intentional act—an extreme means justified, at least from Venat or Hydaelyn's point of view, by the ends: A permanent end to the Final Days.

… of course, the events of Endwalker are no doubt going to prove that Venat's solution wasn't permanent. That could be because Zodiark is now powerful enough to break free from his prison, and his affinity for Darkness is somehow connected to the Final Days. Or it could be because Hydaelyn was holding back the Final Days in addition to sealing Zodiark, and becoming weak enough to fail at one necessarily meant failing the other as well. Or maybe the Final Days were always inevitable, and Hydaelyn only delayed the event (or had no effect on it at all!).

Or maybe the Shoebill is the mastermind.

All that said, I do hope they don't just gloss over the effects of the Sundering. That would, well, kind of piss me off. Venat was a well-intentioned extremist in FFXII, and to make her XIV counterpart unambiguously good by ignoring the consequences of her actions would never sit right with me.

Then again, if a certain Tales from the Shadows short story is any indication, they could just as easily write their way out of the Sundering having ever happened in the first place, as ludicrous as that sounds. I'm thinking some "Source+Shards are really Dream Zanarkand" kind of deal.



EDIT: I forgot to get to what I thought the second factor would be, and it's so many hours that I've actually forgotten what I wanted to say, lol. I think it was something like "What actually caused the Final Days to begin with?". Venat and her followers seemed to have some understanding of this, but did not elaborate further on it than "the Final Days will come again".

I'm of two minds on this: That the cause of the Final Days was something intrinsic to the way the Source worked, or that it was an extrinsic force acting on the planet. In the former case, it could be something like "the collective unconscious" or a repeat of the Phoenix incident (another Tales from the Shadows short story) on a global level. And in the latter case, it could be something like an interstellar parasite (Lavos/Jenova/etc.) or some kind of temporal malfunction (Zodiark and/or Hydaelyn retroactively causing the conditions that led to their sudden existence).

That last one would be hell to explain, and would probably annoy everyone because time travel. Personally, I am also not fond of the idea that "The Sound" was caused by a living thing with a name and a face. A lot of effort would have to be put into justifying why the WoL and a bunch of other sundered goons can walk up and punch it to death when the Unsundered had to rely on reality warping memetic gods just to hold it at bay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually... we don't have that.

---

Actually, we do.

If the Convocation didn't have stark support for Zodiark, then the population wouldn't have sacrificed twice to him. They had wide support, as most governments do during crisis or even perceived crisis. They continued having support after the fact due to being deemed the wisest and most learned by most of the Ancients of their nation(and by Through His Eyes short, most powerful). Not too mention actually having saved and restored the world through their own ingenuity, and by sacrificing one of their own members to do it. This all on top of a promise that they could restore the Amaurotine society to the before times, eventually. And in those before times we learn from side Amaurotine street talk dialogue that there have been previous calamities that the Convocation saved their people from.

So it's the bulk of what's left of Amaurotine society vs. a small group of dissenters who openly admit they are the much smaller group(who also admit they will be forever reviled for their actions). While the exact numbers are unclear, no amount of mental handstands are going to incline that fact favorably towards your assertion. Remember, Team Hydaelyn isn't merely opposing the will of the living at this point as well.


Of course, we don't know the specific motivations of the populace by this point. Whether it's mostly fear of the unknown, tempering, or just standard goodly Amaurotine obeisance. Probably a little column A, little column B.

The dead heat showing is keeping with what we care about as readers. FFXIV always keeps us focused on the pivotal leaders and historical groups within the MSQ. It had the intended effect, I think, of making us compare Team Hydaelyn's number to that of The Twelve. Got us clamoring with theories and talking shop.

By the by, the script's localizations are made in tandem, from what I understand. So it's artistic vision all around. It's not operating like a typical anime dub. We do gain insights and people do stock more faith in the JP script, myself included, but there are times where the JP takes from the English rather than vice versa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

By the by, the script's localizations are made in tandem, from what I understand. So it's artistic vision all around. It's not operating like a typical anime dub. We do gain insights and people do stock more faith in the JP script, myself included, but there are times where the JP takes from the English rather than vice versa.

---

Everything else on this is mostly just trying to decipher what we ultimately have very little information on (and information we know to be incomplete and will be added onto in the future, at that, so we know we don't have the full picture), but I will mention this one just as a general outline of how I approach this stuff:

While all the localizations are indeed developed in tandem, and so there aren't mistranslations or inaccuracies, there are occasional spots of linguistic flourish that will probably send you down the wrong path if you take very specific wording to be a clue. The example that kinda introduced that to me was Fandaniel talking about the End of Days to Zenos; in English he says his knowledge is 'mostly secondhand', which if you take as written, is super suspicious; how does someone have 'mostly secondhand' knowledge of the end of the goddamn world? But it becomes rather less suspicious when you realize that in other languages he's more saying that it's 'a story he heard' or 'hearsay', which is still curious (after all, what reason does he have to cast doubt on the story as we know it) but less weirdly particular. Since we know that the writers wouldn't intentionally give one language more information than the others, we can reason that 'mostly secondhand' isn't something we're meant to underline and put on the corkboard full of newspaper clippings.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to meticulously check the exact same text box across every single language. So the best I can do is recognize that dipping into exact peculiarities of very specific word choice is probably a much less useful way of reading things than grasping the overall intention and tone of a message. So in this case, the English script having a possible subtle reading that both Zodiark and Hydaelyn supporters are minorities in greater Amaurotian society... it needs more evidence than 'curious word choice'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

So in this case, the English script having a possible subtle reading that both Zodiark and Hydaelyn supporters are minorities in greater Amaurotian society... it needs more evidence than 'curious word choice'.

---

I get what you mean with the first bit here. I've been opposed quite readily for picking up on English word choice in other scenes, where JP FR or DE script turn what I thought was an amazing read into a nothing-burger(though apparently sometimes this makes people realize other cool things from the surrounding context).

I don't get this sentence though. Are you saying you can't nail down your assertion? I mean, that's how it reads since I'm going with the angle of what's presented in the game(and doubt the other language scripts can do much to reverse that). I've said that Zodiark supporters are the majority of Amaurotine society. You said we can't be sure of that, even though it's given to us in triplicate in game. Once by Hythlodaeus, once by Emet-selch, and once by Venat's holo record. We could say Hythlodaeus and Emet-selch are the same source, so of course they agree. Despite that bias, Venat, the dissenter's side, also agrees. So what's the hang up?

@OP: It’s a tricky situation. As we understand it, Zodiark was created to represent the will of the planet, and to bend the rules in order to block or otherwise dampen the effects of the Sound.

We also understand that, as Zodiark is a primal, he is not actually the will of the planet, but a primal created to do what the Ascians envisioned would be their ideal for this. Being a primal we can assume this required huge amounts of aether, with continued sacrifices.

Hydaelyn then was created to overthrow and otherwise contain Zodiark and also not require huge amounts of aether/sacrifice (going against her nature as a primal).

I believe it was not intentional to sunder the world, but that it was just the end result of their conflict.

This creates a series of problems though:

Without Zodiark, Hydaelyn has no purpose. What happens to her then?
Does either of their existence have anything to do with maintaining the multiverse as we know it?
Without Zodiark’s existence silencing the sound…what happens to the Sound (cue Lavos roar at end of 6.0 credits).

@Zodiark Supporters in Amaurot:

I was always under the impression that the Amaurotians were a mostly homogenous society, so that when the idea of summoning Zodiark came up, most of the society just agreed/went along with the leaders (who are now the Ascians).

And I remember that while there were disagreements and debate, it was shocking for a group to splinter off and actually oppose the main body, more so that this splinter group ultimately created Hydaelyn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I don't get this sentence though. Are you saying you can't nail down your assertion? I mean, that's how it reads since I'm going with the angle of what's presented in the game(and doubt the other language scripts can do much to reverse that). I've said that Zodiark supporters are the majority of Amaurotine society. You said we can't be sure of that, even though it's given to use in triplicate in game. Once by Hythlodaeus, once by Emet-selch, and once by Venat's holo record. We could say Hythlodaeus and Emet-selch are the same source, so of course they agree. Despite that bias, Venat, the dissenter's side, also agrees. So what's the hang up?

---

What I mean is that the actual wording of that line in English ("You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark.") could be read as meaning that Zodiark support also isn't all that big, but the core intention is clearly that Venat's crew is going up against a relative giant, and any indication of the Zodiark support's comparative size is incidental. If every single script confirmably said much the same thing, then it could have weight, but there's easy ways to write that in ways that don't suggest Zodiark support is also small ("Those that support our cause are dwarfed by those that support Zodiark", for example).

Basically: as interesting as I find that reading of that line, by itself it's extremely weak evidence I can't stand behind.

By the way, you do keep mentioning the sacrifices as if it's confirmable indication that Zodiark support is in the majority, but there's two things to take into account there:
1. We don't actually know how willing those sacrifices were. The initial sacrifices were probably ultimately voluntary, albeit under duress ("we're all gonna die anyway, no reason not to"), but all our knowledge of the second sacrifice's existence comes from a single Hythlodaeus text box that at the very least confirms it wasn't in red-alert contexts. Again, we don't necessarily know that Amaurot was democratic, it'd be a fair belief that they didn't necessarily go purely voluntary on that one.
2. Even if it was purely voluntary (in fact, especially if it was)... remember that at that point, they were down to roughly 25% of the population, and that 25% were the people who refused/dodged calls to sacrifice to Zodiark twice. Chances are most of Zodiark's actual opposition is still standing, while most of Zodiark's true believers have by now jumped in the grinder.

We're probably never going to get actual numbers for either, but I do think it's folly to assume that, especially by the end, Hydaelyn support was a small cell of extremists.